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Incline Kingdom Come: Deliverance A Year Later

Sammy

Novice
Joined
Feb 12, 2019
Messages
6
I haven't tried the game yet, but it keeps popping up in my steam suggestion lists, and the few friends I've talked to that have played it, if I ask "would I enjoy it" they give a noncommittal "uh.... maaaybe?" Like is it worth waiting for a steam sale or does the game warrant a full price purchase. It seems derisive no matter where I look for info about it.
 

deama

Prophet
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
4,417
Location
UK
I do like how you can become a terminator at the end, but they should have made it harder to progress past a certain level, was a bit too easy. While we're at it, considering you can 1 hit kill people by the end, I was hoping you could become really fast (movement) by the end too, but at max it didn't turn out that fast sadly.

I kinda like the combat, but it is a bit clunky, it felt like they were making it for the consoles first THEN the PC, cause of the lock-on.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,527
Location
Grand Chien
But that's exactly what I'm saying. There are clear feedback on whether or not your attack connected, blocked, parried, or dodged. If your attack land on an enemy's body, there will be visual and audio cues. If the enemy blocked, it will be shown. If they perfectly blocked followed by a riposte, it will be even more clearer. Hell, it's the clearest when they dodge it, especially because you're unable to follow-up the dodged attack at all and Henry just stop to correct his momentum. And as for whether or not the hits either deflected or strike off armors, the game already given hints and tips that heavily armored enemies wearing plate armors will not even feel the blade of a sword, and it's better to hit them with a blunt weapons like bludgeons and maces. I learned this the hard way, too, when I've got a lot of good hits on a bandit's back, but I didn't pay attention to what armor he's wearing, and when I see his HP's bar it doesn't even move an inch.

OK, let's try again. What I mean when I say whether a hit has landed, is whether the game counts it as a hit for the purposes of determining combo strikes. I found it extremely difficult to pull of combos because I could never figure out how many hits I was on. In 60 hours of game time I probably pulled like a successful combo, on purpose, like 5 times. The game doesn't give you any feedback as to which hits 'count' and which hits didn't 'count'.

Also, tips for combos. The ultimate goal of performing combos is to get that last sequence of attack to hit, it can't be perfectly blocked, riposted, nor avoided. So if your target only regularly blocked your first attacks, don't worry. Keep going on with the attack sequence, and eventually that last hit will connect. The only way to defend against combos are to avoid the first few attacks, or perfect block to interrupt them. That's why the best way to start a combo is to feint an attack, or right after winning a clinch (though the window is too brief from my experience), or as a follow-up to a perfect block. The flaws I found with the combo system, as someone mentioned before, is that more skilled enemies will interrupt your combos all the time, while the less skilled ones will die before a combo is even performed. And also, at least on PS4, it's practically impossible to pull of 4-hits combo because the 3rd sequence almost always interrupted by perfect block. Still, from practicing a lot with Bernard, I can guess he's one of the master fighter in the whole game, and I've managed to pull off a lot of 3-hits combo on him, mostly by feinting, sometimes as a follow up to a perfect block and/or a clinch. Oh. and I actually managed to pull off a 4-hits combo.... after 5 hours of practicing with him :lol:

I've practiced with him a lot, spent a lot of time with him building strength, weapon skill, etc. Could never figure out exactly how to land combos reliably with him. As in, literally the first combo tutorial I ended up just flailing madly against the guy because I just could not get the hits to register properly.


What is a proper stamina system to you? I couldn't care less for 'it should be like real life' argument. It's a bloody video game. Yes, they pitched is as a realistic medieval life simulator, but if we're going to complain how the stamina doesn't work like real life, might as well complain why Henry don't need to piss or shit after eating apples, breads, carrots, and roast, and why even Nourishment not separated into Hunger and Thirst.

Well, for starters, the same rules that apply to me should apply to my enemies. If I get hit, I should lose hitpoints, not stamina. It's strange to me that when I don't defend myself correctly, I lose stamina, but when it happens to the enemy, they lose health.

Secondly, stamina shouldn't be so easy to replenish, 5 seconds to refill my entire stamina bar is just silly.

These two mechanics in concert mean that fights last forever. I mean my fight with Runt went on for like 30 minutes, 30 minutes of me constantly swinging a sword at him and having it deflected, occasionally I'd take a hit which would bounce off my stamina shield, from time to time I'd just get bored and flail wildly on him, sometimes he'd take damage from that (magically, I had no fucking idea what was happening), sometimes I'd empty my stamina shield and actually take some damage.

I'm not asking for hyper-realism, but the game loses all immersion for me when I realise that I can fight effectively, in full plate armor, with a massive 2-hander, forever, with no chance of ever running out of stamina because I can just pause for 5s and get it all back.

You say 'it's a videogame' but the entire purpose of the combat system is to replicate real-life combat.

