How would you make the JRPG genre...

[Giauz Ragnacock]

... make the JRPG genre more nuanced but still diverse from the classic CRPG conventions that the Codex has great respect for.

Hey, I do get that JRPGs are not trying to recreate the PnP RPG experience that inspired the electronic RPG industry, but the statistics-reliant battle systems of RPGs and the use of dungeons as a prominent feature has remained the core of these games despite greater focus on trying to retell the hero's journey.

As for me, my experience with the idea of RPGs began with Morrowind (though I have never liked and know much of it through watching my brother play) and KOTOR followed by KOTOR 2, Jade Empire, Fable the Lost Chapters, Final Fantasy (1-4, 6-7, 13), Chrono Trigger, Live-A-Live, and Dark Souls (currently I have that Atari DnD Anthology on loan from CRPG Addict, but I'm having trouble getting into games of all genres and eras this year). So, yeah, I have played more JRPGs than CRPGS, but I have done a lot of reading on the entire history of how all this electronic RPG business got started and went from there.

This is just another one of my chances to get more information (as those JRPG vs. WRPG topics have begun to repeat themselves).

So, I humbly come before the RPG Codex with this think-tank experiment:

Anything new you can think of that the JRPG genre could do, but one could still say that the CRPGs and JRPGs scratch totally different itches?

 

[racofer]

Re: How would you...

... make the JRPG genre more nuanced but still diverse from the classic CRPG conventions that the Codex has great respect for?

I wouldn't.

 

[Cassidy]

If JRPGs suddenly used games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout as models they would already totally deviate from the current "convention" of Western Yet Another Shitty Interactive Movie with retarded QTE and pop-a-mole minigames between cutscenes labelled RPG.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

Racofer: That's alright, too. I myself don't really look at games in a genre sort of way, but some of the games I have liked enough to obsessively finish have fit in the JRPGs. So, I guess my question doesn't really suit my needs.

Still, in the shoes of a game designer, you are tasked with creating a statistics-reliant combat system, level design that prominently features dungeons, and a story that is just about set in stone (what would your story be?). There is room for variation, but explain how it would still serve to make the game distinct from most CRPGs.

I wasn't expecting much conversation to begin with, but I thought it beat talking about the popular topics of Skyrim and Dark Souls. Whatever, you do post, I thank you for your time anyways.

 

[mondblut]

... make the JRPG genre more nuanced but still diverse from the classic CRPG conventions that the Codex has great respect for.

1. Rent a more pretentious D&D setting, or invent something pretentious yourself.
2. Hire Avellone.
3. Fire the japs.
4. ...
5. PST!

 

[Duckard]

To be fair, the there are JRPGs which are pretty much dungeon crawlers. They're extremely different from modern western RPG titles, even if they aren't so different from older CRPGs.

Anyway, I haven't really played that many JRPGs, but I think it's hard to say what about the whole genre needs to change. I mean, I could say the combat sucks for one game, but can't do so about the whole genre. I guess if some Japanese developers drew inspiration from good CRPGs, they might come up with something interesting...

You're asking us to think up a fun JRPG, but we obviously like CRPGs more (I do anyway), so it'll just be a fun CRPG minus some fun elements to differentiate it.

 

[zeitgeist]

Use the tactical jRPG subgenre (Ogre/FFT/etc.) as the model for battles, make it more complex, add a decent level of customizability (custom-made characters, non-linear skill progression, visible equipment that supports different builds, crafting, non-combat classes/skills), don't make the main quest completely linear, less cutscenes/more content, add a lot of sidequests and diversions (FFXII), and a less static gameworld with multiple layers of social/economic/combat interaction.

Same things that would make the current "wRPGs" better really.

 

[laclongquan]

FF8 with prettier graphic. MOAR BLOOM!!! ITs story and gameplay is perfect, better than any CRPG you care to name but its 2D art perfection could stand a transition into 3D bloom tech. It's strictly non-CnC, so CnCfags can just cry.

Chronos Cross with prettier graphic. MOAR BLOOM!!! In term of 2D art it's as perfect as FF8. The difference is that FF8 story is strictly linear, while Chronos Cross has CnC running out of your ears. Multiple routes, multiple endings. Take that!

