Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why do many RPG fans hate crafting?

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
I don't hate crafting if it is done properly. Fallout 4 has great crafting as it allows you to modify different aspects of guns and power armor, it isn't perfect and in some cases most mods are just better versions of previous ones but the fact that you can change raider assault rifle into submachine gun or dragunov-like sniper rifle is great idea. Plus the fact that all the junk in the game is useful now. The example of bad crafting is in Witcher 3 as witcher gear is no doubt the best equipment in the game and it requires you to run back and forth from shopkeepers because you miss some basic ingredients to craft next tier ingredient to craft your desired item, you also have to run to some locations filled with enemies to receive schematics. If you could find armor in treasure quest or something and then just go to blacksmith to let him upgrade it for you just with gold and some rare monster pelts then it would be far better than what is right now. Just think how ridiculously hard and expensive it is to make grandmaster tier witcher gear, how much gold you needed for all these ingredients and how much pointless switching between menus you needed to make in order to craft the darn thing. In Fallout 4 you just need to find right amounts of junk or buy it from shopkeeper and you can craft desired mod. Or you can loot your said weapon mod from your enemies and then transfer it to your own gun. The crafting menus are much easier to navigate.

Of course settlement building in Fallout 4 is shit.
 

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
Though I did have a fire mage in an old pen an paper campaign who made a small business casting continual light on pebbles, an sellin em to peasantry.
If a continual light spell is cast on a pebble, and the pebble is later destroyed, what happens to the continual light? :philosoraptor:

This reminds me of an old Dragon magazine that said that continual light causes the object to very slowly lose mass as it is really being converted into light. The old 20th century nerd idiom meant that weird magic physics still had to obey mass-energy equivalence.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
I think you would end up with glitterdust that's permanent until it's washed off.
Come one, come all! I, Delterius, the Grand Wizard bring to you miserable peasants these glorious LIGHTSTONES! Gaze upon the mystic arts and rejoice!

*Throws glitter at the pebbles*

Crafting at its finest, gentlemen.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,910
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
Player shouldn't be a vagabond blacksmith, I think that's the problem. Crafting if it's limited to unique and rare items can be cool. If you make it a chore alternative to finding items it becomes boring repetition. Make it a discovery where you find pieces and bits of a legendary item that you have to gather together and then bring to a blacksmith to craft you one of a kind equipment and it will be fun. How crafting is usually implement also feels less rewarding ironically, because when you kill a powerful enemy and take their items you feel rewarded and accomplished, the item feels like it belongs to you now, while acquiring some powerful item by crafting, which could be any other item if you chose to craft it instead detaches from the experience. If it's part treasure hunt, part crafting and part exploration, it can be memorable.
 
Last edited:

gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,159
Location
ХУДШИЕ США
What everybody said on page 1. It's feature bloat. Crafting, inventory tetris, adventure-game puzzles, minigames, genre-blending... it all sounds innovative in theory, and you can point to great games that successfully incorporated 1 or 2 disparate features into their core mechanics. But 99% of the time it's just uninspired cargo-cult game design. Or design by committee.

You would think the fine folks at Obsidian, Larian, etc would have mastered the concept of Less Is More by now; i.e. use your best material and leave out the banal shit. Obviously they haven't. I blame Kickstarter for putting 77000+ wannabe game designers in the driver's seat.
 

Bohrain

Liturgist
Patron
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,458
Location
norf
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Crafting can be done well, the demon fusion in SMT series is something I consider fairly interesting. Most of the time the crafting just means doing tedious and time consuming shit just to get something that isn't particularly interesting, demon fusions are a bit more exciting since it revolves around hard counters you need to constantly adapt around and the demon designs have more character than your usual "Edgemaster's glowing sword of +10 damage".
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,976
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think I like crafting in a game (be it RPG or not) that is designed around it.