Eh, tbh I don't actually know what 'janky' really means. I've played Gothic 1&2, some people say those are janky, I don't see it nor feel it at all.

The movement, and the combat in general, feels awkward.



I've read countless guides, watched tons of videos, spent upwards of 60 hours in the game, I still hate the combat, can't figure it out. It's great that you like it, and I still think the game is excellent. I just don't like the combat at all.
 

Black Angel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
2,910
Location
Wonderland
OK, let's try again. What I mean when I say whether a hit has landed, is whether the game counts it as a hit for the purposes of determining combo strikes. I found it extremely difficult to pull of combos because I could never figure out how many hits I was on. In 60 hours of game time I probably pulled like a successful combo, on purpose, like 5 times. The game doesn't give you any feedback as to which hits 'count' and which hits didn't 'count'.
But the game does give you feedback on whether a hit counts or not. You can even repeat practicing combos with Bernard to see it. And like I mentioned, combos can only be defended against by interrupting the first few sequence, either through perfect block/riposte or by avoiding them. If it hits properly, or it's only regularly blocked, then it counts. If an attack is perfect blocked/riposted, it doesn't count. If an attack is dodged, it doesn't count. And I'm pretty sure those are quite clear to you, no? The rest is simply to perform the combo sequence properly, which is to not just mash buttons and to time the sequences right.

I've practiced with him a lot, spent a lot of time with him building strength, weapon skill, etc. Could never figure out exactly how to land combos reliably with him. As in, literally the first combo tutorial I ended up just flailing madly against the guy because I just could not get the hits to register properly.
You should definitely try practicing combos again with Bernard. He doesn't try to perfect block/dodge during this session, only merely regularly block your attacks to show you that you need to carry on with the sequence, but don't just mash buttons repeatedly because he'll warn you that you need to hit him exactly three times. Three times! At least, that's what I discover playing on PS4. I tried just mashing R2 repeatedly for the second sequence, but Bernard just yell at me every damn time. When I try to do the sequence properly, only hitting R2 exactly at the right time to follow-up the first attack, it succeed every time. Sure, it's harder when you practice weapon with Bernard or in real combat against bandits, but that's the point of keep on practicing until you can perform it reliably.

Also, reading what your experience is after 60 hours, I think the problem lies in you not really trusting the game's feedback on whether a hit connects and count as a combo sequence or not. Because of it, you doubt when to continue the sequence or when to switch to defensive mode. I think I'm somewhere near 30 hours now, but I've performed combos more than 10 times during practice with Bernard, and had managed to perform combos against bandits maybe 5-6 times.

Well, for starters, the same rules that apply to me should apply to my enemies. If I get hit, I should lose hitpoints, not stamina. It's strange to me that when I don't defend myself correctly, I lose stamina, but when it happens to the enemy, they lose health.
Oh, the enemies have stamina, alright. Otherwise, why would some perks make your enemy lose 15% more stamina trying to block your attacks? Also, you misunderstood the game's system here. You will sometimes lose stamina, yes, but only when it's against a practice weapon and/or when the attacks are fully blocked by your armor. It does seems strange to me at first how an enemy's health easily drops as you hit them, but then the exact same occurs to me (immediately losing health when hit by an axe/club, even though I was heavily armored). Meanwhile, try to attack a fully armored enemy with a sword, and see for yourself how their purple bar didn't even drop.

Secondly, stamina shouldn't be so easy to replenish, 5 seconds to refill my entire stamina bar is just silly.
How silly it is compared to other Action-RPGs? Also, it would be dumb if the regen rate is any slower than this. It's already hard trying to keep up with multiple enemies, or heck one skilled opponent, and manage your stamina at the same time.

These two mechanics in concert mean that fights last forever. I mean my fight with Runt went on for like 30 minutes, 30 minutes of me constantly swinging a sword at him and having it deflected, occasionally I'd take a hit which would bounce off my stamina shield, from time to time I'd just get bored and flail wildly on him, sometimes he'd take damage from that (magically, I had no fucking idea what was happening), sometimes I'd empty my stamina shield and actually take some damage.
Again, as I mentioned before, not only enemies has stamina but there's also complex armoring system that factor in how a combat can happen. Since you're wielding a sword here, and Runt is heavily armored, it's no surprise it takes time to take chunks of his HP.

And even then, reading the main thread I notice some people 'accidentally' thrust at Runt's head, which is completely unprotected, and instantly killed him. Dunno if it's been patched, but that should give you a hint on how the game mechanics truly is.

I'm not asking for hyper-realism, but the game loses all immersion for me when I realise that I can fight effectively, in full plate armor, with a massive 2-hander, forever, with no chance of ever running out of stamina because I can just pause for 5s and get it all back.
Except that point in the game needs to be earned. You need to either be really good at the game, either through thieving, haggling, or combat, to earn a set of full plate armor and good weapon, and obviously you need to level up Vitality to actually have massive amount of stamina that regenerate very quickly. If anything you should be happy to get to that point at all, because from my experience it is full of struggling and overcoming challenges, which is very fun to me so far.

