An RPG Without Combat

AzraelCC · Nov 26, 2009

Does it even exist? After reading the shit storm brought on by the PS:T thread, the Codex definition of an RPG is always tied to combat. In fact, most hold the belief that RPGs are merely a mixture of adventure games and tactical games with character progression. I am familiar with the history of RPGs, but shouldn't the genre have advanced somewhat from its tactical war game roots to actual role-playing?

I always thought that CRPGs were all about the player making decisions for a character he has created--and his decisions as well as their consequences would not be resolved by the player's skills but by the player character's set of skills. Hence playing a role.

But shouldn't this make way for roles that don't utilize combat? A Detective RPG has been proposed, and intellectual heroes have been present in literature and popular media for quite some time. A purely thieving oriented RPG could also be interesting.

Is combat the only activity simulated by roleplaying that provides enough gameplay elements and tension to warrant a focus?

And does the Codex know of any RPGs without combat, or that combat is a secondary gameplay focus.

Emotional Vampire · Nov 26, 2009

LARP LARP LARP LARP

Black Cat · Nov 26, 2009

Combat is the only traditional role playing game activity that can be simulated without going to much into abstraction, and so it is usually the focus of every scene thingie. Pen and paper role playing games have usually, like, rules and thingies to use the character's skills and stuff in solving puzzles, riddles, enigmas and, like, thingies, but it always come down to either the game turning ultra mega super boring, because the player is never doing any thinking or solving at all, or the character sheet becomes a way to get, like, extra hints and more tries before epic fail time. How do you simulate, like, the process of researching a collection of old dusty books in a way as interactive and immediate as you simulate a set piece battle? You can do, like, minigames. Some pen and paper role playing games have used minigame-like thingies both for combat and for other stuffy stuff. In the end it becomes just stupid, since having rulesets inside of rulesets inside of rulesets is, like, totally not friendly and cool. So the kawaii neko thinks it isn't posible at all, nya.

SuicideBunny · Nov 26, 2009

AzraelCC said:
A Detective RPG has been proposed

there is one. sorta.
an indie adventure game with a use based skill system where you play a french (i think) detective.
heck... if only i could remember the name...

Lesifoere · Nov 26, 2009

The problem, quite apart from people associating RPGs with loot (usually gotten from combat, and used to augment the characters for better combat), is the idea of character progression: again, much of progression is focused toward enabling the character to defeat bigger, badder things for shinier loot. Plus, tactical combat--or even a pretense of it--provides the player with some challenge, whereas grinding EXP until you have enough stats/skills to pass dialogue checks wouldn't very. What I'd like to see, though? Would be some kind of system that does rely on the player's cleverness and ability to interpret data, but again that's not very RPG-y.

Then there's the "hurr derp go play adventure games/read CYOA books" crowd which rather misses the point, since adventure games don't generally offer multiple quest solutions or branching stories, as well as put considerable focus on puzzle-solving (and, lately, action elements).

AzraelCC · Nov 26, 2009

I don't mean a game with the option to make-believe your character is intellectual or a rogue. Are there any RPGs whose mechanics are meant for roleplaying a character who does not focus on combat?

If there are none, does this mean that combat is the only activity that can be translated into game mechanics in an interesting manner so as to provide a tense scenario for decision making in a CRPG?

Demnogonis Saastuttaja · Nov 26, 2009

I don't see why a detective RPG wouldn't also have combat. Or an exploration-based RPG, or a city-building RPG, or anything, if it's about your choices, it always comes to the point where there's some reason to kill someone.

AzraelCC · Nov 26, 2009

Black Cat said:
Pen and paper role playing games have usually, like, rules and thingies to use the character's skills and stuff in solving puzzles, riddles, enigmas and, like, thingies, but it always come down to either the game turning ultra mega super boring, because the player is never doing any thinking or solving at all, or the character sheet becomes a way to get, like, extra hints and more tries before epic fail time.

I understand this. Even dialogue in both CRPGs and P&P RPGs tend to be metagame-y. There are no gameplay mechanics that limit you from giving schizophrenic responses.

