How important are races in your cRPG?

[Alchemist]

I really don't want to derail Cynic's thread too much (I should put up a dev thread somewhere...)

I'm still in very early stages of design so a lot of details could change - but it will be a party-based, turn-based 1st-person blobber CRPG at the core. Inspired by Wizardry / Might & Magic / Grimoire, roguelikes and old-school PnP AD&D. Setting is kind of up in the air at the moment but it most certainly won't be traditional fantasy. I'll post more details at some point in the development forum.

You go, guy! That's exactly the kind of game we need more of. I don't mind fantasy, especially if it is properly mixed with sci-fi in an intelligent way.

Thanks for the encouragement! And you've read my mind - a science-fantasy hybrid is where I'm heavily leaning toward.

I implore you to reconsider on blob combat though. Have first person exploration but switch to a combat grid during battles

I have heavily considered the battle-map switch approach (ala goldbox, RoA) - which l would love to have - but being an amateur developer I'm uncertain I can pull off that added complexity just yet. We'll see though - I'm still considering it.

 

[Excidium]

I can see the added difficulties with AI and what not, but it would definitely be worth it by how much more fun it makes combat. Not to mention your game would be even more cool and unique. There's a bunch of FP and top down CRPGs in the making but not one that combines the best of both worlds (Unless you count RoA 1 remake or Space Shock which are both rather poor efforts)

 

[mediocrepoet]

I like race choice, but prefer it when there are mechanical differences between them. I don't mind relatively minor stat differences/abilities (like 2nd edition AD&D races) or fairly major ones. What I absolutely hate though is when the choices are purely cosmetic (as seen in TOR MMO) - why waste time even making "different" races at all then when the choice is simply between skin colour and maybe ear shape or whether you wear sunglasses?

In any case, maybe it's due to my roots in tabletop gaming, but I've always looked at race choice as one of the first important decisions regarding defining a character. And, I suppose if a setting didn't really allow for racial types or species differences, tribal/clan differences could also be interesting. You can see that in (tabletop) games like Tribe 8, Legend of the Five Rings and the AD&D Birthright setting (regarding human subtypes).

 

[Alchemist]

I like having a variety of races to choose from...but if the only options are human, short human and pointy-eared human, why even bother? If they're not human, they shouldn't look, think or act like humans.

I believe modern games have such similar races due to the cost of making 3D assets. That's why we saw so much more creativity and diversity in the old days of 2D game art.

I can see the added difficulties with AI and what not, but it would definitely be worth it by how much more fun it makes combat. Not to mention your game would be even more cool and unique. There's a bunch of FP RPGs and top down games in the making but not one that combines the best of both worlds (Unless you count RoA 1 remake or Space Shock which are both rather poor efforts)

Yeah I totally agree about that. I'm just trying to be realistic - if I want to get my game out in a reasonable amount of time. Anyway, hold tight til I get my own thread going - would love to talk more in depth about it.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Well, for some people races are definitely important, I've known some people who play elves or dwarves exclusively, if the option was available. Probably have something to do with archetypes - i.e. wise, beautiful, androgynous, poetical and arrogant or loyal, stout, down-to-earth, stubborn, masculine and practical. Never encountered fans of hobbits (or kenders, or other derivative) or gnomes, but I'm pretty sure they exist too. Also, funny thing with orks and evil races in general - many people who play evil elves (not necessarily drow) and orks are deferring to same stereotypes as elves/dwarves above, only somewhat inverted (androgynous vs masculine, decadent vs barbaric, etc.). Heh, and Russians really like to play out a stereotype of an evil civilization in MMORPGs, so choosing favorite race can be (probably) influenced by negative or positive socio-cultural stereotypes.

As for me, I've never found races particularly important, and if there's option to pick one, I usually play human or some human hybrid (half-elf, half-ork, and so on). I think that stories and games could be as interesting without other races, it's just many players want established stereotypes. And not only players - developers often overuse said stereotypes even when they try to invent new races, take Mass Effect for example. Asari = lesbian elves, volus and salarians are each part of the gnome archetype, krogans are basically mix of orks and trolls, etc.

As for interesting races - if we take fantasy, than I liked subverted races in Dark Sun's setting.

