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Wing Commander

LarryTyphoid

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I wanted to play a classic space sim to get my feet wet in the genre, and I figure you can't get much more classic than Wing Commander. I'm playing with a keyboard and mouse because I haven't got a flight stick. What do I have to look forward to?
 
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terrible graphics, tropes galore and a repetitiveness.
it's a 30 years old game after all, but 30 years ago it was shockingly groundbreaking.
 

LarryTyphoid

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terrible graphics, tropes galore and a repetitiveness.
it's a 30 years old game after all, but 30 years ago it was shockingly groundbreaking.
I thought Wing Commander was a highly respected game in the space sim genre. Is it generally seen as dated now? I figured it'd be a lot more accessible than something like Elite.
 
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pong is also respected and revered. space invaders. tetris. we couldn't have the world we live in without them. but there've been further inventions.
wing commander, inspired by cinemaware's games, have been one of the first "modern" games made of cutscenes. you'll spend most of the time reading dialogues out of combat. the run to the battlestations was stunning and became iconic, but time goes on. characters are living tropes perfectly in character with their nicknames. spirit, iceman, angel, maniac, paladin.
it was all incredible back then, it's all pretty much obsolete now. gameplay too, but that's mostly because of how too impossibly good freespace 2 is.
 

Data4

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Play X-wing or Tie Fighter instead. More varied missions. Then move on to the later Wing Commanders as suggested above.
 

LarryTyphoid

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Play X-wing or Tie Fighter instead. More varied missions. Then move on to the later Wing Commanders as suggested above.
I'll give the first two Wing Commanders a try first, considering I got them for free and all, but I'll definitely try those afterwards if I dislike them. I didn't know the Star Wars space sims were so liked, since they're licensed games, but I guess they must be pretty good. The first Wing Commander has truly awful mouse controls so I ordered a cheap flight joystick, and hopefully that'll make all these games more fun.
 

Morpheus Kitami

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I liked Wing Commander, but it has been a long time since I last played it. Might have just been easy enough for someone like me to grasp without having really played the genre. Now that its been ages since I last played the game and having quite a few other space sims under my belt...I do actually feel like its one of the better space sims around, even though I'm only viewing it through the lens of nostalgia.
If you're considering recommendations, I suggest Star Trek: Starfleet Academy, if you like ST, since it pretty much emulates the spaceship side of the show, with all the space shooting being a nice little extra. If you decide to be enough of a fool to play Elite, I suggest going for Elite Plus or one of the nicer ports, like Amiga or NES. The original versions are very rough, since they're the basically the first proper space sim, everything before it either faked everything or ran like shit.
 

Lemming42

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What do I have to look forward to?
Fun combat and impressive "immersive" stuff peppered with dumb shit that wastes your time, like endless trips through asteroid fields. Be careful not to let your teammate get any kills at all, because if they do, the game thinks you're terrible and puts you on the losing route. You're the most important person in the universe, your influence over the war is outsized to the point of total absurdity, and the entire course of the war is determined purely by how many kills you get. You can pass all missions perfectly and still end up in deep shit if you didn't personally get most of the kills.

The first game is pretty fun. The second is more of the same but with a comically poor story that will make you laugh. After 2, they start with the live action FMVs, which quickly got to be too much for me. I know everyone finds great ironic fun in how cringingly bad it all is, especailly when real professional actors like Malcom MacDowell are forced to read out embarrassing and nonsensical lines. But the story is just so deeply shit that it's borderline offensive, it's like watching the worst Star Wars fan film you've ever seen, except one that actually stars Mark Hamill (and is thus worse than the worst Star Wars fan film). Hamill's performance is so bad that it's unreal, and your character goes from being an annoying jock in the second game to... well, Mark Hamill, in the third. I don't know if he thought he was coming across as cool and edgy, but he actually comes across like he doesn't want to be there and is angry at being asked to take part in the entire project, hissing and spitting every line out. On the rare occasion that the game actually let me play rather than forced me to watch a bad movie, I sometimes turned my ship right around and rammed into the flagship, just to send myself/Hamill up in a big fiery ball of flame.

