Why isn't Oblivion a RPG?

[Vault Dweller]

So as you see O. sucks at being an RPG and (picking from "big" titles) ToEE, Bloodlines or even.. KotOR2 are closer to RPG archetype. Do I deserve a dumbfuck now?

Are you stupid? Why should you get a dumbfuck for this at the codex?!

But you get dumbfucked for talking nice about KotOR2.

Stupid much? You will never ever get dumbfucked here for talking "nice" about ANY game, but you might get dumbfucked for stating such nonsense.

I know my ignorance is unforgivable but how did Volly got his title?

Volourn is a proof that you can like a game that the entire Codex hates and still be respected. He showed up at the Codex when NWN was trashed much like Oblivion is today, he stated his love for the game, gave his reasons and arguments, successfully defended his position and even trolled and baited many times, etc. Then he went nuts one day and started posting idiotic one-liner threads every fucking day. For a long time we tried to reason with him, out of respect that he earned, giving him enough time to grow tired and stop. He didn't. Probably a month later he was dumbfucked. That's the story.

 

[Micmu]

I know my ignorance is unforgivable but how did Volly got his title?

By hard work: http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=17&topicdays=0&start=400

 

[Mr Happy]

Those people include Bethesda programmer Steve Meister, who firmly retained that view despite patient attempts to explain why he should reconsider, in discussion with him at this forum.

Anybody have a link to this? Sounds like an interesting read.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Role Player: Wouldn't that just be doing what Bethesda have already done? Condensing things into one 'Meta' skill and leaving it at that?

Some skills are more likely to merit such a grouping then others. My point is not that they should do it, but that it's an acceptable (not necessarily better) perspective if you're faced with such a situation. Is it that much better to have four separate skills than a single one considering an equal amount of point dumping would provide the same results in both scenarios? Of course, I'm talking of the skill as presented above, ie, higher point dumping allowing creatures to avoid combat with the PC. If we were talking about the skill being given other uses such as the one I brought yp, I wouldn't suggest a grouping.

 

[Jim Kata]

Post your reasons why you think Oblivion isn't a RPG but an adventure game with RPG elements, or whatever else you think it is. What makes it any less of a RPG that Gothic 3 or Bloodlines for example. Let's not compare it with older pure RPG games, but rather with recent titles that can be considered more RPGs than anything else.

PS: This is a neutral post. I don't hate Oblivion nor do I love it. Just make your argument without flames.

Please stop calling games like obliviona dventure games. If there isn't a tentacle bent on world domination or a man in a leisure suit or a scumm parser or the words monkey island in the title, and it's not full of puzzles, it aint a fucking adventure game.

Oblivion, of course, is not an RPG, either.

 

[vazquez595654]

In my personal opinion...

Just shut the fuck up. Nothing good can come after that.

 

[WittyName]

It's more of an FPS/RPG hybrid and the RPG elements are fairly shallow and poorly conceived.

 

[pantheon]

It's more of an FPS/RPG hybrid and the RPG elements are fairly shallow and poorly conceived.

I agree - Ob plays more like a FPS than anything else. No wonder that market likes it.

Soooo deep, any character, swords, magic, go anywhere, do whatever you want - must be an RPG...

However,
No character progression due to level scaling means no sense of advancement.
Quests play like missions - always play out the same way means no replay value and no character roleplaying allowed. Can only replay combat options ie melee, ranged, magic.
Completely brain-dead game. The only thinking you can do is combat related, everything else is handed to you through pop-ups, compus, pointers.
No emphasis on story, story is designed to take you to the next combat situation.
Emphasis on game balance (ie combat) at the expense of character diversity means the only 'fun' is combat related (ie beating the AI - which ain't great anyway...).
No fleshed out world to roleplay any other type of character than melee, ranged or magic.

The only sense of achievement in the whole game is combat related.

 

[WittyName]

What's funny is -- and I mean this sincerely -- Doom 3 actually drew me into it's story and atmosphere more with the audio logs and the video promos sprinkled throughout the game. Now, obviously Doom is linear, has zero character progression, and pretty much only one way to solve problems. However, when I played Oblivion and my level barely mattered and common bandits dropped full sets of glass armor at absurdly low levels then the shallowness of the main plot and all of the side quests only magnify those problems. The "world" of Doom 3 is pretty much a dead and isolated world, but it achieved it's feel and effect a lot better than Oblivion.

