Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire + DLC Thread - now with turn-based combat!

[Prime Junta]

Bragging? Valid Strategy? What the fuck are you talking about. I am asking if this is a known bug. With all due respect it takes considerable effort to misinterpret my post this way. The mobs not chasing the last surviving member is a huge design flaw in AI. Key words were "broken tactic" and "is this intended?". Not "I am so good".

It’s that way by design. If it wasn’t you’d be complaining about how easy it is to kite. And yes the AI is exploitable, news at 11.

 

[Lacrymas]

I dreamt today that after a bajillion patches PoE2 is finally a good game with a great interface and interesting maps. I played a Druid, which wasn't the abomination that it is in PoE, and the first quest was me and a companion against 2 other opponents who we barely managed to defeat. I also met Sawyer and gave him tips on how to make it even better.

 

[hivemind]

i literally dreamt about my death godlike(human) pistol firing animation for two nights in a row TBH

I think it was like shooting against a drake but I am not sure

 

[hivemind]

why does the "priest" class exist btw?

 

[Lacrymas]

I can ask the same thing about the Barbarian, Ranger, Druid and Monk. But we've been over this. Also, now that the Blood Mage exists, is there a reason to play any other type of Wizard?

 

[FreeKaner]

I can ask the same thing about the Barbarian, Ranger, Druid and Monk. But we've been over this. Also, now that the Blood Mage exists, is there a reason to play any other type of Wizard?

Barbarian, Druid and Monk all have different playstyles. Ranger is badly executed like priest rather than not having a purpose.

Yes, since empower is so good and there are unique items that boost it there is still reason to play other types of Wizard just because of Empower. Although I do not like how they streamlined Wizard subclasses other than blood mage to just be bonus to 1 and malus 2 type of ordeal.

Sawyer loves his streamlining, like the autist LoL player he is.

 

[Lacrymas]

Let me drag up this talking point again -

PoE1 would probably have been a lot more beginner-friendly and turned people off less if they'd just had three classes- say, Fighter, Rogue, Mage- and had all the other classes be subclasses of those. The less options people have at a time, the less chance they'll feel overwhelmed and just click through everything.

If this isn't some jab at how DA:O did things and it being dumbed down, it's probably too few. The idea is not to cut down on classes in general, but to cut down on those that aren't developed well and don't have enough mechanics to support a whole class or just aren't implemented well, making room to make the other classes better. Things like Barbarian, Monk, Druid, Ranger are all meandering and meatless, Druid is in an especially tough rut, it's essentially a nature Wizard, but Wizards are better and more versatile at everything. I think they shot themselves in the foot by making so many classes from the beginning, but it's more than that, it's how the system works in general, it doesn't support the variety that so many classes offer, making a lot of abilities useless in the process. There also aren't enough feats, like I said before, most builds end up picking the same stuff because there are not enough viable/valid choices.

I did a full playthrough on PotD with a Barbarian/Fighter main character, and I didn't find any point to the Barbarian abilities. They all had a marginal impact. The only reason I picked Barbarian as one of the classes was the higher health pool.

The Barbarian passive abilities are insane for pretty much any character.

The problem is not whether they are good or not, the problem is they are not enough to base an entire class on. The passives could've easily been given to a Fighter subclass, remove that regen ability, add Carnage. If I had a say in the class design, I'd remove Barbarians, Monks, Druids and Rangers, all superfluous and unnecessary classes in the way they are implemented. Give the spiritshift form as a spell to Wizards (polymorph self), Monk and Barbarian could've easily been Fighter subclasses and Ranger a Rogue subclass. Focus on the classes that are left and make them more diverse. I'd also place restrictions on armor and weapon use. "But my choices" I hear you say, well that's where the multiclasses come in while making the classes themselves more diverse. PoE's system plays like a classless one due to all the homogeneity. The only unique classes are Ciphers and Chanters, everything else is a reskin of everything else.

The builds which are interesting are suspiciously few and far between for a system with so many alleged options. In PoE1, there are 4 I can name - Barbarian focused on dying and triggering on-knockout abilities; Skaen Priest; Rogue focused on casting from scrolls; and dual Ciphers which trade their buffs on each other. If you browse the build sticky on the Obsidian forums, you'll notice a lot of builds using same items and same kind of feats and talents. In PoE2, there are even fewer interesting ones due to the removal of many unique abilities on items and subclass abilities (like Skaen sneak attack, which I'm still not over *twitch*). There are still a lot of clearly superior options that get used in builds constantly. This also contributes to classes feeling samey and playing the same.