Mind you, since you are talking about hypothetical games, I dont mind a prettier FF7. The damn thing ages extremely unwell. I am curious about its gameplay in a newer clothes.

 

[Achmed1974]

THe problem with JRPG's(amd there are many) is that the focus has shifted from consoles to handhelds due to development costs and companies not interested in hyperealistic HD games. And the perception with handhelds are they are for a younger audience or that they are dumbed down. Atlus has a great series with SMT but thec casual audience currently is eating up the reinvented Persona series which is decidedly aimed at pedos and casual rpg gamers.

The SaGa series had some western influences with the open ended story and focus on strategic battles and character customization. But Unlimited SaGa was just way too weird and hardcore and that series and team has been banished these days to the social gaming scene.

I think the most impressive designed rpg the last serveral years from Japan is that Xenoblade game on the Wii. It uses alot of a very fun conventions like character affinity you see in Bioware games but they take it a step further in that it unlocks special attacks in battle. Completely open ended world with hundreds of quests and places to explore. The character designs don't possess the many painful cliches you associate with the anime inspired series or FF.

 

[made]

I don't get what you're asking. Jrpgs are already more diverse and nuanced than Wrpgs at this point. They get story focused games like FF, tactical RPGs, Wiz-style dungeon crawlers, action rpgs... We get OTS single PC action RPG with swords, or OTS single PC action RPG with guns.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

Duckard, made, I guess you are right. Agh, trying to look at JRPGs and make them some how "better" was a stupid way of me looking at it. If you add in a lot of details to try and make a game world you would loose a specific detailed story. On the other hand there really are a crapton of various styles of JRPGs, some on the DS (I don't have one and my younger siblings aren't really into anything like RPGs except for maybe Oblivion and Fable the Lost Chapters, which play similar now that I think about it despite TES games falling flat for me) that I will probably never see if I can't save up enough money to buy them.

I don't know what I'm doing. Since Spring 2009 I've been obsessed with video game history and design (particularly CRPGs and a little of their eastern relatives). 2011 rolls around and now nearly gone and I think I am burned out. The reading and posting about part of video games is all I do anymore, none of the playing is fun. I was enjoying the first hour or so of PST and then nothing.

Off-topic, far off I know, but have any of you ever lost that feeling of fun out of the blue and how did you get it back (if you did)?

 

[Hobo Elf]

The reason why everything feels so stagnated now is because no one wants to make one game and be happy with it. If it sells well, it must have sequels and possibly whore out into other mediums as well.
Just look at Square, for example. Back in the SNES and PS1 days they had a bunch of different series and even one shots that they worked on, most of which ranged from decent to really good. Now All they do is Final Fantasy with the odd Kingdom Hearts, both with a heavy focus on graphics and darkness to appeal to the hot topic crowd. No good gameplay or writing to be seen anywhere. This is why all the people who actually did know how to make good games ragequit.

 

[Zomg]

The stereotypical FF-style JRPG is basically an older version of stuff like Uncharted which is selling a pre-created story divided and served up between discrete chunks of non-sequitur gameplay that has nothing to do with it. They started getting unpopular because 1) they were superceded by newer stuff with more attractive stories and more painless-pleasure things to do than turnbased grinding (like Uncharted) and 2) graphics became good enough that they couldn't do simple iconographic character designs anymore that could appeal to both their bizarre domestic and Euro-American audiences. Instead you have shit that ranges between 3D versions of super-stylized manga and Japanese fashion and they don't appeal to anyone.

Making them popular without demolishing them would mean they'd have to have the same psychotic budgets of stuff like Uncharted to compete with those presentations, they'd have to use art designs that aren't vile, and the interspersed gameplay would have to be relentlessly interesting yet very easy TB combat. So basically they'd have to first massively outdesign and then disgorge the same levels of money as the Eurokwas but they can't because they aren't connected to the better financial hoses.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The reason why everything feels so stagnated now is because no one wants to make one game and be happy with it. If it sells well, it must have sequels and possibly whore out into other mediums as well.
Just look at Square, for example. Back in the SNES and PS1 days they had a bunch of different series and even one shots that they worked on, most of which ranged from decent to really good. Now All they do is Final Fantasy with the odd Kingdom Hearts, both with a heavy focus on graphics and darkness to appeal to the hot topic crowd. No good gameplay or writing to be seen anywhere. This is why all the people who actually did know how to make good games ragequit.

