Jaesun
Fabulous Ex-Moderator
So, I finally played this... not that great. In particular, I think the entire build-up and introduction to the setting was weak.
How should the Introduction have been done then?
So, I finally played this... not that great. In particular, I think the entire build-up and introduction to the setting was weak.
So, I finally played this... not that great. In particular, I think the entire build-up and introduction to the setting was weak.
How should the Introduction have been done then?
Yeah, I know, but I don't think that explains the limited verbset, since both the character and the player thinks that's who Azriel is.Good news! You are not exactly playing as a bad-ass, trench-coat-wearing, gun-toting, grizzled ex-merc named Azreil Odin.
I think you judged character prematurely. Not to mention, there are multiple characters in Gemini Rue to play. You shouldn't let that stand in your way if you really want to experience why people believe GR is a good game.Yeah, I know, but I don't think that explains the limited verbset, since both the character and the player thinks that's who Azriel is.
I'm no expert on hardboiled detective stories, but I will say that the way in which Azriel backed down when confronted by the doorman was totally unlike my recollection of Spade in The Maltese Falcon (I'm thinking of when Cairo pulls the gun on him and Spade beats him up, or when he repeatedly scorns and humiliates, and ultimately manhandles Wilmer Cook). Here's how Hammett describes Spade: "a hard and shifty fellow, able to take care of himself in any situation, able to get the best of anybody he comes in contact with, whether criminal, innocent by-stander or client." Or look at how Marlowe handles a comparably insouciant young man, Carol Lundgren, in The Big Sleep (go to chapter 17 (as fair warning, Marlowe uses offensive language)). Essential to these hardboiled detectives is their refusal to put up with sass from characters who fit the doorman's profile: physically inferior but outwardly blustering "beta males." The fact that the apartment lobby has a warning that the use of a gun would sound an alarm is basically just an invitation for Azriel to, say, crush the doorman's hands (like Spade does) or offer him the gun and then beat him up (like Marlowe does). In any event, I think we can agree that in the doorman encounter, Azriel proves incapable of "tak[ing] care of himself" (he has to call his buddy to solve the problem), and it is the doorman who "gets the best" of Azriel, not vice versa.tuluse said:I thought Arziel was supposed to be more like Sam Spade. Yeah, he's a badass, but he doesn't go around just shooting everyone.
I certainly judged things prematurely, and I know there are multiple characters to play. I read the Wikipedia summary and watched some Let's Plays, so I have a pretty good idea why people like the game. The ending twist is certainly a clever one, and the execution was quite nice! (In a world where I had infinite time, I would've played through the whole thing, but I have almost no time at all.)Shadenuat said:I think you judged character prematurely. Not to mention, there are multiple characters in Gemini Rue to play. You shouldn't let that stand in your way if you really want to experience why people believe GR is a good game.
I wanted to revisit this because I think Shadenuat's post sort of reopens it.Name said:Good news! You are not exactly playing as a bad-ass, trench-coat-wearing, gun-toting, grizzled ex-merc named Azreil Odin.
I'm the first one to admit that Primordia has its flaws, but I'm not sure Horatio behaving like a human one of them. The lamp/eye issue is a fair criticism, but it's pretty tangential to his character, and his eyes don't illuminate anything when you see him walking in the dark, so maybe they're more like glowsticks than headlights. The fact that he is a robot "who acts human in every way" -- or better, who tries to act human in every way -- is not an inconsistency in his character, it is his character.Shadenuat said:And well, in Gemini Rue you play badass merc who is not a merc and can't shoot every person on sight; and in Primordia you play a robot with glowing eyes who acts human in every way, and has to use lamp to see in darkness. So, fair game
I don't think it's place is very high. It's a nice game, but it's no where near the Lucas Arts games of yore.I'm quite confident that its place in the adventure-game pantheon is very secure, and my voice as a doubter is very quiet.
It's less about is it flawed or not, but the fact that both characters are not what they seem to be on the first sight, and one should give benefit of a doubt to try and understand why they behave in particular way. I never felt about Azriel as strong as you did, for me he just was a grumpy guy in a coat, who was searching for his brother, and it was implied by the game that we're sticking on the right side of the law, so I wasn't running around trying break people's hands.I'm the first one to admit that Primordia has its flaws, but I'm not sure Horatio behaving like a human one of them.
