Sierra Why We Loved Sierra Games: 1984 Sierra fan reviews King's Quest 2015

[Infinitron]

This looks well done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLPAVYgFfeddJzax1X4VUj69Z1Vs4PqGlA&v=wua96SI6SBE

 

[Unkillable Cat]

>Makes one-sided statements that overstate Sierra's importance ("Invented the graphic adventure game")
>Spends 5 minutes ranting about he's tired of not being the centerpoint of the gaming industry anymore
>Wants a "resurrection" of adventure games
>Seems oblivious about Telltale Games, Daedelic Entertainment and all the 'indie' Adventure Games that have been released in the 21st century, yet supports kickstarters
>Only wants to talk about the good points of Sierra adventure games
>States repeatedely that he's a Sierra game fan
>Sees a need to "state his street cred" with a 2-minute segment about all the various Sierra-related things he's done

I'm sorry, I quit after 8 minutes of the first video. This is not "well done", this is nothing but a rambling manifesto from a semi-delusional fanboy of yesteryear, and he hasn't even STARTED talking about the new King's Quest.

While I'll admit that I might actually do a similar tirade (and have done in the past) I've kept them short and to the point. With me you'd need 5 minutes at the most, while he's wasting 75 minutes of our time on this.

(One question though, from what game is the screenshot at 6:17 in the first video?)

 

[Infinitron]

>Seems oblivious about Telltale Games, Daedelic Entertainment and all the 'indie' Adventure Games that have been released in the 21st century, yet supports kickstarters

He also plays the AGDI/Infamous remakes, as evidenced by all the footage of them (note: I've only watched the first part as of this writing). Also, Telltale?

(One question though, from what game is the screenshot at 6:17 in the first video?)

...I have no idea. Some Easter Egg area we didn't know about? Maybe from Blackthorne's SQ2 remake?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Also, Telltale?

When they started out about 10 years ago, Telltale made games that fit the old-school adventure game formula, in a time when no one gave a fuck about them. They were episodic, yes, and felt cheap as hell when they reused assets, yeah, but they were still adventure games. They've since branched out into..."other" forms of gaming, but their origins are solid in that regard.

 

[Infinitron]

OK, but that was then.

>Only wants to talk about the good points of Sierra adventure games

he's wasting 75 minutes of our time on this

In the words of TVTropes, some anvils need to be dropped. Hipsters have been snarking at the bad old Sierra games for years. It's great that somebody has made a 70 minute video throwing that back at them.

I disagree that it is rambling. It is long and well-cited, but not rambling. But sure, it is a 70+ minute feature entitled "Why We Loved Sierra Games". If that doesn't sound interesting you and you think you already know everything it's going to say, then don't watch it.

That said, in the second part of the video, he actually does criticize the VGA/mouse-driven games Sierra games, contrasting them unfavorably with the parser-based one.

 

[Infinitron]

Watched the entire thing.

He does lose the plot a bit in the third part, where he talks about technical aspects and spends too much time graphics whoring. Also, there's a strange overture to hidden object games on mobile platforms. The game design discussion of the first two parts is much more interesting.

Also, I guess I agree that he should have found a way to mention Daedalic and Wadjet Eye, although throughout the video he's reluctant to even bring up LucasArts, so perhaps this is a result of focus rather than ignorance.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The title sounds interesting and he may bring up some good points, but the way he opens up the video will put many people off (myself included). Referencing himself and his credentials should be put at the back, not the front.

At least he correctly identifies that the reason many people have been wailing on the Sierra adventure games is because they're being compared to modern-day equivalents, which is kinda silly. Comparing them to the LucasArts catalogue is a wiser choice, but it's been done to death already.

 

[Archibald]

Don't really understand why its surprising that fan of Sierra games overstates its importance and looks only at the "bright" side, ignoring various problems. I mean title is "Why we love Sierra games", did you expect some edgy stuff about how Sierra was shit? I don't know, I got what I expected and wasn't disappointed.

Resurrection of adventure games and lack of WEG/TellTale/other mentions - after watching whole thing its fairly obvious that for him big part of Sierra games was their technical capabilities. Stuff that 2 guys make in their basement isn't what he wants from this genre. And I also don't see why its a problem that he wants adventure games to be at the centre of attention again, I mean hello? We have been bitching and crying about crpgs for decade here.