Truth be told, I'd like to see something like the dialogue system in The Sims to be adopted in RPGs. A particular Player Character has a set of topics he or she knows about (represented by a visual icon above the player's head), and this set expands as the PC talks to NPCs. Whether the PC knows a topic would determine if the NPC he/she is talking to would provide information, help or kick the player's ass. The decision making would be in identifying who to talk to, depending on your PCs diplomatic repertoire.

The problem with this approach, is that there is hardly any room for interesting and unique NPCs, and the story would also suffer.

Haba · Nov 26, 2009

Remove combat from Haven & Hearth and you have a framework for non-combat RPG. Just add a story, some characters and quests.

Andyman Messiah · Nov 26, 2009

Combat is really second focus in PS:T. Character and story development is done far more by talking and investigating. In the latest playthroughs I've walked through all the combat areas with that red glowing cheater's axe and unequipping it when I was done killing stuff.

Then again, this is what I do in most Infinity Engine games.

Derper · Nov 26, 2009

IT IS TOTALLY POSSIBLE TO AVOID COMBAT IN FALLOUT

Andyman Messiah · Nov 26, 2009

Yes, but can you avoid rats?

relootz · Nov 26, 2009

Mmmmm horse steak

Lesifoere · Nov 26, 2009

AzraelCC said:
I don't mean a game with the option to make-believe your character is intellectual or a rogue. Are there any RPGs whose mechanics are meant for roleplaying a character who does not focus on combat?

Well, the first bits of Lionheart plus Barcelona can be played while avoiding combat almost entirely. Charm/flirt your way out of anything.

Andhaira · Nov 26, 2009

An rpg without combat is an adventure game.

Lonely Vazdru · Nov 26, 2009

AzraelCC said:
Truth be told, I'd like to see something like the dialogue system in The Sims to be adopted in RPGs.

Wouldn't a no-combat RPG be a lot like the Sims ? Sims in space, Renaissance Sims, Victorian Monocle Steampunk Sims, whatever setting Sims...

JarlFrank · Nov 26, 2009

Bloodlines, anyone?

Yes, it has combat, but you don't get any XP for killing things, only for solving quests, and using your dialogue skills can be extremely useful and give you new solutions and in some cases even more XP. Levelling your dialogue skills is more important than levelling your combat skills (at least in the early parts of the game) because there are many cases where a successful persuasion or seduction check can provide a shortcut to a quest, allowing you to skip some combat and even get more XP for it than if you took the standard route. Some quests also gave you more XP if you brought along an item that requires you to use lockpick, hack or sneak to get.

If you want to make an RPG with minimal combat, recieving no XP for killing but rather for solving quests (and getting more XP for creatively using your non-combat skills) is the way to go.

Lesifoere · Nov 26, 2009

Good point. When there's no reward for killing shit, players are more likely to avoid combat.

AzraelCC · Nov 26, 2009

JarlFrank said:
Bloodlines, anyone?

Yeah, I guess VTM:B does fit the bill, even though it had some really combat heavy areas. If I remember correctly, the skill sets in the game were pretty balanced--there were more non-combat skills than combat skills. But then its system is very similar to GURPS, wherein the mechanics for combat and non-combat were pretty much the same.

Lesifoere said:
Well, the first bits of Lionheart plus Barcelona can be played while avoiding combat almost entirely. Charm/flirt your way out of anything.

True, but it really went downhill after that. What a disappointment, since the setting should have been the game's strength.

Lonely Vazdru said:
Wouldn't a no-combat RPG be a lot like the Sims ? Sims in space, Renaissance Sims, Victorian Monocle Steampunk Sims, whatever setting Sims...

Well, aren't P&P RPGs basically world simulators? The Game Master is supposed to simulate the consequences of the actions of the players in a manner that is believable within the game world. In fact, I think that the Holy Grail of RPGs for the Codex is a more realized concept set by Darklands. You can be whatever you want to be--the ultimate incarnation of C&C is that if you choose not to follow the main quest or story, there would still be believable consequences. The aversion of the Codex towards "The Chosen One" would also be considered.

