Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Are older CRPGs are designed better than modern ones?

  • Thread starter Deleted Member 16721
  • Start date

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
What do you guys think? Are older CRPGs better designed than modern ones? Are things like lack of level-scaling, handplaced everything, secrets and content some people might not even see in a first/second/third run, strong sense of progression and "figure it out yourself with your brain" gameplay good things to have in an RPG? Where do you draw the line on what modern features are good and which should be more 'old-school'? What's your opinion on old-school vs. new-school CRPG design? Am I dragging on with all these questions? How many questions in one thread starter topic are too many? Leave your thoughts in the comments below.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
maybe you want to define what an RPG is first because you might just be putting things against each other that only marginally have things in common.

hav fun

:hero:

Well my simple definition is anything that has a modicum of stats on a character sheet, and uses some dice rolls for various aspects of the game. And/or also contains a decent amount of RPG elements, enough to qualify it as basically an RPG. But not like, those borderline cases like Assassin's Creed or whatever. I'm talking games you just KNOW are RPGS when you play them. The type that just rattle your RPG bones when you put some hours into them.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
Well my simple definition is anything that has a modicum of stats on a character sheet, and uses some dice rolls for various aspects of the game.

stats and RNG make the RPG

And/or also contains a decent amount of RPG elements, enough to qualify it as basically an RPG. But not like, those borderline cases like Assassin's Creed or whatever. I'm talking games you just KNOW are RPGS when you play them.

I think you're talking about games that are intended to look enough like an RPG to make RPG fans pick it up even if they don't like it too much.

In which case you can't assume the game to be designed all the way to appeal to just what those people like.

If people liked games in the past that were intended to be a recreation of PnP to some extent that doesn't say anything about wether they'll like things that don't even try to do that.

Baldur's Gate =/= Skyrim, they were never intended to fill the same niche, newer games being only intended to make some money off that other niche that is underserved right now. Therefore it's not a case of old vs. new, it's a case of apples vs. oranges.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Skyrim is still an RPG though, but they removed a lot of things from Morrowind which was a true pen and paper CRPG. But it has enough general elements to be an RPG in my book. And my book is what we're going by here since I made the thread. Baldur's Gate is MORE of an RPG with better RPG stuff but Skyrim still has plenty enough to make the cut. But would it be better if it had more elements from Morrowind and even Baldur's Gate? Absolutely. I guess that's why mods exist. Bethesda just wants to make billions of dollars and not piss off their core fans too too much. You can't really blame them, that's their choice as a corporation, but that's another topic. What I think RPGs today need is more of what I outlined in my questions in the topic starter post. That would improve RPGs greatly and these older CRPGs still have a lot to teach devs when they create new RPGs.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
Skyrim is still an RPG though, but they removed a lot of things from Morrowind which was a true pen and paper CRPG. But it has enough general elements to be an RPG in my book.

You've just reaffirmed my point.

Morrowind =/= Skyrim, Skyrim being the newer game but not intended to be Morrowind 2.

The games that are designed like what made games of the past appealing to us are still appealing to us. Kingmaker is fucking great at what it's supposed to be doing and will be way more enjoyable than older games in the same vein once the broken stuff is fixed.

IMO the RPG genre didn't get dumbed down, it wouldn't make sense to try to appeal to people who liked their games as complex as they were by dumbing them down. Instead RPG elements trickled into other genres which led to games like Skyrim, it's basically just masquerading as a game that people used to call RPG's by having dragons, vikings and lore out the ass. The whole idea behind the action RPG genre was that you'd take the things that are "fun" about RPG's, implying that those designers didn't think RPG's are fun to begin with, but if you infuse some other genres with dragons and swords and shit they somehow get funner.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
That's very true. Interesting. I need an 'Interesting' button. I would have used it on that post.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I just miss the old-school approach of stats and character sheets, choices with actual consequences and handplaced everything. Some games like ELEX, Kingmaker, etc., are exceptions, but I love those juicy stat systems that have so much "stuff" it boggles your mind a bit. I like those giant playgrounds of creativity like Morrowind or Arcanum, even if they weren't perfect.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Around the turn of the millennium, there were two RPG revolutions.

You had the BIS/Troika revolution, stressing all the stuff you mention above, but especially one more thing: fucking role playing mechanics. Your build mattered to MUCH more than combat—it affected everything from dialogue to environmental interactions. You had a lot of C&C both in terms of narrative AND gameplay. This was my RPG revolution and I would gladly die on the barricades for it.