Also, there's a strange overture to hidden object games on mobile platforms

Its often mentioned as a related "genre", similarly to crpg -> action crpg. Beats QTEs nonsenses.

 

[Infinitron]

Archibald I looked at the guys' website and noticed he has a background in iOS development, so he has some sympathies in that area.

 

[Archibald]

I don't think that Hidden object games are specific to mobile, bigfishgames releases lots of them and it seams that most of them are available for PC and, if I'm not mistaken, they started on PC.

 

[MRY]

I guess I agree that he should have found a way to mention Daedalic and Wadjet Eye, although throughout the video he's reluctant to even bring up LucasArts, so perhaps this is a result of focus rather than ignorance.

I can't be bothered to watch 70 minutes of anything, but if the thrust of what he's saying is that what he loved was early parser-based Sierra games, then Daedelic and Wajet Eye games are practically as far from that standard as Tell Tale games.

The thing that I don't really understand, and maybe a hardcore Sierra-phile can explain it to me, is how you could think that the Sierra parser system is the sweet spot. Most of the Sierra parser games look like garbage (compared to point and clicks) and have lousy puzzles and limited interface (compared to Infocom and other text adventures). It's true that they are less amenable to spamming than point-and-clicks, but it's not like they use the parser for anything really engaging (at least not that I recall).

 

[Archibald]

If I understand correctly he simply prefers parser-based games to "click everything" systems, but notes some problems with it. In the end everything is shit and he hopes that some new forms of input will eventually emerge.

 

[Infinitron]

The thing that I don't really understand, and maybe a hardcore Sierra-phile can explain it to me, is how you could think that the Sierra parser system is the sweet spot.

Yeah, that's not really what he said. He points out a specific advantage of parser-based systems over point and click (and in particular, dialogue using parser vs point and click menu-based dialogue). He doesn't say that the Sierra parser-based games were superior overall.

Watch the second video only if you want to see for yourself.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Some of the most important things that were great about Sierra games were inherited or adapted from text adventures- -- and all of those things got lost with Lucas Arts, not to mention later adventure games. No adventure game that I can recall off the top of my head has been able to re-capture that since, either. In that sense, earlier King's Quest games were indeed better than the later ones.

I do have some things to say about this, but I haven't had the time to watch the videos or just formulate my thoughts properly yet. Maybe at some later point.

 

[MRY]

Some of the most important things that were great about Sierra games were inherited or adapted from text adventures- -- and all of those things got lost with Lucas Arts, not to mention later adventure games. No adventure game that I can recall off the top of my head has been able to re-capture that since, either. In that sense, earlier King's Quest games were indeed better than the later ones.

I totally agree. But to me, the early parser Sierra games were impressive as a kid because "Wow, animated graphics! An avatar!" which seemed like such an advance over either no graphics or static graphics (particularly as a young kid) that I was indifferent to the fact that the parser was a huge step backward, and the parser-based puzzles were an even bigger step backward from the state of the art in 1982 or whatever.

From the perspective of 2015, the gap seems even bigger because while Infocom games have lost very little, the early Sierra games have very little to offer other than historical curiosity. The graphics do nothing.

Also, through the absurd effort of the Inform community, the parsers for IF are now much stronger than they were in 1982 and, I would cautiously offer, at least some of the parser-based puzzle design is better. (Counterfeit Monkey or Hadean Lands pops to mind.) It seems hard for me to imagine trying to implement a parser today in an adventure game because you'd have to lose so much of what's good about the parser for it to work: you just can't deliver the graphics necessary to account for the wide range of actions that make the parser system enjoyable. To me, at least, the early Sierra games evaded this limitation because (1) the graphics were so simplistic that there wasn't an expectation that actions would be depicted and (2) the parser was so simplistic that complex actions were disregarded. I don't see any plausible way you could marry modern graphics and a modern parser.

Incidentally, Bee, have you played Kyrandia 2? I always thought it had a strong old school flavor.