The game is short. VERY short. You could've finished it in the time it took you to write this wall of text.In a world where I had infinite time, I would've played through the whole thing, but I have almost no time at all.
Now I know how the Dragon Pharaoh felt!Seeing criticism that ignores gameplay (or even worse praises it) in favour of one narrative element (which you got wrong anyway) is just... what the hell man? I used to like you.
If you don't think that being a brooding ex-assassin gone-straight named Azriel Odin is a power fantasy you haven't spent enough time with Japanese entertainment products!Also, "power-fantasy that Gemini Rue's character represents". lol.
It took me like half an hour to write! The game is at least four hours long! In any event, why would I forgo doing something I like (bickering about game design) in favor of doing something I wasn't enjoying?!The game is short. VERY short. You could've finished it in the time it took you to write this wall of text.
Maybe I misjudged the character (or am misremembering). I'm not sure that explains why he would let the thugs shoot him to death, though.Infinitron said:I remember pretty early in the game trying to shoot somebody (probably that doorman) and he said something like "I don't do that kind of stuff anymore." That line was enough for me to realize that he wasn't a badass. An effective enough defining moment.
I don't care about your tates. I mean I care enough about them if they can sprout into an interesting discussion. But I don't go around telling people what they're allowed to like, I've said this many times over the years. What I took exception to was your stated reason for not liking the game, because it doesn't make sense, and because it's based on a perception you have of the character that is not even true, and you cling to it despite being told, repeateadly, by people who HAVE played the game, that it is in fact not true.In all seriousness, I'm sorry to have disappointed you. My tastes are idiosyncratic and no doubt often indefensible
No I do understand your criticism, and it's not a gameplay one. "I wanted my point and click adventure game to be a hack and slash kill 'em all shooter because I'm playing a guy named Azriel Odin" is not a valid gameplay criticism. You picked a single, minor point from the narrative, twisted it out of the game's context, decided on what genre the game should belong to, and then dropped the game because it in fact doesn't belong to that genre, as any casual look at the game could've told you. Except of course the game DOES have shooting bits where you get to be "badass ex-assassin Azriel Odin", and in fact they're the shittiest part of the game, and you of course just brush them aside with "why can't I do this all the time?" Because guess what? it's a fucking adventure game, not a shooter. This is what I'm calling you out on, not your tastes.That said, I think you may have somewhat misunderstood my criticism, which isn't a narrative one, but rather a gameplay one.
If you think that the character is there to set up a power fantasy then you haven't played the g- oh right, you in fact haven't.If you don't think that being a brooding ex-assassin gone-straight named Azriel Odin is a power fantasy you haven't spent enough time with Japanese entertainment products!
Maybe he only shoots when he has no other option?Maybe I misjudged the character (or am misremembering). I'm not sure that explains why he would let the thugs shoot him to death, though.
Well, if I'm wrong as a matter of fact, I'm happy to withdraw my criticism, but I'm not persuaded that I am wrong. Let me lay out my understanding of the plot, and you can correct me:What I took exception to was your stated reason for not liking the game, because it doesn't make sense, and because it's based on a perception you have of the character that is not even true, and you cling to it despite being told, repeateadly, by people who HAVE played the game, that it is in fact not true.
No, that's not my criticism. It seems like I've offended you enough for you to want to paint me as a lunatic idiot, so whatever I did, I apologize. In the meanwhile, let me try to explain my criticism again.No I do understand your criticism, and it's not a gameplay one. "I wanted my point and click adventure game to be a hack and slash kill 'em all shooter because I'm playing a guy named Azriel Odin" is not a valid gameplay criticism.
Well, it happens to be all of the game that you can play in the demo?You picked a single, minor point from the narrative, twisted it out of the game's context, decided on what genre the game should belong to, and then dropped the game because it in fact doesn't belong to that genre, as any casual look at the game could've told you.
When did I say I wanted a shooter? I would rather not have action segments (not that I got to any of them). What I wanted was a game where among the adventure-game verbs the character had were "intimidate" and "shoot." The ability to intimidate is integral to a character like Azriel Odin. So, of course, is the ability to shoot. But it shouldn't be in an action sequence. f you give me a character whose defining trait (per the marketing material, the character's introduction, and in fact the game's plot) is that he's a hard-bitten ex-assassin with a gun, then the puzzles you present should respect the possibility of trying to resolve them through those qualities.Except of course the game DOES have shooting bits where you get to be "badass ex-assassin Azriel Odin", and in fact they're the shittiest part of the game, and you of course just brush them aside with "why can't I do this all the time?" Because guess what? it's a fucking adventure game, not a shooter.