And also liked unique races in Planescape setting

Sci-fi... Well, it's hard to say. Most of my favorite books had been human-centric, there are not many games with unique races, and I've never played sci-fi PnP. Well, Jack Vance had somewhat unique alien races in his novels, Vernor Vinge, oh, and China Mieville.

 

[Caim]

Races can be made more interesting if given something of a twist. Dwarves are often associated with jews, but they have more in common with Sikhism, especially its five Ks: Kesh (long, uncut hair and beards for men), Kachhera (long underwear, representing a conservative sexual morale and that you are willing to accept the consequences of taking them off when getting laid), Kangha (a wooden comb carried in the hair; just because you don't cut your hair doesn't mean you don't have to care for it), Karra (a steel armlet, symbolising the Dwarves' aptitude with metals) and the Kirban (a dagger, few dwarves would go out without carrying at least one weapon). Something like that could make the Dwarves more interesting. Plus, the Sikh don't drink alcohol, which makes it an aversion of the perpetual drunk Dwarves.

Orcs have been defined as pig-like or gorilla-like, but what about other animals? Crocodilian Orcs could be interesting, or hircine Orcs could make for a welcome twist.

For Gnomes, I'd say remove the fetish for machinery and go full-on David the Gnome stuff, except they're taller. Or take inspiration from west-European folklore.

For Halflings, have them live in some kind of facist police state or something. Make them all act like dicks to everyone.

 

[Coriolanus]

So far most cRPGs have only really ever managed to fall in one of either 2 categories with races - Tolkien style (D&D) or Furries.

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/index.php?title=Species

Out of those ... 24? the majority are neither Tolkienesque nor furry. You have Mummies, Spriggans, Sludge Elves (who couldn't be more different from Tolkien Elves), Demigods etc. all with different (sometimes, radically so) gameplay.

 

[TigerKnee]

Sludge Elves are on their way out of Crawl btw.

Replacing them are Gargoyles (low HP, high AC, good at Hand to Hand and Earth magic), Lava Orcs (normally slow with tough skin, but in times of danger start heating up and has a flame aura) and Djinn (combines HP and MP in one stat called essence)

So yeah, Crawl must be one of the few games where your choice of race is probably the most significant part of character creation.

 

[PosledniKovboj]

oh, and China Mieville.

Big titted urban amazon-likes with bugs instead of their heads was it? Good times.

 

[Ackermanus]

I like having a variety of races to choose from...but if the only options are human, short human and pointy-eared human, why even bother? If they're not human, they shouldn't look, think or act like humans.

This. In most games, you could easily replace all/most races with humans from different cultures and nothing of value would be lost. Often, you would in fact get a more credible game. If you would include multiple humanoid races in your game, you should ask:

- If immortal/insanely tough/magically-gifted race existed, how would they behave, as individuals and as a society? Certainly they wouldn't simply be "human, but very wise and patient".
- If they are so above the normal human, how would the human race be able to exist? If you answer this question with "They are too wise and patient to intervene in human affairs as they come to dominate the globe." or "Humans breed very fast and defeated the peaceful GENERICELVES, who now live as second-class citizens.", you will likely want to reconsider your inclusion of these races, unless you really know what you are doing.
- What technology would such creatures develop? How would their clothing and buildings and weapons look? If your race is magically apt, why would their ancestors bother with smelting metal? Would they even "bother" abandoning a nomadic lifestyle?
- If they are a playable race, what makes them unique? If they just have -1 HP/Level and +1 Defense, wouldn't it be better to leave them as unplayable, as something to be discovered by the Human PC to hopefully immerse and surprise the player?
- Related to the above, are you willing to create unique dialogue and story to reflect the fact that the non-human player character is so different from the others? And if he isn't, again, why isn't said race simply a different culture of humans?

Different settings succeed more or less in different aspects, but to be honest, most of them are so half-assed I'd rather play a no-magic setting. That said, it doesn't usually bother me enough to stop me from playing a game. And of course, if you are playing a more action-oriented or less serious setting, then by all means keep the elves as the guys from the fallen empire with +2 DEX -2 CON.

 

[Ogg]

I want me some blob RPG?