You say 'it's a videogame' but the entire purpose of the combat system is to replicate real-life combat.
But the real-life combat part is in the gameplay mechanics of combat techniques, like perfect blocks, master strikes, combos, etc etc. Asking for more realism in stamina system will break it. Just to demonstrate, you say that it took you 30 minutes to fight Runt. Now imagine if the stamina regenerate much slower than what it is now. Everybody would just be standing and moving about, waiting to regenerate their stamina. The gameplay challenge and engagement lies in getting around your enemy's defenses and successfully defending against their attack, adding 'waiting around until you have enough stamina' will break that moment-to-moment gameplay flow.

The movement, and the combat in general, feels awkward.
Awkward compared to what other games?

I've read countless guides, watched tons of videos, spent upwards of 60 hours in the game, I still hate the combat, can't figure it out. It's great that you like it, and I still think the game is excellent. I just don't like the combat at all.
Again, I think the problem lies in you mistrusting the game's feedback on whether or not a hit connects and count for combo sequence. Also, misunderstanding the game mechanics, thinking there's some special rules applied to the player in regards of losing stamina instead of health when damaged and how the enemy only has health point.
 

harhar!

Augur
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
225
- Remove or balance Masterparry/Masterstrike.
- Don't force hard 1v1 battles on my speech char in order to actually allow for different playstyles.
 

PsychoFox

Educated
Joined
Mar 27, 2019
Messages
293
Location
(P___q)
I'm very happy to play this game for the first time with Royal Edition. It seems perfectly stable and bugfree.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,847
Make combat and battles more like mount & blade. Lock-on was pretty awful and all the battles were heavily scripted and very unsatisfying - it didn't feel like I was actually capturing a castle, it felt like I was wrestling my way between cutscenes in a linear corridor shooter. More importantly, though, fix the economy. Not only did I become the wealthiest man in town in the span of two days, I also quickly found out there's nothing to really spend it on. The shop's gear was only ever useful in early game, after which all the good equipment was to be lifted from enemy corpses.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Make combat and battles more like mount & blade. Lock-on was pretty awful and all the battles were heavily scripted and very unsatisfying - it didn't feel like I was actually capturing a castle, it felt like I was wrestling my way between cutscenes in a linear corridor shooter. More importantly, though, fix the economy. Not only did I become the wealthiest man in town in the span of two days, I also quickly found out there's nothing to really spend it on. The shop's gear was only ever useful in early game, after which all the good equipment was to be lifted from enemy corpses.

Economic issues are partially caused by how easy it is to get rich by looting dead enemies. A lot of the enemies you fight in the game are far too well equipped for their status.

Bandits, even organised bandits, shouldn't be wearing Milanese plate armour.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
5,847
Economic issues are partially caused by how easy it is to get rich by looting dead enemies. A lot of the enemies you fight in the game are far too well equipped for their status.

Bandits, even organised bandits, shouldn't be wearing Milanese plate armour.
And the shopkeep shouldn't be accepting suspect garbage that still has bloodstains on it. Or armor that's pierced in a dozen places. IMO it should be solved by crafting - if you manage to get your hands on gear in mint condition, you can sell it to shopkeep, as he'll happily resell it at a premium later on, but if you're hauling worn down, battered scrap metal, he is just not interested. You'd need to break it down to crafting components to get any use of it, prefferably ones of varying grades. Steel would be rare as hell, and even iron would have different amounts of purity. Henry's a blacksmith, so complexity in this area would fit things well, I believe. Also, seriously, give the player something to spend his money on. Plate armor was incredibly expensive IRL, so if Henry can afford it, he is either making way too much money (and the game needs a rebalance) or the armor is just too cheap.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,239
What would you like to see done differently in a sequel or what would you have changed in the original game?

Change protag to a knight, a second+ son to a lord, with at least appearance customization.
More story agency.
Third person melee combat; FP&TP exploration, camera switching to TP when you draw your melee weapon if you are in FP mode.
Switch to an engine that could render clothing without clipping or figure out how to do it in Cry Engine.
 

TheImplodingVoice

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
1,958
Location
Embelyon
What would you like to see done differently in a sequel or what would you have changed in the original game?

Change protag to a knight, a second+ son to a lord, with at least appearance customization.
More story agency.
Third person melee combat; FP&TP exploration, camera switching to TP when you draw your melee weapon if you are in FP mode.
Switch to an engine that could render clothing without clipping or figure out how to do it in Cry Engine.
That would be nice as well. Wonder if WH Studios are going to stick with Cry Engine?
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Stop being a munchkin and you won't get too rich too fast. Problem solved.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
I want them to take a good hard look at Mordhau combat and get "inspired". Its KCD combat evolved practically.