 

[Infinitron]

MRY It's worth noting that he uses as examples some of the last Sierra games to use a parser, like Conquests of Camelot. The Sierra parser at its most advanced, closest to the Infocom state of the art.

 

[Scruffy]

>Makes one-sided statements that overstate Sierra's importance ("Invented the graphic adventure game")
>Spends 5 minutes ranting about he's tired of not being the centerpoint of the gaming industry anymore
>Wants a "resurrection" of adventure games
>Seems oblivious about Telltale Games, Daedelic Entertainment and all the 'indie' Adventure Games that have been released in the 21st century, yet supports kickstarters
>Only wants to talk about the good points of Sierra adventure games
>States repeatedely that he's a Sierra game fan
>Sees a need to "state his street cred" with a 2-minute segment about all the various Sierra-related things he's done

I'm sorry, I quit after 8 minutes of the first video. This is not "well done", this is nothing but a rambling manifesto from a semi-delusional fanboy of yesteryear, and he hasn't even STARTED talking about the new King's Quest.

While I'll admit that I might actually do a similar tirade (and have done in the past) I've kept them short and to the point. With me you'd need 5 minutes at the most, while he's wasting 75 minutes of our time on this.

(One question though, from what game is the screenshot at 6:17 in the first video?)

I'm too old for this and I have an ever sillier complaint:

that fucking heroin addict voice made me quit 4 minutes in
I loved anything Sierra, but there's no way in hell I'll sit through over an hour of a guy dozing off while talking

 

[Crooked Bee]

Incidentally, Bee, have you played Kyrandia 2? I always thought it had a strong old school flavor.

I did -- a long time ago. I'd really need to replay a lot of things to write up a substantial response to those and other points; and I really do hope to (be able to) do that at a later point. One thing I know, though, is that there were at least a couple key aspects to Sierra's adventure games that'd make them at the very least interesting enough to engage with or look back at -- as well as potentially productive, had these aspects been drawn on to a more significant degree in adventure games that were to follow. An endeavor for another time, maybe.

 

[Great Deceiver]

The irony is that this guy actually likes NuKQ, albeit with reservations.

For me, the difference between parser interfaces and point and click (even a robust verb-driven p'n'c interface laden with many specific verbs) is rather simple - creativity. Even a very limited parser like Sierra's allowed me to express myself in how I approached a particular situation, so much so that this choice was actually part of the gameplay itself and never felt contrived or pointless.

It would be curious to see what an evolution in parser technology would have brought, as opposed to point and click - which, it also bears mentioning, instead of evolving, rather got streamlined and lost a lot of its possibilities as well.

 

[Blackthorne]

I watched this, and really liked it. Yeah, I agree it was overlong, but he had some great and salient points in there. If this thing had a real editor, it could have been boiled down to 10 minutes. Still, for me - as a developer who likes to look at and analyze why not only I love these games but why others do too, this was a good 70 minutes of my time. I didn't agree with everything, but I thought it was well presented, and obviously done by an ardent fan.

Again, though, it always amuses me - the perception of a Sierra vs. Lucasarts kind of thing. I love games from both companies, and no one says I have to pick one. And if they do, fuck them and the wildebeest's vagina they sprung out of.


Bt

 

[Great Deceiver]

Yeah this was actually the main thing that resonated with me watching those videos - back in the day, there was no such thing as a Sierra vs Lucas mentality, people that I knew who liked adventure games played them all without reservations.

 

[Blackthorne]

You know, The 2015 KQ - I don't hate it, but I don't really love it either. It's a well made game, but it feels like something else saddled with the King's Quest moniker. I mean, honestly, they would have done better by making it as it's own IP, and then based the marketing on that. Instead, they chose to use the King's Quest name, which really only resonates with a certain part of the population, and that certain part of the gaming population isn't looking for THIS particular game.


Bt

 

[Great Deceiver]

I summed up my feelings about the game in the other thread, but I think it's actually offensively bad. It's patronizing, lacking in player agency, too full of Princess Bride references (and I love PB, mind) and just overall fucking dumb. It reeks of hipster sensibilities and all it manages to be, in the end, is a waste of money and a black mark on a venerable license.