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Races are a big plus for me, I can't think of any multi race game where I played a human. They come off as the generic, relatable character for self inserts. I'll mirror the sentiments of some of the other posters in this thread, that if you're going to make race barely a factor, then just add different human ethnicities; I prefer races to be truly diverse. Some of the reasons why I value the addition of fantasy races: 1, there is nothing quite similar irl, the whole reason for choosing a fantasy setting is to be able to break the bounds of realism, and you're going to make humanity the only intelligent species on earth? That's even LESS interesting than earth's history, we had neanderthal, a distinct race of humans not unlike fantasy dwarves.

One thing that separate human cultures can never accomplish is the roleplay factor. Unlike humans, these races are instantly distinguishable(When done right.), and there should be different reactions/limitations from playing that race. It's also an interesting thing to consider, how would the races co-exist? Racism existed forever with humanity, despite the differences between them being minuscule at most. These races are undeniably different and alien.

I think Mass Effect did the races fairly well, difference between them is more than just a slight stat boost or a racial skill.

 

[himmy]

When given the choice, I always play Dwarf. Because they're usually the only race you can put a fucking decent beard on, all other races usually sticking to musketeer/fiveoclockshadow/cleanshaven bullshit.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I don't mind if a game don't have races. But if it has I'd lkie to see something like Arcanum or Bloodlines.

And if there is a chance that I can play as a dwarf in any game, thats insta-buy!

 

[Cynic]

This has been a good thread.

The consensus is pretty much what I predicted and what I also agree with.

Races are often handled poorly, basically only affecting stat choices.

They add an extra element to character customisation and therefore emmershun for larpers, but other than this, racial choice rarely affects anything that happens in game as far as role playing elements are concerned.

What would be an improvement for racial choices would be game world differences based on your choice, for example quests being different based on your race or plot arcs that are made available/unavailable due to your race etc.,

Thanks a lot bros, quite helpful.

 

[mondblut]

As we've gone along we've pretty much lost gnome/halfling type races in games. Probably due to budget constraints and so forth.

Probably due to the fact few people enjoy playing midgets, and midgets that suck balls in melee to boot.

So why do game designers still persist at this? Laziness? A lack of originality? Or do races add some other kind of intrinsic value to an RPG that cannot be achieved by other means?

Just another means to customize characters beyond class, skills and stats (even more relevant since a third of games has no skills and another third, no classes). Anything that gives an additional +1 to str or dex over the rest of stuff you have chosen is good, no? I wish gender and alignment wouldn't be only cosmetic.

Also on from this, would a game where the only choice was human, but there were "nations" or "clans" of humans who had certain traits be as acceptable?

Only as long as the "nation" with black skin has -5 int

 

[mondblut]

Never understood why gnomes became one of D&D's traditional races. Dwarfs, elves and hobbits halflings all come from Tolkien, but gnomes don't. In fact, they don't have much of a concept behind them (except maybe in Dragonlance, where they're crazy inventors).

They do have a concept behind them.

Spoiler

 

[crufty]

from a Tolkien perspective--and I am not a Tolkien expert--I have wondered if the breakdown was really:

dwarves = norwegians
elves = swedes
hobbits = danes

Soon then saw that shepherd-of-evils
that never he met in this middle-world,
in the ways of earth, another wight
with heavier hand-gripe; at heart he feared,
sorrowed in soul, -- none the sooner escaped!

Races are important to rpg's because they help promote the fantasy.

 

[bhlaab]

I liked the clans in Vampire: Bloodlines just because it resulted in very distinct playstyles, in a way that I'd almost consider them closer to an evolution on Fallout's Traits system than anything else.
Otherwise I generally dislike them. I wouldn't mind as much if it was just cosmetic, but I just don't like being pigeonholed into certain things before I've even started playing. They're mostly dumb and mechanically pointless. Not to mention thematically pointless most of the time, as well. Like, we get it Dragon Age. Those "elves" sure are oppressed. Check out that that "elf" ghetto for "elves". I'd be more impressed if you just said what you mean.

Furthermore can someone please finally explain what's going on with the fucking dwarf thing. Like, in settings that include dwarves as a separate race are there humans who have dwarfism? Are there not humans who are just kind of short, like there are in reality? It would stand to reason then that some dwarves would be taller than others, right?