AndhairaX said:
An rpg without combat is an adventure game.

The Adventure genre is a combination of interactive storytelling and puzzles. Hence, to advance the story in an adventure game, you have to solve the puzzles--puzzles which usually have one solution. If RPGs were to follow the same aims as that of P&P RPGs, then even without combat, the unique aspect of an RPG is that there are several ways to advance the story as opposed to the linear progression of adventure games. IDEALLY.

ghostdog · Nov 26, 2009

Exactly, it's far better when combat is just an option and not a necessity. Fallout achieves that and Bloodlines comes close since there are only 3 boss-fights necessary to advance the plot. Heck, even Deus Ex can be finished without engaging in combat (and here words can kill, literary...

) Also what I really like is that in three of my favorite games (PST,Fallout,Arcanum) you can resolve the last showdown through conversation.

lightbane · Nov 26, 2009

There was a pen-and-paper tabletop rpg where the setting was the world of dreams, someone mentioned here in another topic, if I recall correctly combat was a secondary thing in that game.

And yes, Bloodlines encourages (until you're confused with fucking Neo) non-violent ways to solve your problems. In fact, I insist we need another World of darkness crpg.

PS: Or even better, a wh40k rpg using the rules of Dark Heresy, it would beat alone all of these "dark and gritty" games at once.

FeelTheRads · Nov 26, 2009

JarlFrank said:
Bloodlines, anyone?

Yes, it has combat, but you don't get any XP for killing things, only for solving quests, and using your dialogue skills can be extremely useful and give you new solutions and in some cases even more XP. Levelling your dialogue skills is more important than levelling your combat skills (at least in the early parts of the game) because there are many cases where a successful persuasion or seduction check can provide a shortcut to a quest, allowing you to skip some combat and even get more XP for it than if you took the standard route. Some quests also gave you more XP if you brought along an item that requires you to use lockpick, hack or sneak to get.

If you want to make an RPG with minimal combat, recieving no XP for killing but rather for solving quests (and getting more XP for creatively using your non-combat skills) is the way to go.

No experience for combat? Pah? Adventure game! [/mondblut]

VentilatorOfDoom · Nov 26, 2009

Bloodlines does it really well, and important: you don't lose anything if you don't fight and avoid combat. In most RPGs non-violent solutions feel like the sub-par ones, you don't get the shiny weapon drops, you don't get cash/loot and you get less XP if any.

Black Cat · Nov 26, 2009

@ Lightbane

You mean The Dreaming?

I totally love The Dreaming. And combat is totally secondary in The Dreaming but it is a very unique setting, i don't think it could work as well in, like, a setting where you can't change how the entire system works from one scene to the next, since usually a good The Dreaming gamemaster is changing house rules and stuff every scene to reflect the changing nature of the realm of dreams and, like, the rules unique to the dream the characters are currently on. So if there's a purely social chapter the gamemaster adapts how the system works to emphatize social interactions and roleplaying and then adds all the house rules unique to that one kingdom or land or dream to make the puzzles and situations work as desired, and later she turns off all the rules she no longer want, at times even halfway through a scene. And then if there's a purely dungeon crawling chapter the gamemaster can change the rules to make the puzzles and riddles and battles and monsters work just as he wants them to, up to the most basic laws of physics, on the move.

But then The Dreaming would not work at all outside pen and paper, and as a computer role playing game it would be horrible. It would maybe work as, like, a visual novel with role playing elements, because it is totally narrativistic and theatral. The system blows by itself, nya.

Wyrmlord · Nov 26, 2009

FeelTheRads said:
No experience for combat? Pah? Adventure game! [/mondblut]

Eh, BaK does not have XP for combat.

Still a combat-intensive RPG.

Hell, take out XP, and just keep money for training into higher levels, and it'd still be just the same IMO.

An RPG Without Combat

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