The terrible story in WC2 is tolerable because it's ultimately so dire that it's impossible not to marvel at it as a piece of inadvertent comedy genius (the Japanese character dying in a literal kamikaze attack, which is played completely straight as tragic drama, is absolutely gutbusting, and the dazzlingly abrupt "romance" arc suggests that the writer has never interacted with any other humans in real life). But WC3 and 4 pretty much force you to watch reams and reams of this piss-poor stuff before finally letting you play the actual game, and the joke's on you, because it turns out that the game is not even as lukewarmly fun as the first two, for the brief moments where you're actually allowed to play it. You're basically forced to watch a full, terrible movie, which Chris Roberts probably made into a game because he secretly knew it was too shit to even pass as a straight-to-TV B-movie that not even people stoned out of their minds and half-conscious while flicking through channels at 2 AM would willingly watch, and your only reward is to play a really middling space combat sim that's already been surpassed by other games at that point.

The first is a really great piece of videogame history though, it does some incredibly cool stuff for something from 1990, things that you don't see in games today.
 

LarryTyphoid

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know everyone finds great ironic fun in how cringingly bad it all is, especailly when real professional actors like Malcom MacDowell are forced to read out embarrassing and nonsensical lines.
What, the FMVs are bad? I heard they were actually pretty good.

All games should shame you like this when you fail.


This scene here is pretty solid. Not that I have much frame of reference for live-action FMVs - only other games I've played with live-action cutscenes are Star Wars Dark Forces 2 and Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri, the former of which were pretty good, and the latter of which were terrible. And Thief, I guess, but I don't think that counts.
 

Nathaniel3W

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As everyone has said, they're good games, but games have come a long way since then. I haven't seen a lot of specific complaints about the gameplay though, so here are my specifics: the combat is mostly space jousting, unless your enemy is focusing on a different target. The escort missions are very frustrating. The ship you're escorting is a useless, helpless baby, that often doesn't detect that it has reached the jump point or completed other mission objectives.

I think in WC3 you get your first ship with turrets. You have to stay moving toward an enemy capital ship to lock your torpedoes, so you have to switch to the turrets to defend yourself while staying pointed at the target. I remember firing torpedo after torpedo at the enemy ships and never doing any damage. I couldn't figure out why until one day I blew up during a bombing approach and after reviewing the kill-cam, I realized I was running into my own torpedo. So lock onto the enemy ship, fire your torpedo, then wait until you see the torpedo well in front of you, then turn.

Those are my gripes about the gameplay. I actually didn't mind the cutscenes and dialog. I thought it was nice to give some context to the events and to give my wingmen some kind of personality.

After you play the first couple Wing Commander games, go play Ultima VII and you'll be "in" on the jokes.
 

Saduj

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Fun combat and impressive "immersive" stuff peppered with dumb shit that wastes your time, like endless trips through asteroid fields. Be careful not to let your teammate get any kills at all, because if they do, the game thinks you're terrible and puts you on the losing route. You're the most important person in the universe, your influence over the war is outsized to the point of total absurdity, and the entire course of the war is determined purely by how many kills you get. You can pass all missions perfectly and still end up in deep shit if you didn't personally get most of the kills.
I played the PC version and expansions many times through (keyboard only, EGA graphics setting). I remember having a chart that shows what sectors you visit based on success/failure. Played every mission by intentionally failing at certain points in some playthroughs. I don't remember ever failing and being put on the losing path because the wingman got some kills. It was always based on mission objectives.
 

Morpheus Kitami

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What, the FMVs are bad? I heard they were actually pretty good.
Well, you have to understand that good FMVs doesn't really mean all that much to most people. For a lot of people, good FMVs mean they can stand watching it without cringing. Most people, Lemming is a bit of an snob so I don't think he likes any FMVs. Although that said, I can't see him being 100% wrong in this case, since Malcolm there is the kind of person who takes any acting gigs he can take so he doesn't have another evening of eating cold canned beans. He'll say anything if you wave enough money in front of him, and that glove line is definitely something he said to not eat cold beans that week.
 

Lemming42

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The Satellite Of Love
Fun combat and impressive "immersive" stuff peppered with dumb shit that wastes your time, like endless trips through asteroid fields. Be careful not to let your teammate get any kills at all, because if they do, the game thinks you're terrible and puts you on the losing route. You're the most important person in the universe, your influence over the war is outsized to the point of total absurdity, and the entire course of the war is determined purely by how many kills you get. You can pass all missions perfectly and still end up in deep shit if you didn't personally get most of the kills.
I played the PC version and expansions many times through (keyboard only, EGA graphics setting). I remember having a chart that shows what sectors you visit based on success/failure. Played every mission by intentionally failing at certain points in some playthroughs. I don't remember ever failing and being put on the losing path because the wingman got some kills. It was always based on mission objectives.
Are you sure? It's been a long time since I played it so I'll defer to you, but I seem to remember getting punished for hanging back and letting Spirit do everything. I mean, several of the missions don't have any objectives other than destroy the enemies and survive, so the only way I can think of to fail the objectives other than dying would be to hit the ejector seat the instant you leave spacedock.

