Immaturity in JRPGs: Fact or fiction?

[Night Goat]

 

[Sigourn]

As someone who plays a few JRPGs but also gets totally turned off by many of them:

You don't have to be grimdark, you don't have to deal with DEATH and HORROR

That's the thing, though. I'm not interested in using the word "mature" here, but there's no doubt Morrowind is far more serious than something like your average JRPG. And I wouldn't say Morrowind deals with "DEATH and HORROR". Neither does Fallout: New Vegas. Neither does Gothic. Neither do most cRPGs I've played, actually. It just so happens that Japs are apparently unable to make a serious JRPG that doesn't go straight for DEATH, HORROR and (pathetic) PHILOSOPHY. In fact, the edgiest RPG I've played is Japanese, be it Dark Souls or Nocturne. I mean, the four franchises in the "unanimously mature" OP could be summed up to Edg, Edge and Edgy with the exception of Matsuno's titles. That pretty much sums up how awful the JRPG offering is. Blame the genre and the fans of said genre who nominated these games, not me.

I don't know if I would call Final Fantasy IX mature, for instance. But it's a game I have no aversion to, maybe because of nostalgia. The opening section is you playing a naive little kid (Vivi) but it's played completely straight. There's no animu in it, it could work just the same if the game was western and this was a normal 5-year old kid as opposed to a miniature (cute!) black mage. It's when the Japs go full animu that it bothers me. When they read like shit you wouldn't see in western RPGs. And I believe it is very telling that this isn't "JAPAN vs THE USA". It's literally "the entire western world vs Japan". I've played Gothic and it was nothing like a JRPG when it came to the writing. I've played enough ATOM and it was nothing like a JRPG when it came to the writing. I've played The Witcher and it was nothing like a JRPG when it came to the writing. It says something about how the Japanese behave, and it makes sense that many westerners like myself would find it awful.

 

[Frozen]

Does this really need a thread.

Japanese are still a strict society and they consider comics/cartoons/video games content for kids&retards.

 

[Latro]

jrpgs are marketed to teens and weebs (20-40's), there is no need for them to have a really "mature" narrative. wrpgs are more "mature" simply because grognards are more niche and run the gamut in age

 

[Gerrard]

Fuck that
You're going home

 

[laclongquan]

There's some critical problem with OP's idea of mature.

I mean, he think Chrono Cross is only "few thinks it mature"? Dude, in term of philosophical terms, it's second in line behind Planescape Torment, and definitely higher than Baldur's Gate series. It's the first ever deal with Time Space Continuum, expanded greatly from Chronos Trigger's start.

 

[Reinhardt]

"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

 

[Damned Registrations]

Western RPGs tend to have stories resembling a political cartoon. Japanese ones resemble a gag comic. But just because Calvin & Hobbes is about a little kid and his imaginary friend doesn't make it less intelligent than a villain twirling his moustache while stomping on a person labelled 'MERRICUH.

This seems fairly relevant:

 

[Punch]

If it's fact or fiction I don't know (probably FACT though), but I do know that I had to drop a fair amount of JRPGs for being too cringy for my tastes, you know, with incredibly ZANY XD characters and waifus doing fanservice, the kind of thing that makes me look behind my back from time to time even though I live alone.

 

[Sigourn]

There's some critical problem with OP's idea of mature.

Not mine's. People's. JRPG fans. You can't go more unbiased than that.

I mean, he think Chrono Cross is only "few thinks it mature"?

I don't "think". The facts says only a couple of people said "Chrono Cross is a mature game".

Dude, in term of philosophical terms, it's second in line behind Planescape Torment, and definitely higher than Baldur's Gate series. It's the first ever deal with Time Space Continuum, expanded greatly from Chronos Trigger's start.

That doesn't say anything about its maturity. That's the whole problem. Dealing with certain topics doesn't make a game, a film, a show, a book, "mature". How it deals with those topics does. Would you say Rick & Morty is a mature show? Because from what I've seen, it's anything but that.

 

[Sigourn]

If it's fact or fiction I don't know (probably FACT though), but I do know that I had to drop a fair amount of JRPGs for being too cringy for my tastes, you know, with incredibly ZANY XD characters and waifus doing fanservice, the kind of thing that makes me look behind my back from time to time even though I live alone.

This, but replace "a fair amount" with "Disgaea, La Pucelle and Radiata Stories", which are pretty much the only JRPGs I've tested outside of my comfort zone. Perhaps "cringy" is a more appropiate word?

Also, the whole "I lost the fear of childishness" is such a stupid quote I don't know why people keep posting it. I like Tarzan, I like Toy Story, I like The Lion King. That doesn't mean I'm obliged to like everything made for children. Else the people posting those quotes but not spending their free time watching cartoons made for 8 year olds are nothing but hypocrites that don't know the difference between "I will hate it on principle because it is for kids" and "I just don't like it". The latter ground is where I am standing. The issue with said "cringe" JRPGs is that they are anything BUT The Lion King or Toy Story.