 

[Cynic]

I liked the clans in Vampire: Bloodlines just because it resulted in very distinct playstyles, in a way that I'd almost consider them closer to an evolution on Fallout's Traits system than anything else.
Otherwise I generally dislike them. I wouldn't mind as much if it was just cosmetic, but I just don't like being pigeonholed into certain things before I've even started playing. They're mostly dumb and mechanically pointless. Not to mention thematically pointless most of the time, as well. Like, we get it Dragon Age. Those "elves" sure are oppressed. Check out that that "elf" ghetto for "elves". I'd be more impressed if you just said what you mean.

Furthermore can someone please finally explain what's going on with the fucking dwarf thing. Like, in settings that include dwarves as a separate race are there humans who have dwarfism? Are there not humans who are just kind of short, like there are in reality? It would stand to reason then that some dwarves would be taller than others, right?

I think some people rate dwarves because they are generally a brutish manly type race and the people that love them are probably over compensating for something through role playing.

Anyway, I have come to the opinion that the sort of stuff that happened in D&D was probably fine from a table top perspective, but when transferred to a video game, doesn't really work. It's very easy to build a campaign around different races etc., but translating this to a programmed environment and all the shit that goes along with it is a huge task.

Dragon Age actually gets quite a few points here honestly. They managed to pull it off somewhat convincingly.

I'm much more in favour of a clans/traits based system where some clans would be kind of better at one thing than another but these wouldn't necessarily inhibit them from being another class. On top of that it would be a purely cosmetic/lore based thing.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

It's their height, people like steven merchant play dwarves to compensate for being so tall. No but seriously, that kind of pseudo psychological analysis is silly, I think people are more likely to play what they relate to in physicality, personality, or values. Dwarves are very scandinavian, hairy, stocky, etc etc. Value system: dwarves are conservative, honor bound, right wing, xenophobic etc etc.

We like that which is like us, and humans are fairly vague in most fantasy games.

 

[Ranselknulf]

So much hatred for the little people.

 

[Esquilax]

Playing a Redguard is by definition racist:

• They're good with weapons? All blacks are violent.
• They're good with magic? Playing into the magical negro thing, aren't you.
• Sneaking? So they're all criminals.
• Good with a bow? So they all hunt game like they live in Africa or something?
• Alchemy? So all blacks do drugs.
• Smithing/cooking/whatever? So they're doing household work, like a slave.
• Jewelmaking? So they all wear bling.
• Light armor? So they all dress in furs and shit.

This is unwinnable by definition.

Wait, but aren't the Redguard also great sailors as well? Everyone knows black people can't swim, so wouldn't this be a positive reversal of that nasty stereotype?

 

[Esquilax]

Races can be made more interesting if given something of a twist. Dwarves are often associated with jews, but they have more in common with Sikhism, especially its five Ks: Kesh (long, uncut hair and beards for men), Kachhera (long underwear, representing a conservative sexual morale and that you are willing to accept the consequences of taking them off when getting laid), Kangha (a wooden comb carried in the hair; just because you don't cut your hair doesn't mean you don't have to care for it), Karra (a steel armlet, symbolising the Dwarves' aptitude with metals) and the Kirban (a dagger, few dwarves would go out without carrying at least one weapon). Something like that could make the Dwarves more interesting. Plus, the Sikh don't drink alcohol, which makes it an aversion of the perpetual drunk Dwarves.

I would love to see something like this. The real problem that you're getting at here is that when there are multiple races in a fantasy game, there is no such thing as culture. Sure, humans have some semblance of culture even in badly written games because they're the focus of the game, but that's about it. Even in a game that tries to have some sort of grimdark twist on elves/dwarves/orcs, you pretty much know exactly what you're going to get. You don't get the sense that they are a people forged from a history that made them into what they are. This is what everybody misses out on when they try to rip off Tolkien.

But this is just the storyfag reason for why not much has been done with races. The gameplay issue is that race rarely place anywhere near as big of a role as stats or class in a lot of games, so with a few exceptions, it just becomes window dressing.

 

[Ranselknulf]

It would be fun if some races had a severe disadvantage compared to other races (less hp, less combat skills or armor choices etc). Then it would make people who played that race stand out more because few people would play it, and if you performed well compared to others who weren't of that race you'd get some bragging rights.