But in almost all RPGs I know it is a feature that might as well be left away and the game wouldn't be worse for it.
In many cases, the results of crafting aren't even better than what you find in the world. And even if they were, the game is easy enough without the bother.
Another problem is that usually, you are playing an adventurer roaming the world (either open or linear, doesn't really matter). It doesn't sound or feel very adventurous to stop for a couple of days (realistically speaking) to craft a sword because it might be minimally better, does it?

So, in the end there are reasons from within the game mechanics as well as from immersion that make crafting so worthless for many.


Feels weird to say this, but it is actually not that badly implemented in Fallout 4. Ha! I found something good about that game! ;)
The basic idea is that everything consist of a number of base materials (wood, steel, adhesive, leather, etc. ...) and you can break existing items into those basics or form new stuff & additions from those basics. Simple, but it works. Far better than having to grind some very specific plant or whatever.
The weapons and armor you find in that game are usually not better than your stuff, so it is worthwhile picking a good base weapon and then modify it (you even have to invest some points at level-up to unlock the even good modifications, RPG!)
Then there is the whole settlement crafting stuff which is fine if you even care about that part of the game (which you probably shouldn't since it actually has no real point in the game).

Mind you, the crafting interface still sucks, but that is thanks to console degeneration.
Also mind you, that doesn't make it a good game, but if its other parts were on par with the crafting of weapons/armors, it probably would be one.
 

agentorange

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,256
Location
rpghq (cant read codex pms cuz of fag 2fa)
Codex 2012
I don't dislike crafting, I dislike the design decisions that are often made to accommodate crafting, most of which are interrelated: lack of thoughtful gear progression, randomized gear properties, prevalence of junk items, encouragement of hoarding.

There is also a diminishing sense of importance for each piece of gear, each item, each trinket that ends up in the game. You end up with 18 different flamethrowers with some minute stat difference or bonuses and none of it seems to matter. This was a problem that I had with Underrail, where a machine gun that should always be of some use in a post-apocalyptic survival situation seems utterly useless because it has 1 less point of damage than another machine gun.
 

mutonizer

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
1,041
I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, and I've got a number of theories on the topic, but let's try to examine this widely held prejudice.
I will say one thing: I'm not convinced by arguments like the often-seem claim that "I don't like crafting because it makes finding loot in the world feel useless!". Arguments like that sound to me more like rationalizations for why crafting shouldn't be in the game than a genuine reason for why you don't enjoy using it when it is there. If you don't like crafting, you're not going to use it, so it wouldn't make the loot feel useless to you.
So, bonus points for theories that actually examine the act of crafting and explain what's wrong with it.

Without crafting, the game states that you don't really have control, that it's designed that way and you just accept it from the get go.
With crafting, the game states that it gives you some kind of control and therefore responsibility but then couple problems often arise:
- First, failed expectations since a loot (random or designed) is just "game" loot out of your own control and if it sucks, it's not your fault. A crafted loot means you are responsible and if it sucks, it's your own damn fault.
- Second, it's more and more treated as some kind of short term drug dispenser requiring near manic item collection that are completely irrelevant for the actual game and irrational for most character you're playing, for which you often forget why you're doing it and yet because it's there you feel forced into doing it, meaning it puts a constant high/low dopamine/whatever rush that in the end just fucks you up, craving for more shit that you hate doing. I mean, compare how cool you are when dealing with nearly 100% old school abstracted crafting in ToEE and how mental people get now when thinking about crafting shit in games like Divinity, Witcher, Dragon Age 3 and other games. They don't even know why the fuck they are collecting EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME, it doesn't make any fucking sense for their character but it's everywhere and their radar or some shit CONSTANTLY nags them like a drug pusher.

TL;DR: "Modern" collection/crafting systems are cancer. Kill them and all who design them with fire. Period.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
First and foremost, what crafting does is destroy one of the three major impetuses to adventuring. Essentially, one goes into the ruins of Rome a fallen empire that is infested with various brown peoples humanoids in order to take the treasures that they have hoarded, both treasures of that fallen empire and of their own making. But if the PC can make treasure just as good or better by staying at home and scrounging for 100 iron that the townsfolk have, for some reason, left lying around in their barrels, then there's no point to taking all of the time and assuming all of the risk of adventuring in order to seize the treasures of another kingdom. It's all just a waste of time and effort, and might get you killed over a few trinkets you could just as well find in five minutes in the various garbages around town back home.