Stop being a munchkin and you won't get too rich too fast. Problem solved.

Thats like saying you should pump the brakes unnecessarily in a racing game so you get to have some challenge.

Sure, there should be difficulty settings available for those who primarily want to larp/play unoptimized characters, but there should also be a difficulty setting for those who play to seek challenge.
Dynamic difficulty sliders like in Pathfinder, System Shock or Fallout 2 paired with a soft power curve would be the right way to go for open, nonlinear single character rpgs i believe.
 

Carrion

Arcane
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Lost in Necropolis
I think the game makes the typical open world mistakes when it comes to the main quest and its structure and pacing. The actual quests are mostly excellent apart from the rushed mess that is the endgame, but the path through the game is very straightforward and gives you few opportunities to affect how the story plays out. The cutscenes are well-made and written, but some of them have no place being in an RPG where the player should be able to make the choices instead of his character acting on his own. The side quests are better in this regard, with most of them having multiple possible outcomes depending on your choices, but they too have their own problems, like weird triggers that arbitrarily shut off paths that should be available to the player, the fetchy nature of a few of the quests (Restless Spirit can go fuck itself), quest-breaking bugs (hopefully fixed by now), and occasional frustrating railroading that forces you into a bad outcome no matter what (e.g. A Rock and a Hard Place, Playing with the Devil). I'd still say the quest design is one of the strong points of the game, that side of the game just needed a lot more time and polish.

Mechanically there's a lot to nitpick and complain about, but for me the power curve was the major issue. Being a scrub is more fun than being a god, and it's a bit too easy to get good in almost everything in this game. The Hardcore Mode seems to be a lot better balanced than the normal difficulty level, thanks to things like tougher economy and more ruthless enemy AI.

All in all, KCD is a very ambitious game that sometimes tries to do a bit too much, which to me is much more appealing than playing it safe and delivering polished mediocrity. If they made a sequel, I wouldn't change all that much — they now have experience from making this kind of a game, so with a bit more time, more thorough testing, some fine-tuning and larger resources the sequel could be a damn fine game. Make it a bit less linear structure-wise, give the player more role-playing options, make the quests a bit more flexible, flesh out the mechanics and improve overall balance. Also, think of more uses for alcohol.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Thats like saying you should pump the brakes unnecessarily in a racing game so you get to have some challeng
Except in a racing game yours and competitors' behavior is easily tested, predicted and provided for, and challenge is adjusted, and your path through the track is generally linear.

Nothing could be more different than an open world RPG.

Great comparison.
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,341
> Also, there IS stamina system, wtf?

I didn't make it clear what I meant, that's my mistake. I meant that there is no proper stamina system

You made it pretty damn clear:

No stamina system - swing a 2-handed sword for 15 minutes without a break?

You are just trying to backpedal it now because you don't want to look stupid. Well guess what, you are making an even bigger idiot out of yourself now.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,527
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Grand Chien
> Also, there IS stamina system, wtf?

I didn't make it clear what I meant, that's my mistake. I meant that there is no proper stamina system

You made it pretty damn clear:

No stamina system - swing a 2-handed sword for 15 minutes without a break?

You are just trying to backpedal it now because you don't want to look stupid. Well guess what, you are making an even bigger idiot out of yourself now.
Yawn. That conversation is like a year old or whatever. I really don't care what you think about what I meant.
 

Black Angel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
2,910
Location
Wonderland
> Also, there IS stamina system, wtf?

I didn't make it clear what I meant, that's my mistake. I meant that there is no proper stamina system

You made it pretty damn clear:

No stamina system - swing a 2-handed sword for 15 minutes without a break?

You are just trying to backpedal it now because you don't want to look stupid. Well guess what, you are making an even bigger idiot out of yourself now.
Yawn. That conversation is like a year old or whatever. I really don't care what you think about what I meant.
You mean 5 months ago
 

Edija

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
675
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The Dead City
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Did they do anything about the combat? It felt like hitting a brick wall with your sword for the most part. I really enjoyed the world though.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
Thats like saying you should pump the brakes unnecessarily in a racing game so you get to have some challeng
Except in a racing game yours and competitors' behavior is easily tested, predicted and provided for, and challenge is adjusted, and your path through the track is generally linear.

Nothing could be more different than an open world RPG.

Great comparison.

I wasnt comparing those two genres, i was merely making a point. There are quite a few openworld rpgs that challenge players throughout the game or atleast do avoid becoming a cakewalk so easily. How could they manage such an impossible task?
 

PsychoFox

Educated
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Mar 27, 2019
Messages
293
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(P___q)
I wish the game reacted more to your actions in the world.

I also disliked the console-centric UI and controls.
 

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