Most people, Lemming is a bit of an snob so I don't think he likes any FMVs
That's not true, I like the Command & Conquer ones, probably because they're aware of how vaguely embarrassing the whole thing is and lean into it. I didn't mind the Jedi Knight ones either because the dude playing Kyle makes me laugh.

I'm enjoying being considered a snob though; I think I used to be considered an ultra-pleb on here because I said shit like "come on guys Skyrim's not that bad" and "not all the Goldbox games hold up that well" and "New Vegas feels like a real Fallout game to me", so it's nice to experience a change in fortunes like this!
 

Morpheus Kitami

Liturgist
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May 14, 2020
Messages
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That's not true, I like the Command & Conquer ones, probably because they're aware of how vaguely embarrassing the whole thing is and lean into it. I didn't mind the Jedi Knight ones either because the dude playing Kyle makes me laugh.

I'm enjoying being considered a snob though; I think I used to be considered an ultra-pleb on here because I said shit like "come on guys Skyrim's not that bad" and "not all the Goldbox games hold up that well" and "New Vegas feels like a real Fallout game to me", so it's nice to experience a change in fortunes like this!
Fair enough, I've seen enough comments of yours that were on the snobbish side that I thought it was a safe assumption. The guy who wrote quite a lot about how much he hated Blake's 7 and how it murdered his family seems like the kind of person who would hate FMVs by default. Even something like Jedi Knight's seem like a bit of a bridge too far.
 
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I wanted to play a classic space sim to get my feet wet in the genre, and I figure you can't get much more classic than Wing Commander. I'm playing with a keyboard and mouse because I haven't got a flight stick. What do I have to look forward to?

My last playthrough of Wing Commander I and II (with all data discs) was about six year ago - I always played them with KB+Mouse, no joystick needed IMO. Anyway, if you like space flight sims (starfighters sims) you will enjoy it even now. Unlike X-Wing/TIE Fighter series, WC is heavy on storyfaggotry, you can talk to characters in between missions (WC2 has a scripted romance, WC3 lets you choose which chick to bang and there are consequences lol), there are named enemy aces etc. Mission desing is somewhat simplistic, but still serviceable, plot is fine (though Kilrathii aka space cats, are perhaps not everyone´s cup of tea).

Just give it a try and you will see.
 

LarryTyphoid

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Sep 16, 2021
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Been playing WC1 with a mouse while waiting for the Logitech Attack 3 to come in. It's pretty fun once you adapt to the crap factor of the weird scaling sprites. The mouse controls are pretty bad. Instead of being able to steer your ship directly with the mouse like in X-Wing or TIE-Fighter, instead you control a small cursor, and the ship steers in the direction of that cursor. At first it's easy to confuse the mouse cursor with the crosshair that points towards your current objective. To control your speed and tilt the ship, you hold the right mouse button. But there's a small delay after you press the mouse button during which your cursor still controls the direction of the ship, so it just feels like shit. As a result I never rotate the ship, and I control the speed with the keyboard instead.
 

Tweed

Professional Kobold
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Pathfinder: Wrath
If you like WC1 and thought Kurasawa 2 was too easy you'll love the expansions. Every mission in covert and crusade is balls to the walls.
 

Saduj

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Aug 26, 2012
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Are you sure? It's been a long time since I played it so I'll defer to you, but I seem to remember getting punished for hanging back and letting Spirit do everything. I mean, several of the missions don't have any objectives other than destroy the enemies and survive, so the only way I can think of to fail the objectives other than dying would be to hit the ejector seat the instant you leave spacedock.
I'm sure about the PC version. I vaguely remember that sometimes the game could be a bit weird about whether you hit a checkpoint or not. So maybe if you were trying to hang back, the game didn't acknowledge that you hit all the assigned checkpoints during your patrol.
 

LarryTyphoid

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Getting raped hard on the level where you've got Maniac as your wingman and you have to stop a convoy from prolonging a siege. After many attempts I was finally about to take out the final ship after a grueling battle, when some shit hit the side of my ship and I died instantly. There was only one enemy left, it was in my sights, and nothing indicated that a heat-seeking missile was tracking me, so I can only assume that Maniac killed me with friendly fire. I don't know if friendly fire is even in this game for the CPU but it's the only rational explanation. I could just accept the loss for the mission but I've spent too much time on it for that now. Hoping this shit gets easier when the flight stick comes in.
 

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