Shit like the intro of Disgaea doesn't fly with me. If I had the time I would love to make a Let's Play of some JRPG and post all the stuff I find cringe about it. I insist the cool thing about Final Fantasy IX is that furry characters or not, if you replaced them all with humans the world (magic and technology aside) would see very normal. Characters in Alexandria behave very normally.

I had to quit before the 17th minute mark.



This is playfulness done right (all of Vivi's Alexandria intro).

 

[flyingjohn]

Who cares?
Jrpgs are 90 percent combat oriented and the game play behind that combat is the only thing you should be looking at.If you drop a game because of aesthetics or childish plot you are no different then a redditor dropping deus ex because of aged graphics.

 

[Sigourn]

Who cares?
Jrpgs are 90 percent combat oriented and the game play behind that combat is the only thing you should be looking at.If you drop a game because of aesthetics or childish plot you are no different then a redditor dropping deus ex because of aged graphics.

Graphics =/= artstyle and writing. Though artstyle is problematic, I'm willing to deal with it if the writing backs the game up. Not even in a "it has to be PS:T", at the very least it must no be offensive.

 

[flyingjohn]

Who cares?
Jrpgs are 90 percent combat oriented and the game play behind that combat is the only thing you should be looking at.If you drop a game because of aesthetics or childish plot you are no different then a redditor dropping deus ex because of aged graphics.

Graphics =/= artstyle and writing.

Graphics,artstyle and writing != Gameplay

 

[Sigourn]

Graphics,artstyle and writing != Gameplay

I play games to have fun, and if the artstyle and the writing gets in the way, there's no shame in dropping a game.

 

[ultra loser]

Another person who got memed by spoony and forgot about FF8 even though it's the most mature FF.
inb4 b-but they are 17!
so what

 

[Damned Registrations]

And I believe it is very telling that this isn't "JAPAN vs THE USA". It's literally "the entire western world vs Japan"

Wow, it's almost like the entire western world shares the same judeo-christian background or something while japan does not. You know what else is telling? That it's basically the entire world vs the USA when it comes to attitudes towards sex and violence.

The fact that kwans think a GI Joe looks more realistic and less cringe than Sephiroth is only telling of what sort of fantasy both cultures indulge in. They're both unrealistic bullshit.

 

[Raghar]

Does this really need a thread.

Japanese are still a strict society and they consider comics content for

General public including public notifications.

However. They punished officials who maintained manga part of Japanese wikipedia during theirs work hours.

 

[Sigourn]

Wow, it's almost like the entire western world shares the same judeo-christian background or something while japan does not.

No shit. But judeo-christian background would only explain lack of boobs and ass 24/7, not cringe writing. Or does it?

You know what else is telling? That it's basically the entire world vs the USA when it comes to attitudes towards sex and violence.

And yet games from the western world are all violent and have sex.

The fact that kwans think a GI Joe looks more realistic and less cringe than Sephiroth is only telling of what sort of fantasy both cultures indulge in. They're both unrealistic bullshit.

Not me. I think Sephiroth is better.

 

[laclongquan]

Another person who got memed by spoony and forgot about FF8 even though it's the most mature FF.
inb4 b-but they are 17!
so what

Yeah I forgot.

Final Fantasy 8 is apocalyse-happening-now, with the monster invasion from the Moon destroy the most advanced empire in the world. Without the party doing a time leap to attack the ultimate boss, the damage would expand to the entire world. As it is, the monster wave is contained within that destroyed nation~

 

[Damned Registrations]

Cringe is in the eye of the beholder. Some people cringe at teenagers saving the world, others cringe at stubbly 30something dudebros playing cowboy and indians. The Judeo-christian thing isn't just about the morals, it's about heroic figures and virtues too. The western ideal of a warrior is usually something like a viking going crazy in battle and being aggressive and rude outside of it, like Thor. The eastern ideal is usually something more graceful and humble who don't feel any happiness from winning a fight. And the virtue of working even when you feel defeated is so prevalent in japan the phrase 'hang in there' is about as common as 'hello'. We see it as 'the power of friendship' but I think they see it more as something like 'the power of being encouraged.' So they're not going to cringe when the hero wins a fight because everyone tells him to keep fighting when he was about to give up. And we're not going to cringe when someone loses their shit and fights without any restraint and that makes them win.

 

[Black Angel]

In fact, the edgiest RPG I've played is Japanese, be it Dark Souls

How is Dark Souls edgy?

In fact, fuck it, I want to object the notion that Dark Souls are your typical JRPG. It's more of an Action-RPG with heavier emphasize in action gameplay especially since it's possible to beat the game without progressing your character like most RPGs required you to.