It's along those same lines that I think Bioshock (which probably won't market itself as an rpg, rather an fps with a few unique twists) looks more promising than Oblivion.

There was nothing revolutionary about Oblivion aside from it's graphics -- Ultima VII (and countless other games I'm sure) accomplished the same free-roam experience over a decade before it.

 

[Jasede]

WittyName:
1. Go to Home of the Underdogs
2. Download System Shock 2
3. Be happy for all eternity

 

[WittyName]

WittyName:
1. Go to Home of the Underdogs
2. Download System Shock 2
3. Be happy for all eternity

Yeah I've heard a lot of people here mention it, I'll probably give it a whirl now.

 

[Ahzaruuk]

What's funny is -- and I mean this sincerely -- Doom 3 actually drew me into it's story and atmosphere more with the audio logs and the video promos sprinkled throughout the game. Now, obviously Doom is linear, has zero character progression, and pretty much only one way to solve problems. However, when I played Oblivion and my level barely mattered and common bandits dropped full sets of glass armor at absurdly low levels then the shallowness of the main plot and all of the side quests only magnify those problems. The "world" of Doom 3 is pretty much a dead and isolated world, but it achieved it's feel and effect a lot better than Oblivion.

It's along those same lines that I think Bioshock (which probably won't market itself as an rpg, rather an fps with a few unique twists) looks more promising than Oblivion.

Wow.

I felt the same way About Drakan: The Ancients Gates

 

[Jim Kata]

What's funny is -- and I mean this sincerely -- Doom 3 actually drew me into it's story and atmosphere more with the audio logs and the video promos sprinkled throughout the game. Now, obviously Doom is linear, has zero character progression, and pretty much only one way to solve problems. However, when I played Oblivion and my level barely mattered and common bandits dropped full sets of glass armor at absurdly low levels then the shallowness of the main plot and all of the side quests only magnify those problems. The "world" of Doom 3 is pretty much a dead and isolated world, but it achieved it's feel and effect a lot better than Oblivion.

It's along those same lines that I think Bioshock (which probably won't market itself as an rpg, rather an fps with a few unique twists) looks more promising than Oblivion.

That's because it had challenge and REAL immersion, which has nothing to do with polygon count and everything to do with a world that is coherent in and of itself and reacts to you in a reasonable manner (limited as the interaction may be). Where game designers got the idea challenge = bad is beyond me, because every single real hit console game I have heard of has kids reloading over and over and over to get past difficult parts.

I agree with your genre assessment. As someone here put it is is a FPRFS - First Person Ren Faire Shooter.

 

[The_Nameless_Prick]

Post your reasons why you think Oblivion isn't a RPG

Because http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=583399 <----- THOSE are the people who "play" the game

 

[IV Flavia]

ESF fans want to play the Joker (literally). They think roleplaying is to do whatever they want and think through their fan-fiction stories while a CGI forest and medieval-dressed people somehow helps (I guess to lazy to use notepad). It is absolute self-fulfillment which is in no way roleplaying.

That is possibly the best summary of the mentality of most ESF posters I've seen yet. This is why Oblivion is the way it is, the devs listened to this crowd. This same bunch of people who think a roleplaying game is about throwing a character into a sandbox world with arbitrary number stats and doing whatever the hell they want. Of course, much of the actual roleplaying has to come from your imagination or a couple(hundred) mods, but that's why the roleplaying is up to you, right?

This reminds me fondly of those threads in MW (and now Oblivion too!) that have posters showing off their characters. Almost each character has this sweeping, epic background story that to their credit is probably deeper than Oblivion's MQ. Nevertheless, you notice a couple things about them:

1) There is little integration of these characters into the game world. Either that, or they are so out of place with the lore and environment in general. For a game about roleplaying in the world of Vvardenfell , it's a wonder where the fuck this jRPG/anime avatar came from.

2) If they are so kind as to provide screenshots, most of them are complete with ridiculous and impractical weapons and gear, far out of touch with what defines TES lore in general. This jRPG/Lineage-or-any-other-MMORPG rip off equipment, far beyond anything the Daedra could manufacture, was not laboriously earned after many hours of play, but probably acquired by popping open a crate placed by the mod author in Balmora or wherever, or maybe even just added via console.