Fucking this. It's also why, ie, Valkyria Chronicles turned out so great, since it had absolutely no sequel bait and instead just focused on being a fucking good game. Though it did end up getting sequels on handhelds and stuff, but that's how these things were in the old days: It got a sequel because it was a great game that performed well in sales.


Though not to say that planning long storylines covering multiple games is necessarily a bad thing, seeing how Legacy of Kain series is.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Clarification: JRPG will be used to refer to the JRPG genre in my post, not all RPGs from Japan. I see a lot of you guys discussing games that are not JRPGs.

Improving the JRPG without moving away from the JRPG formula is going to be very difficult to pull off.

JRPG combat CAN be fun, but it is very difficult for the developer to make it fun. Random encounters are usually less fun than handcrafted encounters, but they're a JRPG staple.

The handcrafted encounters that are present in typical JRPGs are undermined by the emphasis on leveling up through random encounters and the traditional practice of fighting extra encounters to get stronger. The developer doesn't know what level you will be when you face the handcrafted encounter, so it is hard for him to achieve a great balance of difficulty. If he assumes you'll grind, but you don't then you might lose the encounter. If he assumes you won't grind much, but you do, then the encounter might be made too easy.

These factors are exacerbated by the relatively simplistic combat of JRPGs. Typically the combat will be menu driven, turn based or pseudo turn based and will abstract or eliminate positioning to a significant degree. The developer's toolbox is pretty limited by the lack of positioning and the impossibility of knowing the player's level.

It can be done though. I've played a pure JRPG where by coincidence or design the developer managed to maintain perfect balance throughout the game. IE: I never had to grind, but the handcrafted encounters were quite challenging so I had to use most of the abilities and items available to just barely win. Some of the random encounters were even interesting. So this game was actually fun. Of course, I could have ruined it if I decided to grind a bit.

Most developers seem to go for a different option though, making random encounters more and more painless (and mindless). For example, in the Dragon Quest remakes for DS, the majority of random encounters are handled by just holding down A, you don't even need to look at the screen. This is certainly painless, but it's something you do a lot of and it's not particularly fun.

Grinding is also pretty much required in those remakes at some point. It's the most painless grinding that you'll ever come across, but it still puts the difficulty in the player's hands. IE: You run across a fight where you will clearly have to grind, but you have to decide how much to grind. It's easy to overgrind a bit and trivialize the game for a while.

So I would say that the best bet to improve JRPGs is to move to away from random encounters and move towards a more complex combat system with positioning. But then they would probably be moving away from the JRPG genre.

Staying within the genre, I'd like to see them adopt and promote a grinding is for wimps mentality and focus on achieving perfect (and challenging) balance for the player who moves through the game without fighting any extra encounters, then explain that this is how the game is meant to be played.

There are definitely some good innovations that have been made to increase the complexity of JRPG battles, but as long as the games encourage you to grind, it's unlikely that you'll face the hand crafted encounters at the "right" level to get the best possible fight from them.

Also, decrease emphasis on story.

Stories in JRPGs are automatically going to suck, because:

a) They're stories in videogames
b) They're translated from a foreign language
c) They're from Japan and Japanese attitudes are weird.
d) The mechanics don't really support a focus on storytelling. (IE: if someone dies, it's not dramatic, just use Pheonix Down!)

It's really going to be tough to fix this genre though, it's amazing that it was ever successful, given that you spend almost all of your time doing things that are not fun or challenging: grinding, reading bad stories, walking around looking for treasure chests.

 

[treave]

I think the most impressive designed rpg the last serveral years from Japan is that Xenoblade game on the Wii. It uses alot of a very fun conventions like character affinity you see in Bioware games but they take it a step further in that it unlocks special attacks in battle.

And even that concept isn't entirely new. I seem to remember an RPG or two from the SNES era having that feature, but off-hand I can only recall Thousand Arms on the PSX, where intimacy levels allow you access to more powerful spells and skills. Star Ocean was already doing affection points before Baldur's Gate 2 took the neckbeard world by storm with its romances.

