Indie RPG pricing

[Infinitron]

If the title is popular. If everyone's playing it - sure. If it's an indie game, the same logic (presented earlier in this thread) should apply - $15 would attract more people and make it easier for other people to join.

Multiplayer games by their very nature exert more peer pressure, therefore they can afford to set their prices higher.

In addition, like it or not, first person shooters CAN set their initial price higher because they have the prestige of being "the defining genre of our time". "This game plays kind of like Call of Duty so I guess I can pay a Call of Duty price for it"

That said, maybe they've done the math and realized they don't need to go lower. Or maybe you're right. Who knows?

 

[Vault Dweller]

We were talking about delivering the game and what it would mean for KS and other developers, not succeeding on KS (which, at this stage, requires no proof).

That is what I meant.

Then what's the issue? Obsidian has talent (probably the best RPG designers in the industry), proven ability, and track record (some of the best RPGs were made by developers who are now at Obsidian). Who else comes close? Who else has the talent and ability?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fair enough. But what is lost by charging more?

People who wouldn't pay more. 475 pre-orders in 3 months isn't a lot, btw.

 

[Infinitron]

Then what's the issue? Obsidian has talent (probably the best RPG designers in the industry), proven ability, and track record (some of the best RPGs were made by developers who are now at Obsidian). Who else comes close? Who else has the talent and ability?

That is completely irrelevant. I'm talking about Obsidian proving that a particular method of game development is viable and therefore worth pursuing. It has nothing to do with RPGs specifically!

 

[7hm]

Fair enough. But what is lost by charging more?

People who wouldn't pay more. 475 pre-orders in 3 months isn't a lot, btw.

I don't disagree its not a lot. Your project has a complicated history that would hurt presales though.

If you were to charge twice as much and call it a collectors edition you probably wouldn't lose more than half the sales, and that's the breaking point for that price point.

You guys know there are farming simulators that are 40$ right?

You set the market. Nobody else sells AoD or underworld. He price is what you want it to be. If you want to lower the price thats on you. Its a mistake.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Mortmal Labelling a thread "Might and Magic clone" might be asking for lawyer fees representing sales plus two or three zeroes at the end. But I may just be paranoid. And I do have many of those forums in my favorites, as well as their forum rules, which tend to have a rather strict definition of spamming (and not much love for price tags). I'm going to eventually though but there's no rush. They're not exactly concerned with how new a release is.

I come accross as complaining about my level of exposure but I'm really not (hard to make it clear when I'm talking about my personal situation or just being theoretical). I can't complain yet because i haven't finished "rolling out" my strategy. I've been focusing a lot of time on support and feedback & just finished uploading an update.

Infinitron Perhaps shooters are worth more to shooter fans than RPGs are worth to RPG fans. This may or may not have something to do with a certain decline though. And rarity of supply (how many new indie RPGs since Grimrock, which was released 6 months ago, as opposed to said shooters?)

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron Perhaps shooters are worth more to shooter fans than RPGs are worth to RPG fans. This may or may not have something to do with a certain decline though. And rarity of supply (how many new indie RPGs since Grimrock, which was released 6 months ago, as opposed to said shooters?)

It seems to me that it much easier for multiplayer shooters to become a "cult phenomenon". And in that case, yes, they do become worth more to their cultish adherents.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That is completely irrelevant. I'm talking about Obsidian proving that a particular method of game development is viable and therefore worth pursuing. It has nothing to do with RPGs specifically!

First, we already know that crowdsourcing works - its ability to raise millions of dollars has never been denied.

Second, it's not a new method of game development as they don't develop games differently. It's a different funding model. It's already worth pursuing for every developer out there because it gives them money without oversight.

 

[eric__s]

Another important thing to consider is why games sell for so much to begin with. There are publishing, distribution, retail, marketing and all sorts of other fees - when it's broken down, developers only get about 10-20% of a game's total price. Developers might see $6-10 for each copy of a $60 game sold. Fortunately, you don't have most of these fees. You can afford to sell the game at a much more attractive price point that will allow you to make the same amount of money and encourage more people to buy it. If you sell for $7 or $8, you'll see about $5 or $6 for each copy and you'll sell in much higher volume.

 

[Infinitron]

That is completely irrelevant. I'm talking about Obsidian proving that a particular method of game development is viable and therefore worth pursuing. It has nothing to do with RPGs specifically!

First, we already know that crowdsourcing works - its ability to raise millions of dollars has never been denied.

Second, it's not a new method of game development as they don't develop games differently. It's a different funding model. It's already worth pursuing for every developer out there because it gives them money without oversight.

It's more complex than that, VD.

Kickstarter IS a new method of making games in the sense that it's never been done in this exact way before. If a game that was funded on Kickstarter becomes associated in the public mind with success, then more developers will pursue that avenue in the future. "Obsidian made a kick-ass game on Kickstarter, and now it's OUR turn!" *sound of lots of people opening their wallets*

You need to learn how to think about the PR/propaganda aspect of things.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You set the market. Nobody else sells AoD or underworld. He price is what you want it to be. If you want to lower the price thats on you. Its a mistake.

Just because nobody else sells it, doesn't mean that [enough] peope want it and pay any price to get it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Kickstarter IS a new method of making games in the sense that it's never been done in this exact way before. If a game that was funded on Kickstarter becomes associated in the public mind with success, then more developers will pursue that avenue in the future. "Obsidian made a kick-ass game on Kickstarter, and now it's OUR turn!" *sound of lots of people opening their wallets*

But it's not what's happening. "InXile and Obsidian have raked in a lot of dough and now it's OUR turn!"

Do you really think that anyone's waiting to see what InXile and Obsidian will make? What matters is not if their games are successful, but the fact that they got 3 mil by showing very little (well, Obsidian did show a lot more than Fargo) and just promising to make something awesome.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Oh I let that hang a bit too long. There's another page now.

felipepepe The facebook likes are real since they come from a facebook ad (unless facebook is a much shadier company than i imagined), but something I found out since is not many people come back, updates in their timeline or not. Just like Twitter, most of what goes in these feeds are lost in the masses. I should have waited until pretty much now to do that, with the game released and patched. Still, it accounts for occasional sales so there is some response. That was just a test though. I don't think i'll advertise again until there's at least a demo / pilot for sovereign.

Infinitron well, it's been discussed before. RPGs are probably have the lowest chance of breaking even with a small fanbase overall, high production costs and low perceived value, even by much of the fanbase. No use complaining about it. But that doesn't mean slashed prices are the right decision... Will be pondering this some more.

 

[felipepepe]

If a game that was funded on Kickstarter becomes associated in the public mind with success, then more developers will pursue that avenue in the future. "Obsidian made a kick-ass game on Kickstarter, and now it's OUR turn!" *sound of lots of people opening their wallets*

I'm not sure about that, we still haven't got many releases, especially the most awaited ones, like Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2... Kickstarter is definetly helping developers, but still hasn't provided much for gamers except for a bit of hope.

Besides, a random nobody on KS saying he will do a game like Obsidian won't achieve anything, you gotta have a name or somehting really good to show.

 

[Infinitron]

But it's not what's happening. "InXile and Obsidian have raked in a lot of dough and now it's OUR turn!"

Do you really think that anyone's waiting to see what InXile and Obsidian will make? What matters is not if their games are successful, but the fact that they got 3 mil by showing very little (well, Obsidian did show a lot more than Fargo) and just promising to make something awesome.

Wait until their games are released. Then we'll see.

 

[Mortmal]

Conclusion #1: people sure like multiplayer shooters and slashers
Conclusion #2: $25 isn't overpriced for a multiplayer shooter or slasher

Fixed.

Well, let's talk about it (your fix). What exactly does it mean? That $25 is fine for a multiplayer shooter but way too expensive for an RPG?

Find me a new rpg video that will gives me the WOW! feeling that chivalry medieval warfare video gives. Medieval , gore, realistic combat, it appeals to my basic instict, i want to behead other dudes on the internet ,i want blood on my hands i really do ! This is AAA level graphics and animations the price tag seems justified.
As mentioned before there's also peer pressure. Why a gentleman with such exquisite rpg tastes like me bought diablo 3 ? Peer pressure.

 

[Charles-cgr]

Another important thing to consider is why games sell for so much to begin with. There are publishing, distribution, retail, marketing and all sorts of other fees - when it's broken down, developers only get about 10-20% of a game's total price. Developers might see $6-10 for each copy of a $60 game sold. Fortunately, you don't have most of these fees. You can afford to sell the game at a much more attractive price point that will allow you to make the same amount of money and encourage more people to buy it. If you sell for $7 or $8, you'll see about $5 or $6 for each copy and you'll sell in much higher volume.

Would people not interested, or just mildly interested in a very specific niche product suddenly go for it if it was half price? Well, yes for some of them. But would they represent a much higher volume? It could be but as 7hm says once you've gone down you can't come back up (except if it was an obscure 1 hour incident ) and my impression is that the answer is no.

"Turn based, no animation, mostly text gameplay? Yuck!"

As opposed to some comments from people really into this kind of game i've read on my forums and other places. I don't think that bridge can be gapped with price. And I don't think the people in between represent much higher volume, but this is what I am most unsure of.

 

[Metro]

Re: prices. I just don't see the negative of lowering them over time (or via promotions/sales)... unless it's a fear that everyone will just wait a year and no one will buy at the release/base price. That aside, if after a year you aren't really seeing much in the way of sales I'd say you've gone as far as your marketing has taken you. The problem isn't reaching people who haven't heard of your game that would gladly pay X for it; it's that the people who have heard of your game simply aren't willing to pay X for it.

 

[7hm]

You set the market. Nobody else sells AoD or underworld. He price is what you want it to be. If you want to lower the price thats on you. Its a mistake.

Just because nobody else sells it, doesn't mean that [enough] peope want it and pay any price to get it.

How do you know if you don't charge the price?

No matter what price you charge, a portion of your customers will think that they got a deal, in the sense that they would have paid more. That is a fact, and true of any product that is sold to more than just a handful of people. Indie games have been racing to the bottom on pricing for so long that they just assume that price is 20$ or 25$ or whatever low number you want to use. Nobody seems willing to try a higher price point.

Contrast that with those wargame simulations. You have wargames that go for 95$ boxed, 85$ download. The reason they can charge this price? Because their product is solid and hits the needs and expectations of their market, and because nobody else makes the same thing as them. Some people make similar things, but nobody makes the same thing. That's the beauty of videogames and other creative endeavours. You are the only producer and you can establish price.

If someone doesn't want to buy the game because the price is too high? That's too bad for them. It is their loss, not your loss. Maybe they'll buy a condensed version in an indie bundle (offering exactly the same product in a bundle is dumb too, but whatever) or you'll have a sale a year after release.

You can't be crazy with the price, but unless you're going to reach that critical mass where the gaming press latches on to your product or you hit the front page of Steam or something you won't do enough volume to make up for dropping the price to half or less of what you could actually charge.

e: Don't ever be afraid to be the most expensive product on the market. Somebody has to be, and it might as well be you.

 

[Metro]

^ Problem is that even classic cRPG aren't that niche. Especially with Kickstarter there are a lot of turn-based, tactical, etc. old school cRPGs that are in the works and will be coming out within the next year or so. Every indie cRPG is not so unique that their only competition is themselves. There is competition. And soon there will be even more.

 

[Overboard]

If someone doesn't want to buy the game because the price is too high? That's too bad for them. It is their loss, not your loss.

Actually, it is your loss.

If you have a product out there that isn't selling, there's no point listening to customers who have already bought the game and are telling you to retain the high price. They're not going to buy it again, and they are the ones who were fine with paying at your starting price point.

You want to increase sales? Listen to the people who haven't bought your game. Then you'll find out why it's not selling. The cheerleading squad isn't helping you, it's just boosting your ego while killing your sales.

 

[Metro]

Precisely. This is all from a marketing/revenue generating perspective not a philosophical debate on the 'value' of people's intellectual property.

 

[commie]

Another important thing to consider is why games sell for so much to begin with. There are publishing, distribution, retail, marketing and all sorts of other fees - when it's broken down, developers only get about 10-20% of a game's total price. Developers might see $6-10 for each copy of a $60 game sold. Fortunately, you don't have most of these fees. You can afford to sell the game at a much more attractive price point that will allow you to make the same amount of money and encourage more people to buy it. If you sell for $7 or $8, you'll see about $5 or $6 for each copy and you'll sell in much higher volume.

Would people not interested, or just mildly interested in a very specific niche product suddenly go for it if it was half price? Well, yes for some of them. But would they represent a much higher volume? It could be but as 7hm says once you've gone down you can't come back up (except if it was an obscure 1 hour incident ) and my impression is that the answer is no.

"Turn based, no animation, mostly text gameplay? Yuck!"

As opposed to some comments from people really into this kind of game i've read on my forums and other places. I don't think that bridge can be gapped with price. And I don't think the people in between represent much higher volume, but this is what I am most unsure of.

I think that you're right up to a point, but don't forget there are countless Multi Headed Cows out there that will lap up anything if it's cheap. These are never going to be your core audience and chances are that 95%+ won't like your game BUT they are the vast majority and selling 5000 copies for a few dollars to them can really add to your coffers. Also, this is a trick you can pull over and over as the 'buy anything cause it's cheap' crowd will always be there and be replenished with new stock.

 

[7hm]

If someone doesn't want to buy the game because the price is too high? That's too bad for them. It is their loss, not your loss.

Actually, it is your loss.

If you have a product out there that isn't selling, there's no point listening to customers who have already bought the game and are telling you to retain the high price. They're not going to buy it again, and they are the ones who were fine with paying at your starting price point.

You want to increase sales? Listen to the people who haven't bought your game. Then you'll find out why it's not selling. The cheerleading squad isn't helping you, it's just boosting your ego while killing your sales.

Bullshit.

You don't ask people who don't own homes how to make your appliances more attractive to them. Or ask students why they aren't buying your luxury sedan.

You don't ask people who play Dragon's Age 2 how to make your 2D turn based blob game more appealing to them.

You have a niche product that needs to be sold to a niche market. Do a better job targeting that market and price it accordingly.

This isn't a philosophical debate. It's marketing 101. Price is the last thing to change to attract customers; the worst thing to change.

(Though I do agree that you've already blown it on the first game if you had customers willing to pay a higher price. This is for new games obviously. I think that in the case of Underworld you could do more in terms of getting it out there, but that's a grind.)

e: There is no price in the world that will sell 5000 copies of Underworld (in a reasonable amount of time). Sorry. Even free won't do it.

 

[Metro]

There is no price in the world that will sell 5000 copies of Underworld (in a reasonable amount of time). Sorry. Even free won't do it.

Not in a vacuum, no. If it were on Steam at $2.50... well... that's around $9,000 (after Valve's cut) he wouldn't otherwise have had. Of course, at that point you might argue it would piss off the 'locked in' fan base who buy at the $20 price on his website but... this is exactly what Jeff Vogel did and it didn't seem to hurt him any.

But again, bringing up Steam isn't very fair of me. It's pretty much the Holy Grail of marketing.