But before the vanguard of the role playing revolution could catch its breath, the counterrevolution struck its first blow. The release of Baldur’s Gate was the 18th Brumaire of BioWare. And BioWare wanted to revolutionize the genre in a different direction. Rather than giving you deep role playing mechanics, they paired RTwP D&D combat with a heavy focus on storytelling. Increasingly over the years, their emphasis shifted toward character interactions, especially with companions. But the only real mechanic here was a “loves me/loves me not” meter that gauged your dialogue choices—choices that were almost never dependent on your character build. Over time, BioWare moved further and further in this direction. To the extent you had choice and consequence it was purely based on a binary morality system.

You end up with KOTOR and Jade Empire and finally Mass Effect. Good looking console games driven by increasingly cinematic storytelling and some narrative C&C that mostly related to your companions. By ME2 your super simplistic build gives you a choice of a few special powers in combat. I don’t mean to shit on Old BioWare too much: BG series was good with plenty of old school sensibility (but little of the Troika/BIS Renaissance). KOTOR was worth playing for storyfags. DA:O was a throwback and had a lot going for it—they even made a real effort to build in some Troika style reactivity with different builds having quite different narrative and gameplay consequences. The best neo BioWare game by far, but still inferior to its influences. However, the mass audience loved DA:O for the companion interactions, especially romances, so they doubled down on that stuff again going forward.

The BIS/Troika roleplaying revolution went in a different direction, emphasizing both stat and narrative related reactivity. No matter your build in a BioWare game, you will fight your way through everything. But in, say, VtMB: Bloodlines, different builds from different clans give you a vastly different experience, both in terms of story and gameplay. There is nothing like a Nosferatu or a Malkavian playthrough in a BioWare game.

Don’t even get me started on Arcanum. For all of its flaws, no one even tries to match Arcanum’s levels of choice, insane build variety or reactivity.

And that’s the problem. The BioWare counterrevolution won commercially, so Troika went under and even Obsidian, the heirs of Black Isle, began to embrace more of BioWare’s design philosophy.

As for Bethesda, Sacred82 is right that they haven’t even attempted to make an RPG since Morrowind. Not that latter TES or BGS Fallouts are decent action games, but looking back they were the first ones to realize that an open world with shitty action gameplay and RPG style character progression would sell like crazy. Still, Skyrim or Fallout 4 have more in common with Red Dead Redemption 2 or the newer Far Cry games than CRPGs.

tl;dr the old school “figure it out yourself” attitude predates the late ‘90s CRPG revolution and the best we can hope for here are games that let you disable quest makers because casuals love that shit too much to part with it. But the Troika/BIS specific stuff has been making a comeback, even if few of the Kickstarter throwbacks have managed to execute it well. This is why I will remain hyped for The Outer Worlds, FPS-RPG though it may be. TOW will allow you to role play rather than just LARPing and that’s huge.

If we’re going to have so many action games with RPG elements, they might as well integrate the best of those elements, not just boring character progression systems and lots of dialogue.

Edit: embracing the BIS/Troika revolution is also why Age of Magnificence was so damn good.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,182
Yes and no. In some ways, old RPGs were brilliantly designed, and modern games still have to catch up. But in other ways, old rpgs also had shit design.

To me, the big thing is, are we talking about mainstream modern games? The truth is, it's not their design that's bad, but their aims. Modern mainstream games aim to sell a lot to largely casual audiences, so their design has to revolve around that, which is why it sucks.

Also, it's not that the old RPGs had some secret to great design. What they had was progress and innovation. I wouldn't want to play new versions of old RPGs from 90s or earlier, I want to play games that build on earlier ideas to evolve the genre forward.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Around the turn of the millennium, there were two RPG revolutions.

You had the BIS/Troika revolution, stressing all the stuff you mention above, but especially one more thing: fucking role playing mechanics. Your build mattered to MUCH more than combat—it affected everything from dialogue to environmental interactions. You had a lot of C&C both in terms of narrative AND gameplay. This was my RPG revolution and I would gladly die on the barricades for it.

But before the vanguard of the role playing revolution could catch its breath, the counterrevolution struck its first blow. The release of Baldur’s Gate was the 18th Brumaire of BioWare. And BioWare wanted to revolutionize the genre in a different direction. Rather than giving you deep role playing mechanics, they paired RTwP D&D combat with a heavy focus on storytelling. Increasingly over the years, their emphasis shifted toward character interactions, especially with companions. But the only real mechanic here was a “loves me/loves me not” meter that gauged your dialogue choices—choices that were almost never dependent on your character build. Over time, BioWare moved further and further in this direction. To the extent you had choice and consequence it was purely based on a binary morality system.