 

[Frozen]

Dark Souls is edgy and RPG if you are under 18 and not so bright.

 

[Sigourn]

In fact, the edgiest RPG I've played is Japanese, be it Dark Souls

How is Dark Souls edgy?

How are western RPGs edgy? That's the point: people throw around the word "edgy" but most of the time it actually means "dark". Dark Souls isn't edgy. Neither are western RPGs. Not even The Witcher could be considered edgy.

In fact, fuck it, I want to object the notion that Dark Souls are your typical JRPG. It's more of an Action-RPG with heavier emphasize in action gameplay especially since it's possible to beat the game without progressing your character like most RPGs required you to.

I don't understand what you tried to say, so for the sake of avoiding multiple posts:

• There are people who claim "Dark Souls isn't a JRPG" because it isn't like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI.
  
• But Dark Souls is still a Japanese RPG. As far as I'm concern, this is all that is needed to call something a JRPG. Else we go into long and pointless arguments about "what is a JRPG?".

There are many action JRPGs. There are few JRPGs that play similarly to Dark Souls, though. And there are certainly very, very few that have such a serious tone as Dark Souls has. This is why I say anime is bad: pretty much anything that is exclusive to anime as a whole is bad:

• Moe.
• Fanservice other than "this female character is hot".
• Japanese "humor".
• Inane dialogue that feels like the Jap's version of Tarantino. Western RPG dialogue tends to be short and to the point, whereas bad JRPG characters have dialogue that tends to go on forever talking about the most stupid shit.
  
• Overly retarded aesthetics.

I won't go into story tropes because tropes aren't a bad thing themselves, and a trope won't stop me from playing the game. But all of the above will. Now, the question is: people actually find the things I mentioned about anything but immature? Worth mentioning is that C. S. Lewis didn't live long enough to play JRPGs and have an opinion on them.

 

[Black Angel]

How are western RPGs edgy? That's the point: people throw around the word "edgy" but most of the time it actually means "dark". Dark Souls isn't edgy. Neither are western RPGs. Not even The Witcher could be considered edgy.

What the fuck are you even talking about? I didn't imply western RPGs edgy or whatever. In fact, I don't see Tigranes and Shadenuat, of whom I assume you're referring to, calling any western RPGs 'edgy'.

I don't understand what you tried to say, so for the sake of avoiding multiple posts:

• There are people who claim "Dark Souls isn't a JRPG" because it isn't like Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI.
  
• But Dark Souls is still a Japanese RPG. As far as I'm concern, this is all that is needed to call something a JRPG. Else we go into long and pointless arguments about "what is a JRPG?".

Well, it's dumb to call an RPG 'JRPG' just because it is made by Japanese. What would you do if a cRPG similar to Fallout and Arcanum came out and turns out it's made by Japanese? Yeah, it will be silly to put it in JRPG section. Yes, yes, it's nigh impossible for a cRPG similar to Fallout and Arcanum to be made by a Japanese, but my point is it's still retarded to categorize anything remotely resembling an RPG like Dark Souls as a JRPG just because it's made by Japanese.

There are many action JRPGs. There are few JRPGs that play similarly to Dark Souls, though. And there are certainly very, very few that have such a serious tone as Dark Souls has. This is why I say anime is bad: pretty much anything that is exclusive to anime as a whole is bad:

• Moe.
• Fanservice other than "this female character is hot".
• Japanese "humor".
• Inane dialogue that feels like the Jap's version of Tarantino. Western RPG dialogue tends to be short and to the point, whereas bad JRPG characters have dialogue that tends to go on forever talking about the most stupid shit.
  
• Overly retarded aesthetics.

I won't go into story tropes because tropes aren't a bad thing themselves, and a trope won't stop me from playing the game. But all of the above will. Now, the question is: people actually find the things I mentioned about anything but immature? Worth mentioning is that C. S. Lewis didn't live long enough to play JRPGs and have an opinion on them.

I don't see how any of this helps you explain why you think Dark Souls is edgy, but okay.

Also, I just read this:

I won't deny that, but I'm emotionally unable to enjoy the traditional anime JRPG. I just can't. I have no problems with there being a cute character like your post shows, but when the overall tone of the game is so playful I just can't enjoy it. This has a lot to do with the cast of characters in many JRPGs. Final Fantasy VII is one big exception since the entire cast minus one cute character is adult. It has its share of funny moments, but overall the plot is very serious, as opposed to "let's go on an adventure, rawr :3".

Like, I downloaded Radiata Stories (PS2) and had to turn the game off after 10 minutes because it was just like that.

Poor you, if you think Radiata Stories's overall tone is playful after only 10 minutes of trying it. And that's also not yet discussing how questionable it is to assume overall tone of an experience based on just the first 10 minutes of it.