Staying within the genre, I'd like to see them adopt and promote a grinding is for wimps mentality and focus on achieving perfect (and challenging) balance for the player who moves through the game without fighting any extra encounters, then explain that this is how the game is meant to be played.

This is where level scaling actually works. Unlike open world action RPGs, the random encounters in a typical, somewhat linear jRPG means that you can safely scale levels and stats of enemies to ensure players still have to rely on character skills to win. Once they figure out that spending a disproportionate amount of time in early game areas to ensure an easy breeze through the game doesn't work, they won't do it anymore (it'll be noticeable when 3 arduous level ups later they still aren't one-shotting their enemies).

Sure, there may be the odd few that would grind for hours in the early game just to get that high-level uber spell or broken skill that wipes out enemies in one shot, but anyone who would grind that much wouldn't be put off from doing it no matter what you do.

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

:clap: Wow, that was awesome -ness guys. I have enjoyed the reads. One idea I thought of and would like to see is a game that focuses more on the mentality of your charcter rather than his/her physique. Story is the main focus in RPGs, so depending on what you do in the game (deciding to kill someone who betrayed you versus letting them live, entering other people's house and stealing versus doing your best without expecting reward/ using underhanded tactics to become stronger, etc.) your character's personality changes reflected in his options when interacting in battle and out (unless there is some reason to get the skill, would a character who despises thievery just out of the blue pick up lock-picking as I haven't in real life) and your character's and your party's interactions would be different depending on who you are. More drastic decisions will alter your personality stats in more noticable ways than lighter-weighted decisions. I think it would be fun to mold your character within the story this way rather than str, dex, con, etc.

As for decline causing my disinterest in playing games, I am not completely sure as all games (even old ones and some flash games that I thought were truly awesome) are just too hard to start playing and then keep enthusiasm over. I did a search and appearantly I am not an isolated case. Even one kid as young as fourteen hasn't found anything he can play anymore (even old games on PC/console). Maybe reading and posting on the net has just superceded what I feel is worth using my freetime on. Anyone got any advice?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Also, decrease emphasis on story.

Stories in JRPGs are automatically going to suck, because:

a) They're stories in videogames
b) They're translated from a foreign language
c) They're from Japan and Japanese attitudes are weird.
d) The mechanics don't really support a focus on storytelling. (IE: if someone dies, it's not dramatic, just use Pheonix Down!)

Problem is, points b and c don't affect the japanese, which are the ones making these games.

Anyone got any advice?

Keep away from the internet for a while, if possible. It's indded hard to keep interested in one activity when you're contantly showered with new information every second.

 

[J1M]

1. Don't let japanese people make it.

 

[J1M]

For a "jrpg made by westerners" see the Penny Arcade game.

 

[Duckard]

1. Don't let japanese people make it.

This was done with Lord of the Rings: The Third Age and it didn't work out too well.

 

[crufty]

Jrpg have some good mechanics.

Great art.

They can bring interesting and tight game play.

A tendency to thumb nose at some conventions.

But the writing, voice acting, lack of state / world interaction, and how every character is this ultra predictable, cliched Archtype make them tough for me to swallow.

 

[jancobblepot]

Great art.

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[betamin]

Better writing (they focus so much on the story yet it sucks balls).
Better combat (no hordes of boring shit to wade through, more options, make it non random, make it so that you can evade it if you like like Chrono Cross, maybe give relevance to positioning)
No grind (who the fuck likes grinding).
Up the difficulty.

You have to keep in mind these games (like most) are aimed at CHILDREN, so when we say "they're easy" or "the story aint shit" we have to keep in mind what would a 13 year old kid would say.

 

[Father Walker]

Aren't all JRPG mechanics ripped-off from western games made in 80's anyway? Western RPGs did evolve through all these years, at least until gaming wasn't as mainstream as it is today. Japs seem to rehash same shitty mechanics over and over, not to mention that anime artstyle is shitty beyond redemption.

Anything new you can think of that the JRPG genre could do, but one could still say that the CRPGs and JRPGs scratch totally different itches?

JRPGS cater to overweight fucks who fap to anime and want to be japanese.
WRPGS cater to overweight fucks who fap to dragons and want to be elves.

As you can see there is a lot of stuff, which can be added to JRPG and still make it scratch a totally different itch than WRPG. Tentacles, trannies, child rape. The possibilities are endless.