The leading Let's Play is 14 parts, the parts averaging about 40 minutes. The second most popular is 8 parts, each about 32 minutes. The third most popular stops midway through the game (not sure how far) after 10 parts, which are 30 minutes each with one 40 minute exception. I guess they could all just be super slow though, or have some kind of filler.more like 2-3h
Under this false identity, D6 served successfully as as assassin for the Boryokudan, including during a war.
Got it. But he really was an assassin, right?
No. Actually, you nailed my problem with your criticism in the following sentence:As best I can understand it, your problem with my criticism is "because the bullet was a blank."
This is exactly how I felt about it: it's such a minor point, that I couldn't wrap my head around the fact it put you off the game. As I said before I liked the game well enough, but found way too many flaws in the gameplay (I've touched on most of them) so that I'd never rate it as an amazing adventure game. TBH, the main reason I was so bewildered was because, at first, I thought "oh boy, I'm not the only one who disliked many elements about the game!" only to be rather surprised that you major (and only?) problem with it was something that seems so minor. Saying it was asinine was not right - I should've just said "nitpicky". Way, way waaaaaaaaaay nitpicky. What threw me off as well were your analogies, which bring up examples that are NOT nitpicking and are therefore not in the same league as what happens in the game.Now, some people may not care about the issue at all (in my example, the plot hole is so gaping as to be disastrous, while you may be perfectly right that the scene I'm harping on is a small and tangential one in Gemini Rue. By all means, then, my criticism may be idiosyncratic (i.e., things I care about that others don't), but it's not "wrong."
We've sorted this out on PM I think, but no, I am not even remotely offended, and I certainly didn't think you were a lunatic idiot. I did think you were being too nitpicky, the kind of nitpicky that drops something with major good things because of a tiny insignificant not-good thing. Clearly it's not insignificant for you though, so there's no point telling you to ignore it and play on anyway. Especially since you've already spoiled the story :pIt seems like I've offended you enough for you to want to paint me as a lunatic idiot, so whatever I did, I apologize.
I never actually played the demo, jumped immediately into the bought game. I wonder if that was part of what put you off - with the full game there are a lot of things to do and many more facets to the character, whereas in the demo you're stuck with this handful of locales and puzzles, and if they don't fit your expectation there's nothing else.Well, it happens to be all of the game that you can play in the demo?
I've been playing adventure games for so long with a puzzle gamer's mentality (as opposed to.... well, an adventure gamer's mentality I guess) and I'm so used to "guess what the developer intended" that I slip into this mode for puzzle-solving too easily. I don't remember the details of the puzzles you mentioned or what I was thinking when I solved them, but maybe it's me who's too lenient with lack of versimilitude, and not you who's being too nitpicky. Something for me to ponder I guess.The problem with the small part of the game that I played was that it presented puzzles where use of "intimidate" or "shoot" were clearly plausible solutions (sometimes the best solutions), but they weren't valid verbs.
10h? good lord. I remember it taking me ~3h because I started it in the afternoon and finished it in that same afternoon (ie before evening). Maybe I play too fast without realizing it...I guess they could all just be super slow though, or have some kind of filler.
Sorry to disappoint, no devastating takedown. In fact I was ready to let this lie after seeing Infinitron's reply to my earlier post, but I couldn't in good conscience let you have the last word thinking that you actually annoyed me or that my respect for you is destroyed (yes I know I said "I used to like you." Typical Codexian hyperbole. I still do). So uh, here's my last word I guess :pAnyway, I'm not going to belabor this any more. I'm sorry if my criticism of the game annoyed you, destroyed your respect for me, etc., etc. I'm happy to read whatever devastating takedown you're going to unleash in reply, but I'll let you have the last word.
Got it. But he really was an assassin, right?
Yeah, but it's never made clear for how long or if he ever really killed that many people. The only thing you're told ingame about Azriel's past is that he and Kane have spent the past months busting up various criminal organizations. Azriel actually has more of a "badass" rep from his work as a cop than his work as an assassin.
I'm happy to try to dig you up a Steam key or WEG download code, if you'd like!And now this whole discussion has made me think I should try Primordia...