You end up with KOTOR and Jade Empire and finally Mass Effect. Good looking console games driven by increasingly cinematic storytelling and some narrative C&C that mostly related to your companions. By ME2 your super simplistic build gives you a choice of a few special powers in combat. I don’t mean to shit on Old BioWare too much: BG series was good with plenty of old school sensibility (but little of the Troika/BIS Renaissance). KOTOR was worth playing for storyfags. DA:O was a throwback and had a lot going for it—they even made a real effort to built in some Troika style reactivity with different builds have quite different narrative and gameplay consequences. The best neo BioWare game by far, but still inferior to its influences. Still, the mass audience loved DA:O for the companion interactions, especially romances, so they doubled down on that stuff again going forward.

The BIS/Troika roleplaying revolution went in a different direction, emphasizing both stat and narrative related reactivity. No matter your build in a BioWare game, you will fight your way through everything. But in, say, VtMB: Bloodlines, different builds from different clans give you a vastly different experience, both in terms of story and gameplay. There is nothing like a Nosferatu or a Malkavian playthrough in a BioWare game.

Don’t even get me started on Arcanum. For all of its flaws, no one even tries to match Arcanum’s levels of choice, insane build variety or reactivity.

And that’s the problem. The BioWare counterrevolution won commercially, so Troika went under and even Obsidian, the heirs of Black Isle, began to embrace more of BioWare’s design philosophy.

As for Bethesda, Sacred82 is right that they haven’t even attempted to make an RPG since Morrowind. Not that latter TES or BGS Fallouts are decent action games, but looking back they were the first ones to realize that an open world with shitty action gameplay and RPG style character progression would sell like crazy. Still, Skyrim or Fallout 4 have more in common with Red Dead Redemption 2 or the newer Far Cry games than CRPGs.

tl;dr the old school “figure it out yourself” attitude predates the late ‘90s CRPG revolution and the best we can hope for here are games that let you disable quest makers because casuals love that shit too much to part with it. But the Troika/BIS specific stuff has been making a comeback, even if few of the Kickstarter throwbacks have managed to execute it well. This is why I will remain hyped for The Outer Worlds, FPS-RPG though it may be. TOW will allow you to role play rather than just LARPing and that’s huge.

If we’re going to have so many action games with RPG elements, they might as well integrate the best of those elements, not just boring character progression systems and lots of dialogue.

If I could rate this post 'Perfect' I would. Jesus. Well said.

I forgot to mention the Troika stuff. The reactivity to character, the roleplaying, the choices matter in GAMEPLAY - that's stuff that's missing, and it's because story-driven, cinematic experiences sell the most. That's also why I'm hyped for The Outer Worlds and think it will be a super gem, because it's got the Troika guys leading the charge. That's also why I said there's still so much RPG devs can learn from the old CRPGs that they just seem to ignore.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
tl;dr the old school “figure it out yourself” attitude predates the late ‘90s CRPG revolution and the best we can hope for here are games that let you disable quest makers because casuals love that shit too much to part with it. But the Troika/BIS specific stuff has been making a comeback, even if few of the Kickstarter throwbacks have managed to execute it well. This is why I will remain hyped for The Outer Worlds, FPS-RPG though it may be. TOW will allow you to role play rather than just LARPing and that’s huge.

If we’re going to have so many action games with RPG elements, they might as well integrate the best of those elements, not just boring character progression systems and lots of dialogue.

Edit: embracing the BIS/Troika revolution is also why Age of Magnificence was so damn good.

IMO it's not about old school vs. new school. If there's anything that defines old school it's that those people came from a PnP background and tried to either translate that to the screen or at least infuse their games with elements of that. Therefore I'd put the beginnings of oldschool somewhere around the release of Pool of Radiance. The things that came before that, like the Wizardry's and Ultima's, maybe even things like Rogue, were fantasy roleplaying inspired games that were more focused on the possibilities of the modern medium than re-enacting PnP roleplaying.

Reactivity is really nothing but an attempt to re-create the possibilities of PnP roleplaying, or at least it's heavily inspired by that. The thing about RPG's is that you're defining a character and then making the world react to it, not just the other way around. Ultra grognard dungeoneering isn't old school, it's simply an old style of design that was possible in the very beginnings of the medium.