 

[FreeKaner]

Regarding Skaen. You can multiclass Skaen into rogue for that. I guess they didn't give Skaen sneak attack because it would make rogue multiclass pointless?

If you just collapsed barbarian into fighter, ranger into rogue and druid into wizard and monk into fighter as subclasses it is not just their base talents but also their abilities you have to add into other classes. They have bunch of actives and passives that would instead lose focus and be directionless. It is not just carnage, shapeshift and animal companion which can be collapsed as subclasses (although with what success one wonders, look at the familiar of the wizard) but at least 20+ abilities as well. After that you then need to account for these new abilities together and in tandem with already existing class abilities and base talents and how they synergise. Besides that it is not just mechanics, they represent different archetypes. "A nature wizard" doesn't mean anything, you can even say a druid is rather "a nature priest" due focus on heals and buffs. Which do you collapse it to?

Also why not just disappear rogue instead? You know that archetype is also fairly vague. Why not collapse rogue into fighter? It is just a dirty fighter no? In fact at that point you can just collapse everything into martial and magic then work off from there as subclass but then we are back to square one.

I don't see a problem with extra classes, except perhaps barbarian and that archetype was always dumb. However there is just no reason to collapse ranger, druid or monk because they have way too many distinct abilities beyond their base talents. If you gate their abilities behind subclass then why not just have them as a separate class?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

except perhaps barbarian and that archetype was always dumb.

 

[Lacrymas]

By nature Wizard, I meant their spells in PoE are similar. Even though, yeah, druids in general are nature priests. My idea is that I don't think these 4 classes have different enough abilities (in terms of mechanics) to the classes I propose merging them with. Some very signature abilities could be given to the other classes, like Heart of Fury or the storms. Other than that, I think they are either meandering or their implementation is bad. I would very much love a very well done Druid, since that is one of my go-to classes after the Priest/Cleric in RPGs, but they are very disappointing the way they are developed in PoE. Priest also got the short end of the stick in PoE2.

Skaen and all the other Priest subclasses had the possibility to be like mini-triple-classes. You have to multiclass to get the same results in PoE2, while Skaen Priest was enough of a Rogue/Priest multiclass in PoE1. They removed signature abilities that were actually unique and interesting and I'm salty.

 

[FreeKaner]

I think druids have a lot of different and interesting things going for them in PoE2. They have summons, they have overtime heals, the "entropy" keyword spells are all very interesting. I don't think they are that much more focused than wizards honestly. Wizards do get wider variety of spells but a lot of them overlap in purpose and mostly are utility or damage. While druids get summons, heals, debuffs, aoe damage, single target nuke, spiritshift (fury one is especially interesting) etc. and mechanically do feel more like nature priests than nature wizards.

The point is still, they have distinct enough abilities beyond just their base ones to warrant different class (except barbarian) that I don't see what could collapsing them into other classes could bring except confusion and lose of focus. Barbarian sure yeah collapse it to a fighter subclass, gets carnage and frenzy but cannot use defensive abilities or something.

 

[Lacrymas]

Wizards also have summons, debuffs, aoe damage, single target nukes and what have you. Spiritshift is polymorph-self. The healing abilities could've been renamed and given to the Priest. Spreading their more interesting abilities across classes could've opened more varied builds for the other classes. As it stands now, I think almost all the classes are spread too thin and have too many abilities that are pointless or nobody will ever pick up. The skill trees have the same problem they did in PoE, it's hard to choose which one sucks the least at one point. Imagine Rogue having both the ranged abilities of Ranger and the abilities they have now, you can't pick everything since you have limited points, but it opens up more possibilities for builds, including multiclass options.

 

[FreeKaner]

Wizards also have summons, debuffs, aoe damage, single target nukes and what have you. Spiritshift is polymorph-self. The healing abilities could've been renamed and given to the Priest. Spreading their more interesting abilities across classes could've opened more varied builds for the other classes. As it stands now, I think almost all the classes are spread too thin and have too many abilities that are pointless or nobody will ever pick up. The skill trees have the same problem they did in PoE, it's hard to choose which one sucks the least at one point. Imagine Rogue having both the ranged abilities of Ranger and the abilities they have now, you can't pick everything since you have limited points, but it opens up more possibilities for builds.

I feel the opposite for druid. It is one of the classes that I feel like I don't have enough skill points to choose enough of their actives and passives. They just have so many good stuff. There are at least 3 in every power level that you can barely afford to pick their passives.

Yeah "technically" wizards could be everything, they could have polymorph-self and have nature magic and be druids, they could also conjure weapons and armours and be a fighter, they could create smoke and mirrors and be a rogue and repeat for all classes which goes back again to just splitting the classes to "martial" and "magic". However for better or worse wizards in the game and gameworld represent more academics and their gameplay revolves around usage of grimoires. While druids do not use those and are instead able to spiritshift a will while also having heals, as well as a lot more types of summons, resurrection etc. and the like which wizard does not. They do play different too in reality, because they are naturally more hybrid. There is value to archetypes in a RPG which is the whole point of classes even existing in the first place, although I do prefer classless systems.

Also why does rogue exist? A fighter could just be a rogue. What is a "rogue" anyway? Just give fighter subclass for sneak attack, since things like lockpicking and pickpocketing are already separate from class there is no point to a rogue. The trinity of "warrior-rogue-mage" is really dumb, it should really just be duality of martial and magic.

 

[hivemind]

also chanters are op lmao

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm only talking in the context of how these classes are implemented in PoE2 in particular, not in general. Druids might have good stuff in terms of mechanics, but Wizards have the exact same thing, sometimes even better. Sunbeam -> Chill Fog, Rotskulls -> Minor Blights, Nature's Mark -> Miasma of Dull-Mindedness, Insect Swarm -> Expose Vulnerabilities, etc. etc. The abilities are just renamed or given only the vaguest of differences. The most interesting of the Druid spells which Wizards don't have an analogue to could be given to the Wizard in some other form. Same goes for the other classes. The mechanics aren't different enough to warrant another class entirely, that's the problem.

 

[FreeKaner]

I'm only talking in the context of how these classes are implemented in PoE2 in particular, not in general. Druids might have good stuff in terms of mechanics, but Wizards have the exact same thing, sometimes even better. Sunbeam -> Chill Fog, Rotskulls -> Minor Blights, Nature's Mark -> Miasma of Dull-Mindedness, Insect Swarm -> Expose Vulnerabilities, etc. etc. The abilities are just renamed or given only the vaguest of differences. The most interesting of the Druid spells which Wizards don't have an analogue to could be given to the Wizard in some other form. Same goes for the other classes. The mechanics aren't different enough to warrant another class entirely, that's the problem.

They are different in archetype, which is entire point of classes. If you do not have archetypes then you don't have classes because there is absolutely no point to classes then and classless system would be better. They also play differently really, not any more similar than say any two martial classes, probably less again.

 

[Lacrymas]

What do you mean by archetype?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

archetype

Whacker, tracker, magic cracker, sleepy slacker, alcohol snacker, et cetera.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, I know the definition, but I'm not entirely sure what he means in this specific context.

 

[FreeKaner]

Such as a druid being a druid, and all the baggage and themes that archetype caries that simply cannot be explained away as "nature wizard" or even "nature priest" (even though this latter is more truthful, it is not entirely still).

 

[Lacrymas]

Ah, you mean the flavor. Well, that's the thing, though, isn't it? Why is there a need to have all archetypes when they aren't very well differentiated? I'd think the advantage of classes is them having different mechanics, not just the same mechanics but with a different name and visual. Chanters and Ciphers are a good example, they are unique in this system, even if a bit outside of the established rules. I don't think they are much fun to play as a main character personally, but that's my problem. If they had given more restrictions to the classes, maybe I'll find it more justifiable, but given the actual situation, I think these 4 classes are superfluous and are only disappointments when you want to play the promised archetype. I'd have preferred the other classes be more fleshed out than trying to violently cram as many classes as possible. And given the existence of subclasses, Druid could've been easily a subclass of Wizard that can only use the "nature" or similar keywords and are given polymorph-self at the beginning. Not because they fit more with Wizards in general, but because they fit in with the mechanics of the Wizard in this game in particular.

 

[Delterius]

woodshitters can't read, therefore not wizard

 

[hivemind]

wizards being mechanically better is a balance mechanism to make up for them being fucking nerd losers who have to carry fucking BOOKS to the battlefield

just lol

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Out of all the retarded complaints Lacrymas conjured in both PoE threads, complaining about lack of options in a game with 50 fuckzillion class combinations takes the cake.

 

[hivemind]

not to defend him(because I do not like him)

but it can be a reasonable argument if the balance is so out of the window that there are clear cut choices that are simply /better/ than the alternatives