But the people who should be really mad at crafting are those that tackle rpgs from a storyfag perspective. Rpgs already have only a limited number of ways for the PC to interact with the world around them in a meaningful way, and one of those few ways is the presence of experts. For instance, how did that ancient hermit on the mountain acquire his mastery of weaponsmithing? Why did he reject regular society and go live up on that mountain? What do the other, regular smiths of the world think of him? Why do you need access to the skill that the hermit has? The answers to those questions are one of the few ways that the PC has of learning about the nature of the world - that is, outside of how its dungeons and monsters operate. The presence of experts is what fills in the details of the world outside of adventuring. Take away interaction with experts, and the world becomes one step closer to being only a featureless spreadsheet for the PC to min/max upon.

Yet even more than that, crafting robs the PC (and the world around him) of character. The well-built modern PC is already a veritable demigod, superior to all other individuals in every adventuring way possible. He is a master of all things physical. Throw in being a master of all town skills, and the PC never need interact with anyone in the world in a normal way ever again. After all, you're not hammering a few nails into a club; no, you're forgins individual links and binding them together into chain mail, and then imbuing that chainmail with intricate scrolling, as well as scribing in various magical runes and effects, all topped off with artistic flairs of leatherwork and metal plates. This is not normal forge work. And so, with the addition of mastery of all those skills, the PC is then the one true god of the entire world, master of all skills and all physical abilities, with every other individual but a lowly peon to his sheer awesomitude. And that is highly problematic because character is what drives a good story. An individual's good points and bad points and how those two elements mix together are what makes a story have compelling moments. The individual's struggles as he utilizes his strengths to overcome his weaknesses and save the day - that is adventure. Making a PC master of everything thus means that the PC's character becomes flat and lifeless - just a boring 2D image of a teenage boy's ego/libido.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,601
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Is "tacked on" synonymous with "unfun"?
In this context? Absolutely. In an economy where crafting is unnecessary, it is literally meaningless. If I can ignore crafting in a game, I pretty much always do ... because it's not really part of the game at that point - it's just something to do.

"Just something to do" can even be fun sometimes, but the other thing about crafting is that it's not challenging. It's just a question of having a recipe and combining items, which is about as thrilling as pushing buttons on a calculator and watching numbers appear. At its most "challenging", you have to combine things without knowing the recipes, using brute force to try every combination, which is just tiresome.

Lastly, there's no sense of conflict or danger. The worst thing that can happen in crafting is you lose money or materials and have to start over. And the best thing that can happen is some stat will raise slightly. The stakes are so low that who cares?
 

IHaveHugeNick

Arcane
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,870,246
Crafting can be challenging, but it needs entire game designed around it. There's this very old MMORPG called Anarchy Online that I used to play hardcore way back in a day. Now that was a challenging crafting done properly. If you wanted to be competitive, you needed to overequip items far above your level (not uncommon to see level 40 character have level 200 implants or weapons for example). Overequiping required farming endless hundreds of buffing items, crafting additional hundreds of buffing items, making armor pieces that needed to have exact specific level, and so on. Experienced crafters who knew all the intricacies of the systems were worth their weight in gold.

Extraordinary game for it's time really, but eventually the decline era came and they've been dilluting the complexity out of it for about 10 years now.
 

huckc

Novice
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Messages
33
Kenshi has a pretty fleshed out and sophisticated crafting system, using multiple workers. Want to make a sword? First need to:
1. Mine the ore 2. Process the ore in a machine to make usable iron plates 3. Move that to another machine to make steel bars out of it

(Also need fabric which is another similar process.)

Sounds tedious but you can fully automate the process by assigning workers tasks with different priorities. For instance while the machine is processing you can have them mine or help tend the farms. Just need to shit+click the machines in the order of priority to assign tasks, no seperate crazy UI and they'll fetch the materials automatically.
 