This puts actual RPG's between a rock and a hard place. It's not focused on twitchy action combat or even slow tactical combat, it's not about collecting loot, it's not about telling a riveting story, it's not about having lore out the ass and it's not about romancing a Minotaur. All of those things are basically just trappings that people saw on the surface of RPG's that they could take and use in other games to give them some atmosphere, some sense of place and time and some game-y elements that people were familiar with and/ or loved.

To me the point of CRPG's is to recreate the actual roleplaying experience that exists in PnP without the huge arbitrarity of a PnP session and DM. There are way more limits to what you can do, which is a good thing in that no DM has to decide if what you're going to do is physically impossible or within the rules, nor does he have to slap an arbitrary difficulty on your success chance. Also the chance to go back and do the actual same thing again with better chances/ do something different to achieve actually same results/ do something different and get to go down a different path.

That's the point of CRPG's and it's probably never been a hugely popular thing. People may like the genre (or things pretending to be in the genre) for different reasons, but I'd assume this is very low on the priority list, even though it makes the whole dragon slashing/ loot collecting/ redding and Minotaur fucking that much better.
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,226
Location
Bjørgvin
Were CRPGs better before the X-Box, before the influx of Hollywood reject designers and writers instead of nerds with a PnP background, before the "I play games for the story" crowd, before every fucking line in a game had to be voice acted, and before monetization and loot boxes?

Well, since I haven't played a new game for nearly a decade I wouldn't know.
But I feel that I haven't really missed much.
 

nobre

Cipher
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
675
Location
Pays-Bas
Every medium or artform reaches a peak, and from then on it's decline all the way in to the abyss, with some bright spots here and there to give you false hope. Since technology is advancing so rapidly, and mankind deteriorating even faster, every new medium reaches its peak sooner. For video games it was late nineties/ early XXI century, film 1980's, music XVIII or XIX century, painting probably XVI century, sculpture somewhere in Antiquity.

Didn't read OP lol
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

Self-Ejected
Dumbfuck
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
2,957
Location
Free Village
film 1980's

Too bad film never realized its full potential in displaying, in all drastic clarity, the human condition. The consummate retardation, insanity and cowardice of civilization was always hinted at, at best.

music XVIII or XIX century

:what:

If there's one thing that hasn't declined as an art form it's music. Music as a craft or discipline, maybe.

This thread is now about the decline of all things.



Porn has gotten better though :thumbsup:
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,185
What do you guys think? Are older CRPGs better designed than modern ones? Are things like lack of level-scaling, handplaced everything, secrets and content some people might not even see in a first/second/third run, strong sense of progression and "figure it out yourself with your brain" gameplay good things to have in an RPG? Where do you draw the line on what modern features are good and which should be more 'old-school'? What's your opinion on old-school vs. new-school CRPG design? Am I dragging on with all these questions? How many questions in one thread starter topic are too many? Leave your thoughts in the comments below.
No
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,702
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
maybe you want to define what an RPG is first because you might just be putting things against each other that only marginally have things in common.

hav fun

:hero:

Well my simple definition is anything that has a modicum of stats on a character sheet, and uses some dice rolls for various aspects of the game. And/or also contains a decent amount of RPG elements, enough to qualify it as basically an RPG. But not like, those borderline cases like Assassin's Creed or whatever. I'm talking games you just KNOW are RPGS when you play them. The type that just rattle your RPG bones when you put some hours into them.

An RPG is a game that contains RPG elements

Brilliant. Why no-one at the Codex ever thought about it. Guys, Fluent single-handedly solved our biggest philosophical problem, just like that. He must be a genius.
 
Self-Ejected

Safav Hamon

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
2,141
The codex is nolstalgia fag central, so most people are going to tell you yes.

But no. Most RPGs from the 80s-90s were combat simulators with shit balancing. Modern RPGs are better about C&C, quest design, exploration, and worldbuilding.
 

nobre

Cipher
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
675
Location
Pays-Bas
Sacred82

Regarding music, I prefer silence, or even better, the chirping of birds to the overwhelming majority of man-made music. Which is funny, because songbirds are pretty dumb creatures. I'm no expert in music, but I think that in a sane world, we wouldn't even have Wagner, jazz, blues, rock, metal or synth-wave. In this world however, they make perfect sense and can be very enjoyable, well wholesome even. So modern music is 'good for what it is'.



Regarding porn, that shit shouldn't even exist in its current form.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom