Level scaling should be scaled to equipment level

[mondblut]

I'd like to see it not as level scaling though, more like other people hunting you to retrieve such item

Heh, a nice idea actually. An RPG where everybody is trying to get *you* because you have phat lewt and are worth a lot of xp (and no, you are NOT building a dungeon, so stuff those dungeon keeper references).

 

[mondblut]

If you say level scaling is shit, think about this: would a DM give your level 17 party encounters after encounters of level 2 goblins? Like wise, would your DM give your level 2 party encounters about killing level 22 dragons? Unless with really good reason, nah.

A DM wouldn't run a 2nd level module with a 17th level party, or a 22nd level module with a 2nd level party. Other than for sheer lulz. Rather than replacing goblins with balors, he would simply wind up with another dungeon natively populated with balors.

 

[Achilles]

It shouldn't be possible for someone who's terrible at a game to simply overlevel a difficult encounter.

But doesn't that break the whole "character skill > player skill" thing that we all agree is the RPG way?

 

[Reject_666_6]

Should involve some tactics, though. Spamming magic missiles at a higher level should be discouraged and using some effective tactics to win, even at lower levels than the enemy, encouraged. Some kind of scaling helps with the first problem.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

My point is there should always be challenge no matter where you go. It shouldn't be possible for someone who's terrible at a game to simply overlevel a difficult encounter.

I wish everyone was so courteous as to describe the quality of their future posts in their username.

lvl 2 orcs on this side of the bridge and lvl 40 orcs on the other side of the bridge is bad design, but level scaling is far worse as it flies in the face of increasing stats in an rpg. It's like a drag car designer deciding that making the driver release the parachutes is too complicated, so they'll just be deployed from the start of the race. If you want challenge everywhere, then make a low power rpg, or just rip out the stats and make Grand Theft Carriage IV (and go back to IGN forums where you belong).

You make it sound like the point of a rpg is to reach such a level of strength that there's no challenge anymore. Surely you can get stronger and yet still have challenge (though not in the form of level 90 giant rats)?

But doesn't that break the whole "character skill > player skill" thing that we all agree is the RPG way?

It shouldn't reach the point where there's no thinking on the player's part, because the character is so strong he can just brute force his way through the game.

 

[DraQ]

Level scaling is shit idea in general.

It can be applied successfully in minor amounts as a "grease" of sorts, sometimes, through a total fluke it can be applied in major quantities and not suck (Wiz8), but I don't think such application can be replicated on purpose.

Scaling level to the equipment is no less shitty.

The right way to implement this would be making high-end gear universally hard to get or expensive, and earning more money than player needs to cover expenses difficult. Additionally, low end character with sizeable amount of wealth, should attract all kinds of people who would like and be able to to relieve his cold dead hands of such burden - not necessarily in equal combat.

 

[Tycn]

Equipment as a variable for determining likelihood of NPCs attacking you would work fine. Could be something like mercenaries that will only attack if your level/equipment designates you as a worthwhile but not overpowering target. The obvious problem would be that there are NPCs that do nothing until you reach their target level, but that would be easily mitigated by good world design. Plus it would be pretty cool if you could attract/deter attackers just by changing your gear, robes to masquerade as a defenseless traveler or fancy looking but nonfunctional armour to scare off bandits.

 

[DraQ]

The obvious problem would be that there are NPCs that do nothing until you reach their target level

They could be given something to do. %pcname shouldn't be the only travelling party in entire world.

 

[obediah]

Duh, the point about this topic isn't about THAT level scaling.

I think my idea would fit more sandbox games (and to some degree, Fallout and alike), but not plot-driven games like IE games. It DOES make sense if it's implemented right: think about this, if you're a level 2 warrior with a rusty short sword, and you see a warrior fully clad in dark red plate armor and wielding a huge flaming sword with lightning zapping around, would YOU fight it (not counting save and load)?

1. Equipment is a bad standalone metric. Who would you rather fight? The grizzled man in tattered rags walking with authority while stabbing flies out of the air with his old knives, or a pimply kid in chain mail dragging a bastard sword he can barely lift, let alone swing? Fame, mannerisms, appearance, and equipment all matter - you could build a complex system to turn these into a number for encounters, or just use a level system.

2. It's simple, level scaling is bad RPG design. In your example, what happens when I fight the dude with the flaming sword 5 minutes after starting the game? If I beat him, I skip to the end game opponents? If he beats me, then you're a bad designer because your scaling failed. So to be safe, I can't even encounter the guy until my level is close to his?

For a sandbox game, you could get most of the good without most of the bad with some programming work. Populate the world with a wide variety of power levels, but mix the levels up rather than having lvl 1 city, lvl 5 city, etc... Have much higher level opponents brush off the PC with a warning, and much lower level opponents run away. You could even justify people around the characters level being more aggressive because they see the PC as competition.

You make it sound like the point of a rpg is to reach such a level of strength that there's no challenge anymore. Surely you can get stronger and yet still have challenge (though not in the form of level 90 giant rats)?

My apologies for misrepresenting my point. Sure there should be challenges, but they should be different challenges. Walking the road to the next village should be a challenge at lvl 1 because of wandering bandits, wolves and goblins. Walking that same path at lvl 50 should not be challenging, whether it be because of lvl 50 goblins or lvl 50 dragons (unless dragon invasion is part of your story). The jrpg lvl spike associated with bridges is terrible, but instakilling a lvl 1 PC that ignores warnings about going to dragon mountain, or the isle of the dead, or Dracula's castle, or dinosaur park is good design - just like letting a lvl 50 PC that wants to slum it walk to the next town without a challenging fight is good design.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Level scaling praise on the Codex. Hah. Not surprising after cover systems praise.

No, not all encounters are supposed to be challenging. In a completely linear game maybe, but in a game where I can go pretty much wherever I want if I meet some guys I can't kill then I should be able to kill them after I advance some more.

What's the point of level progression if when I come back they are just as difficult to kill?

 

[Merkwürdigliebe]

Having people try to try to rob or kill you for a valuable item sounds like a pretty good idea. The strength of the player character should be part of the equation as well. As an example if you are very powerful regular bandits might not dare attack you, however if you are severely wounded they might go for it.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Level scaling

DIE.

 

[madbringer]

Level scaling is a tool designed for lazy fucks that do not want to manually polish and balance their games. There is no excuse.

Level scaling

DIE.

 

[obediah]

Having people try to try to rob or kill you for a valuable item sounds like a pretty good idea. The strength of the player character should be part of the equation as well. As an example if you are very powerful regular bandits might not dare attack you, however if you are severely wounded they might go for it.

Those would all be nice additions to any game. Having enemies react to a PCs level or any aspect of there status has a lot of potential, and further show how lazy and evil level scaling is.

 

[Donkey Balls]

What's the point of level progression if when I come back they are just as difficult to kill?

Maybe you should go back to JRPGs where grinding is a large part of the game.

 

[DraQ]

Level scaling

DIE.

That's actually quite succinct and to the point.

Also, I want to fucking see realistic influence of numerical advantage in combat.

It's amazing how many issues would just go away:

-Über 1337 player able to slaughter town guards with impunity necessitating ridiculously overpowered guards? Swarm tactics.

-bandits tring to deprive Über 1337 player of his hard earned phat lewt? Swarm tactics.

-dungeon full of low level enemies? KEKEKEKEKEKEKE!

Of course, morale should be also put into the equation, I don't want to see stupid suicidal wildlife or kamikaze ruffians ever again. Hacking several of their numbers in half with a single swing should give the PC appropriate psychological leverage.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Maybe you should go back to JRPGs where grinding is a large part of the game.

Very clever, Drog!

Arcanum sucks LOLO YOU HAVED NOD ARGUMENTES

There, I outlined your next post. Feel free to expand on it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What's the point of level progression if when I come back they are just as difficult to kill?

My problem with this is that the game progression is inverted. Instead of the game becoming harder as I get accustomed to it, it gets easier (I know more about the game, and my character is stronger), leading to a harsh start, but boring late game. Level scaled enemies are a solution, but a shitty one if it means just fighting level 90 goblins instead of level 5 ones.

It seems the OP was suggesting a scale based on your power, but by making stronger people / factions gradually take notice of you (which makes sense), instead of simply multiplying mob levels / giving them better equipment. Since you're still getting stronger than everyone (which is why people want your shit, after all), there would be no feelings of pointless progression.

 

[Donkey Balls]

@FeelTheRads

You seem to have a sub-par mental capacity, so let me spell this out for you. Level scaling means:

- No grinding. Once you're past the beginning area you should be able to go anywhere, provided your character/party isn't severely gimped.
- No severe difficulty spikes. You won't find an area that is either too easy or too hard (i.e. impossible). The challenge raises consistently.

DA:O has probably the best implementation of level scaling so far.

 

[1eyedking]

After the wonderful experience of getting brutally owned by the local wildlife in Gothic 2, only to return a bit later on, barely kill some of the fuckers before running out of potions and selling their skins for lots of early jewgold how can someone say something that isn't along the lines of what these two gentlemen said:

Level scaling is a tool designed for lazy fucks that do not want to manually polish and balance their games. There is no excuse.

Level scaling

DIE.

 

[FeelTheRads]

My problem with this is that the game progression is inverted. Instead of the game becoming harder as I get accustomed to it, it gets easier (I know more about the game, and my character is stronger), leading to a harsh start, but boring late game. Level scaled enemies are a solution, but a shitty one if it means just fighting level 90 goblins instead of level 5 ones.

????

How are enemies of different difficulties not good enough? Can't beat some? Come back later. Even have very powerful enemies that you can't touch until late in the game.

I don't know what games are you people talking about, but it seems like you're talking about straight line games where you're forced to kill level 1 rats at level 50 in order to go on.

And again, there is nothing wrong with having an easy time with enemies that posed you problems earlier.

No grinding. Once you're past the beginning area you should be able to go anywhere, provided your character/party isn't severely gimped.

In other words, no point in fighting other than to reach the next area?
Mkay, maybe you should be playing shooters instead LOLOLO I"M SO CLEVAR.

No severe difficulty spikes. You won't find an area that is either too easy or too hard (i.e. impossible). The challenge raises consistently.

You mean the challenge stays the same. Kind of what "not too easy, not too hard" means, you know.

 

[Donkey Balls]

In other words, no point in fighting other than to reach the next area?

You get new spells, abilities, loot, etc. What's there you don't understand? Combat should be about TACTICS, not overleveling.

You mean the challenge stays the same. Kind of what "not too easy, not too hard" means, you know.

The later areas are always going to have more elite mobs.

 

[DraQ]

What's the point of level progression if when I come back they are just as difficult to kill?

My problem with this is that the game progression is inverted. Instead of the game becoming harder as I get accustomed to it, it gets easier (I know more about the game, and my character is stronger), leading to a harsh start, but boring late game. Level scaled enemies are a solution, but a shitty one if it means just fighting level 90 goblins instead of level 5 ones.

It seems the OP was suggesting a scale based on your power, but by making stronger people / factions gradually take notice of you (which makes sense), instead of simply multiplying mob levels / giving them better equipment. Since you're still getting stronger than everyone (which is why people want your shit, after all), there would be no feelings of pointless progression.

I'm always in favour of training wheels approach - let there be locations, quests and other activities that are much more demanding than the others. Let the player have means to discern the danger level (in other words, don't surprise rape the player for lack of meta-knowledge). As player progresses, he becomes qualified to attempt the more difficult and exciting stuff.

@FeelTheRads

You seem to have a sub-par mental capacity, so let me spell this out for you. Level scaling means:

- No grinding. Once you're past the beginning area you should be able to go anywhere, provided your character/party isn't severely gimped.
- No severe difficulty spikes. You won't find an area that is either too easy or too hard (i.e. impossible). The challenge raises consistently.

No, you do.

If you don't want player character to progress in terms of power, you eliminate skill/stat/level progression, you don't try to nullify it with counterintuitive and illogical, inherently broken mechanics.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

How are enemies of different difficulties not good enough? Can't beat some? Come back later. Even have very powerful enemies that you can't touch until late in the game.

Usually not enough to be able to face the double rape of skilled player + powerful character. FO2, for example, throws Enclave troopers against you during late game, but I was so used to the game, and my character was so powerful already, I wasn't even paying attention while killing them left and right.

For the record, I'm not complaining about a harsh start, it's good to not be able to fight everything the first time. The problem comes later, when I reach a point where the game just can't keep up anymore. Some people here feel it's a sign of progress, I feel it's a sign of zzzzzz

 

[Turok]

Funny, this make no sense, lets say i put my thor hammer and all my other caracters are in rags, i enter a area and pff dead :D, next time i will enter with rags and all monters will be low lvl, bad idea...

Level scaling have to be maded with something permanent on the caracter as reference point. A hybrid level scaling system sounds pretty good if you check everything with something that get better when you play and those are the stats of the character.