Kaivokz

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
1,505
[...] crafting done properly. [...] you needed to overequip items [...] Overequiping required farming endless hundreds of buffing items, crafting additional hundreds of buffing items, making armor pieces that needed to have exact specific level, and so on.

What? It sounds like modern RPG crafting for autists. Like a bunch of people who get together to play DA:I but only do the filler collection quests.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,661
Here's a piece of my theory of crafting. My apologies for any pretentiousness.

Crafting is an an unwanted/unexpected expansion of the scope of character building. What is crafting, when it comes down it? It's a form of character building. You level up, you get a skill point, you spend that point to take a skill that make your character more powerful in some way. Crafting works similarly. You get crafting ingredients, you spend them to make an item that makes you more powerful in some way. Why is one of these accepted while the other is rejected?

Maybe it's because crafting is unstructured and unfocused. The game doesn't give you a routine time and place where You Must Craft (like the level up screen for skills). It's a fuzzy system that floats around in the fringes of the game, not having a definite place.
Your theory-first approach reminds me of the discussions I read on the codex a decade ago. I will posit an alternative explanation, which should cover most of the anecdotal complaints that others have made.

Crafting is an unwanted feature because it is not gameplay. The typical crafting interface is, at its core, a shopkeeper that performs currency conversion. Since the majority of RPGs do not generally put the players in the role of travelling merchant, the act of converting currency is not meaningful or fun.

As others have mentioned, crafting as implemented is often fixated on the gathering of materials. This gathering allows no player agency, as the zones a player can access are gated by non-crafting activities. Even the collecting of materials is not gameplay because the player must wait either for a random drop or for the designers to decide the composition of the next area allows for gathering something useful. Solving these problems with gathering is unlikely to make crafting engaging because that's not what crafting is. A blacksmith doesn't waste his days digging coal. A chef delegates shopping in the market.

For crafting to be truly compelling, there must be gameplay attached to the act of combining ingredients into new items. The simplistic approach here might be some form of mini-game. A proper approach would be create an entire game about crafting, not gathering, and distill those elements into a new template for crafting systems. A crafting game would want to incorporate elements of technique, mastery, efficiency, expediency, and creative use of basic techniques for advanced outcomes.


That's my theory. What would a game that accepts this theory look like if it asserted that crafting was a desirable feature?

A corollary of this theory is that crafting cannot be designed as it is today, as an add-on system by a junior designer who is instructed to create a time-sink. Crafting progress must have effects that players can see and look forward to improving.

This example is purposefully simple to illustrate the concept of "crafting as gameplay". I will use elements of Diablo II and Spacechem because people should be familiar with those games.

-Consider that weapons can have the properties they have in Diablo II: damage range, critical chance, speed, elemental bonuses, chance to cast a spell, a passive boost to skills, etc.

-Consider that crafting involves taking various enhancement components purchased or acquired through other game systems, many of which are tied to the listed weapon properties. (blue gem = slow on hit, rare rune = chance to cast nova on hit, etc.)

-Imagine that crafting to improve your weapon is not about combining materials, but how you combine materials. Instead of socketing an item, you go to a workbench and tinker with the item in the same manner as editing a factory in Spacechem. Different weapons have different properties based on their craftsmanship, and type. For example, more space to tinker with or additional waldos to manipulate.

-Crafting unlocks would include the additional assembly line instructions that become available as you progress in Spacechem. By creating these new crafting 'techniques' in various ways, better results can be obtained.

-Crafting choices determine weapon modifications. For example, the faster your crafting can take inputs and process them into outputs, the greater the weapon's haste. If the design also incorporates a red gem, which will hamper speed, the result will have fire damage. Is this a worthwhile trade-off? Well that depends on the monsters you are facing, and other character build choices.

-More potent crafting unlocks can come in multiple forms. Some can be strictly better, a numerical upgrade or a component that provides the same benefit while taking up less space. Others could be more drastic, such as reducing the crafting area to provide a passive +3 to a specific skill.