And these people have the nerve to say they know what a RPG is about? They are playing a heavily modded character that barely interacts with the game world beyond smiting bad guys with their godlike powers. There is absolutely no roleplaying going on in the game, but only in their heads. An RPG this does not make.

As for my opinion on Oblivion, I was under no delusions that I would be getting GTA: Tamriel when I bought it. I enjoy just screwing around in the game, and I am content with that. I will get Age of Decadence when I'm ready to play an actual RPG.

 

[ixg]

snip

Which is why I dislike most mods: they have absolutely no place within the MW world - I DON'T WANT S&M CRAP IN MY GAME
I was trying to get the game the way I wanted with lots of mods but it was becoming so much work filtering out the garbage that I can't be bothered.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Poster B: Maybe it's not the RPG you were looking for cecil; but for an FPS junkie like me, who just didn't have the patience to read every word that Morrowind spat out, I found in deep(ish) and absorbing.

The wobbly tits avatar is just the cherry on top.

 

[Vidken]

1. The character skills are almost pointless. Closer to an FPS with mini-games.
2. The world isn't very reactive, nothing you do effects anything else. Character skills can't effect much. Although I will give credit to sneaking to disarm then talking someone to start a fight, but it doesn't have much purpose, nor primarily use character skills.

Character skills aren't entirely pointless. They serve to harass the player if they don't powerlevel combat-specific skills and keep track of their character's stats to get optimal multipliers. By not getting optimal multipliers, the world levels up beyond the player and the game becomes frustratingly difficult. This problem isn't immediately apparant to many and the game eventually becomes difficult to the point where players have to stand on rocks and shoot fireballs and arrows at one enemy for 15 minutes just to kill it. You may as well be playing a fucking MMO, where it takes 182 nuclear bombs to kill a "Red Dire Warthog of Level 50-55 Advancement".

You'd think in such a brainless "freeform" game that at the very least the character advancement system would be easy going, but it's not.

2) If they are so kind as to provide screenshots, most of them are complete with ridiculous and impractical weapons and gear, far out of touch with what defines TES lore in general. This jRPG/Lineage-or-any-other-MMORPG rip off equipment, far beyond anything the Daedra could manufacture, was not laboriously earned after many hours of play, but probably acquired by popping open a crate placed by the mod author in Balmora or wherever, or maybe even just added via console.

Almost every single one of those characters are "uber", too. They want world-saving supermodel superheroes and their modded gear is inspired by daydreams of how other forum members will react when they post their screenshots. That's what matters more than anything else.

You can't really say the game gives them much of a choice, unless they're committably insane (instead of simply being stupid). Playing a realistic, "integrated with society" character is deathly boring. Want to play a normal argonian citizen who makes his living by pearl diving? All you do is collect pearls, sell them, maybe buy some food (which does nothing), and maybe buy/upgrade horses and houses. Wow. Killing things is a rich intellectual experience by comparison. Hell, the pearl-diving argonian example is even more "fun and interactive" than some example characters the nutjobs spew out in Oblivion General.

As for my opinion on Oblivion, I was under no delusions that I would be getting GTA: Tamriel when I bought it. I enjoy just screwing around in the game, and I am content with that. I will get Age of Decadence when I'm ready to play an actual RPG.

Well hey, at least in GTA you can attack from your ride. Since Oblivion's quests are just as linear as GTA's missions, and most Oblivion players play power-hungry blingsters anyway, that makes GTA a hell of a lot better at what it does than Oblivion tries to do with itself.

 

[suibhne]

Who cares whether or not it's an RPG? It's a bad game.

For the sake of argument, let's say it is in fact an RPG. Let's look at just a few of the things that make it a bad RPG:

1. Almost total lack of multiple solutions to quests, which translates to lack of flexibility for character choices (and especially non-combat character choices).

2. Reflex-based combat, which subordinates character skill to player reflexes.

3. Persuasion/speech minigame which requires that your character simultaneously Flatter and Threaten every NPC whom you attempt to "persuade" - forcing all characters who use Speechcraft to be sycophants, silver-tongued diplomats, and asstastic bullies, all the time.

4. Lockpicking minigame which renders character skill almost totally irrelevant beside player skill.

5. Faction design which allows you to be the head of every guild (even if you lack the skills associated with that guild), removing consequences from character development choices.

6. Gameworld which scales to the character level, removing risk and consequences from exploration (or, conversely, harshly punishing character builds which are less combat-focused).

And that's just for starters. :wink:

 

[bylam]

Oblivion is not a role-playing game because:

I recieved a quest to follow a merchant and see where he got his merchandise. So I shaded him, sticking to shadows, making sure the "stealth meter" never went gold. Eventually he met with somebody and then *the game* told me to follow this new person. Which I did, staying in shadows. Eventually I broke into a house and discovered the merchants goods were coming from a grave robber. I went to confront the grave robber.
The grave robber had prepared an ambush for me! HOW! I was hidden the ENTIRE time I followed him. He and his merchant friend NEVER saw me! Yet he had layed an ambush.

So I reloaded and tried the quest again. Same result.

So I reloaded and tried the quest again, this time walking in plain sight of the characters I was following. Same result.

So I reloaded and hopped up and down in front of the NPC's, even when they were discussing their plans. Same result.

Oblivion is not an RPG because you play no role apart from that decided by the writers (who were terrible).

 

[Vidken]

I thought I'd add on to each of your points. Not because they needed it, but because complaining about Oblivion feels good. Shamefully admitted.

1. Almost total lack of multiple solutions to quests, which translates to lack of flexibility for character choices (and especially non-combat character choices).

Quest items, creatures, npcs and situations are not present until the quest is activated.

2. Reflex-based combat, which subordinates character skill to player reflexes.

With enough arrows and your newbie flare spell, you can defeat absolutely anything with enough time.

3. Persuasion/speech minigame which requires that your character simultaneously Flatter and Threaten every NPC whom you attempt to "persuade" - forcing all characters who use Speechcraft to be sycophants, silver-tongued diplomats, and asstastic bullies, all the time.

Nobody reacts negatively to being bribed.

4. Lockpicking minigame which renders character skill almost totally irrelevant beside player skill.

Which is apparantly balanced over in that there's nothing worth getting inside locked areas and containers since everything is leveled.

5. Faction design which allows you to be the head of every guild (even if you lack the skills associated with that guild), removing consequences from character development choices.

In one sad example, for a thieves guild quest you have to steal an item from the arch mage's chamber. You get this quest even if you're the arch mage. Worse yet, the item in the chamber doesn't appear until the very nanosecond the quest is activated.

6. Gameworld which scales to the character level, removing risk and consequences from exploration (or, conversely, harshly punishing character builds which are less combat-focused).

Harshly punishing character builds which are less combat-focused, in a world that offers next to no viable non-combat alternatives. You can make potions to sell, or you can metagame by reading up on which of the very few quests don't involve violence. Or you can roleplay a rock.

 

[franc kaos]

Instead of expanding an element with such potential for interest and depth - they threw it out.

Which can be said of so many of the features of daggerfall, and just about everything they were planning to do but didnt get around to implementing. (check out the daggerfall museum: http://www.svatopluk.com/daggerfall/museum/faq.stm)

Reading the above link made me weep for what Oblivion should have been.

As for my opinion on Oblivion, I was under no delusions that I would be getting GTA: Tamriel when I bought it. I enjoy just screwing around in the game, and I am content with that. I will get Age of Decadence when I'm ready to play an actual RPG.

Yea, I'm looking forward to RolePlaying in the upcoming Crytek game :wink:

@ OP: It's RPG very Lite but I'm still enjoying it with about 100 mods (tho' I am getting Gothic3 next weekend which may kill it off). You don't have to agree with all the Codex says to read here (but it gosh darn helps).

 

[IV Flavia]

Playing a realistic, "integrated with society" character is deathly boring. Want to play a normal argonian citizen who makes his living by pearl diving? All you do is collect pearls, sell them, maybe buy some food (which does nothing), and maybe buy/upgrade horses and houses.

I didn't mean that exactly. I meant that your character should fit within the lore of the game. Being the hero or of an elite status among the populace is okay; after all, you've earned it after playing for so long. Trying to play as some sort of extra-dimensional poof that barely jives with what the game is about means you are not playing an RPG.

 

[WittyName]

I agree completely with IV Flavia and the quote he posted from Human Shield. And GTA: Tamriel is the perfect way to sum up Oblivion except all of the GTA games actually had more in-depth stories and character development.

Trying to play as some sort of extra-dimensional poof that barely jives with what the game is about means you are not playing an RPG.

http://takethesigilstoneforgodssake.ytmnd.com/

 

[SkeleTony]

HI

I think the reason behind why Oblivion isn't considered an RPG is this:

You can do whatever you want, it is free form.
This means you need to PLAY it. Not GAME it.

And by PLAY it, I mean the word play usually is connected to loosely unplanned activities in which you have a great say in how to these should get planned and implemented (carried out). Children playing outside on a hot summer's day is an an example of this.

By GAME, I mean the word 'game' usually is used about activities in which there are strict rules which must be adhered at all times etc. etc. Think of a boardgame i.e. Monopoly which has rules etc. etc.

And since the first Crpgs was very likely connected to or tied to the D&D rules, people have grown to expect that all Crpgs should use the D&D rules.
(and this is like the boardgame, I mentioned)

Then, Oblivion etc. comes along and makes it so that there no rules (or a few rules) to follow, as well as the player can make the rules up as he go along (sort of). Then people start to say 'but it is not an rpg'.

My answer would be: 'yes, it is an rpg, not just the rpg, you were expecting'.

I have two major grievances with Oblivion

1) the mini-games in which it is the player's skills with his fingers that decided the outcome of the mini-game, not the stats and skills the player's protagonist has.

2)
The annoying pop-up messages which guides you through the game as if you were a 5 or 6 year old.

However, these grievances do not make me think that Oblivion is not an rpg.

aries202

Bullshit.

I am one of those "old school RPGamers" who was around when D&D made it's splash and I can tell you with utmost certainty that D&D is NOT the standard by which RPGs are measured. It was(and still is to a lesser degree though 3rd ed. fixes most of the broken systems of AD&D/OD&D) a horrible system. And people do not generally dislike Oblivion(or any other 'dumbed down' crpg) because it does not use D&D rules. We dislike dumbed down RPGs because they are DUMBED DOWN!

To echo what others have said, Oblivion IS a RPG...just not a GOOD rpg. It is a RPG in the sense that Final Fantasy(1-10) or some other console styled RPG are RPGs.

RPGs NEED game mechanics, like it or not, in order to BE RPGs. You can do the "free form" r0L3pL4Y1Ng in ANY activity or game from Doom to solitaire(cards). Role playing GAMES are another type of beast altogether.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Bullshit.

I am one of those "old school RPGamers" who was around when D&D made it's splash and I can tell you with utmost certainty that D&D is NOT the standard by which RPGs are measured. It was(and still is to a lesser degree though 3rd ed. fixes most of the broken systems of AD&D/OD&D) a horrible system. And people do not generally dislike Oblivion(or any other 'dumbed down' crpg) because it does not use D&D rules. We dislike dumbed down RPGs because they are DUMBED DOWN!

Thank you. I'm surprised no one saw this (or commented on it) before.

I think the reason behind why Oblivion isn't considered an RPG is this:

You can do whatever you want, it is free form.

Your really haven't played (oh, sorry, GAMED) all that many RPGs have you? There are several free form games that are considered excellent RPGs (Darklands, the Realms of Arkania series, Ultima 7 to a lesser extent). Granted, I've never played Oblivion, but if it's anything like Morrowind (and from what I've heard, it is and more - unfortunately) then the main thing about it is that you CAN'T "go anywhere, do anything". Wait, no, you can GO anywhere you just can't actually DO anything - since there's basically nothing in the entire game to do besides fed-ex quests and "heya, pleaz kill this dude". And I'm not comparing to the likes of BG 1 - which I'm betting you do.

Besides, your definition of PLAYing has more in common with what a good RPG is than what your definition of GAMEing has. This part in particular:

activities in which you have a great say in how to these should get planned and implemented (carried out)

That's called making a choice. Hopefully followed by a consequence - that differs depending on what choice you make.