I've described an approach to offer item enchantment as "crafting gameplay". A similar design may also apply to an alchemist's lab. Leather working would be less applicable.
 
Last edited:

adrix89

Cipher
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
700
Location
Why are there so many of my country here?
Solving these problems with gathering is unlikely to make crafting engaging because that's not what crafting is.
But you don't have to. If you can make gathering interesting like for example the Darkest Dungeons expeditions that have increasing risks the more you stay as well as cost supplies.
Then the crafting can just be the rewards, you don't even have to do it yourself, let a blacksmith do it. If gathering is interesting the system overall can be interesting.
What crafting can give is a system of adaptability based on the resources you do have. Maybe you can't make the infinity +1 sword but maybe you can make the next best thing. And when you have real risks involved in collecting maybe what you can make now is just what you need.
If the resources can only be found in dungeons, like monster parts or enchanted ores and jewels that only grow in dungeons(do to magic shenanigans and living dungeons) then it can make sense.
 
Last edited:

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,161
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Arcanum: best form of crafting.
Achievement: the creation of murderhobo - a hobo who dumpsterdive to have item to craft tools to murder.
Illustration of char builds: gunman or grenadier. Possibly a mecha-owner also, but frankly the mecha spider is too heavy~
To answer OP's question: because a noticeable number of gamers hate the fiddly details that is required on playing such a build.
 

MilesBeyond

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2015
Messages
716
Yeah, I feel like there's something we need to isolate here, because any game with crafting from the early 2000s or before seems to either get praise for it, or at least not get criticised for it. Alchemy in Morrowind and Daggerfall, a ton of crafting in Arcanum if you play a techie, potion-making in the Might and Magic games, forging items in BG2, etc etc. While some are more "crafting-y" than others, all of them have to at least an extent a crafting system, and yet they don't get flak for it. So, I think if we can compare and contrast those systems to crappy crafting systems, we can get an idea of why people hate crafting.

First, it's entirely possible and indeed even likely that even in those games people hate crafting, just the game itself is good enough that they'll tolerate it. It's also totally possible that it's at least partially nostalgia goggles.

But I do think that there's something there worth examining. For example, one of the things I like most about Alchemy in Morrowind and crafting in general in Arcanum is the degree of improvisation they allow. I absolutely love the way that, in Morrowind for example, I can say "Ah crap, my level 2 character just bumped into a Flame Atronach. Wait a second, I wonder if I've got any ingredients I can combine into a Protection from Fire potion?"

Upon reflection, I feel like there are three things that make crafting good, or at least tolerable:

1. Straightforward. There is good complexity and there is bad complexity, and crafting can often fall into the latter. If crafting has intuitive mechanics and a simple interface, that's usually a good sign. If crafting provides you with twelve different options, each of which yields identical results, that's a bad sign.

2. Powerful. Nothing will turn me off of crafting more than when it doesn't make a significant difference. I feel like this is the issue I end up having with a lot of more recent RPGs - PoE in particular comes to mind. Crafting ends up being much ado about nothing, where you can spend half your game scouring the world for resources and end up with a consumable that gives your next two attacks +1 damage. Crafting needs to be powerful, or at least dramatic (e.g. in Arcanum a lot of the tech options aren't necessarily powerful but they can end up having a big impact on how you play the game, introducing options that may not have been available to you otherwise). Otherwise it just feels like a chore.

3. Unique. Crafting should provide the opportunity to acquire equipment and items that otherwise wouldn't be accessible, and may even be more powerful than what is available - or at the least, more specialized. If crafting doesn't do anything but help me get stuff a couple dungeons earlier than I would have gotten it anyway, I'm not really interested.
 

Jacob

Pronouns: Nick/Her
Patron
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
3,367
Location
Hatington
Grab the Codex by the pussy
actually, fallout 3's crafting is okay

you need the schematics, the weapons are unique and they are something that at least made sense for a post-apoc wanderer to make, you can ignore it but if you choose not to you could have access to some interesting weapons

doesn't feel like padding at all except if you chose to rely on bottlecap mine
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom