Warhammer 40K: Armaggedon - Turn-based strategy from Slitherine

[Destroid]

3. The reinforcing system being retarded. With no wounded/killed distinction on your squads, you can no longer rest any unit back to better strength once it gets hit. The only way to get it back to full shape is by buying replacements, and this is a bad idea because it strains your budget AND cuts a unit's XP.

Wat?! Thats the only good thing about this game. You cant just fucking stack your advantages and exploit it to hell... Replacements costing money is a bad idea? What the fuck are you on? Also, the XP loss due to unit loss is also great. Cant get yourself some uber units if you are dumb. And its all well that way. In Panzer Corps you wasted money if you overstacked experienced tanks since they did cost extra and you would grind them down to regular 10 in the mission anyway...

at the end of each mission your units get automatically reinforced like that anyway, costing you both a lot of requisition (afaik you always pay full unit cost no matter how much you reinforce) and a lot of unit xp.

Holy shit, I smell bullshit, I played 3 missions and deinstalled it now so I am not 100 percent sure but replacements are free as in beer after the mission. Just like Panzer Corps. It makes sense not to reinforce losses mid-mission to save money.

But I agree with the rest...

I really didnt like figuring out just how much damage my units do, due to 3 fucking different weapons on a unit, with different number of attacks and different damage... Christ, I swear, I could not estimate how well my unit would do. I had to move it into attack range with 3/2/1 hexes and check...

It would be helpful if they actually followed the rules of the setting and made small arms totally useless against tanks and heavy AT weapons like lascannons near useless against infantry (unless they are terminators/mega armour nobz). What do the numbers mean that pop up when you hover over a target, expected casualties?

EDIT: Also sight range being less than movement range makes scouting really awkward.

 

[noplsai]

I think the numbers mean the most probable amount of damage done, not in units but those unit points, where infantry has 1 per dude and tanks have 3. Panzer Corps had a detailed combat breakdown on ctrl-click, this one doesnt... As much as PC was a "cash grab" on the work of that one "modder" dude, WHA is just fucking sad.
Dont see how sight range has something to do with movement range...

-edit-

And the Bulls lead by 5 at half time.

 

[Absalom]

Yeah been trying it out and, mehhhh. I mean, I like how in the first act you're overwhelmed and trying to survive against the massive machete rape gangs that are chasing you but its the same as Final Liberation. Cheese artillery or die. Even the tanks are similarly useless unless you want to larp or smth. Though the finest pieces of cheddar from FL, the Magnificent Deathstrikes, are nowhere to be seen yet...

 

[Galdred]

Actually, artillery was horribly underpowered during beta: the rof of alll arties was 1.
then they raised it to stratospheric numbers to allow artillery to take down infantry(inf in cover was really hard to kill in beta2), but it seems that made artillery too good against everything (they nerfed infantry cover at the same time).
You could go through Final Liberation without abusing desthstrikes! Titans were quite cheesy too. Mostly because they did not take much troop slots (1 titan or 20 inf or 3 Leman Russ?).
Armageddon has the same problem, but it is made worse by retaliations.
I find upgunned Shadow swords and titans cheesier than artillery there(the AI won t attack them much for fear of retaliations).
I think you get deathstrikes in act 2 or 3(it was early act 2 in beta). They are somewhat worse than in Flib because they arw not one shot anymore (but they are not as potent).
I haven t tries them in release so it may have changed.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Yeah, you get the deathstrike at the start of act 2.

And yeah, the artillery is p. potent atm.

And yeah2, the titans and supertanks are cheese inc I'm now at the first mission of act 3 (invasion from the sea and wyrdboyz) that swarms you with metric fucktons of boyz of various types. One shadowsword + one toitin are keeping ALL of them in place and stop them from swarming me, so I can just shoot them out like fish in a barrel

This game is mildly amusing once you get spehs muhrines (i.e. infantry that is actually useful) and get used to the retarded design decisions.

 

[Infinitron]

RPS review: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/12/05/wot-i-think-warhammer-40000-armageddon/

Despite the hundreds of unit types and meaty campaign, Armageddon feels like a snack rather than a feast, but it’s a tasty snack. It’s also a wargame that almost anyone will be able to pick up and play, with a decent set of tutorial missions and a theme that might carry an appeal for those that aren’t excited by intricate military history doesn’t. There are modding tools as well, but I haven’t been able to get my (bobbins) custom map working. File name changes are needed, apparently, but an easier method may be incoming.

It’s an accessible wargame and a good place to start for those familiar with the fiction and looking to make the jump to hex-based warfare. Given its Panzer Corps roots, I’m finding it difficult not to dream of other properties taking up the 40K gauntlet. Close Combat: Space Wolves could be tasty. Armageddon is a fine use of the property and brought back memories of those codices and the mad beauty of the Hazardous Enviroments PDF linked on this page.

Given this example, if the grim future of Warhammer were only (or mostly) wargames, I’d be rather pleased.

 

[Destroid]

Honestly I don't find the game particularly evocative of 40k.

 

[thesheeep]

Does this game allow you to play anything else than space nazis?

I do like the setting, but those guys bore me to death.

 

[Destroid]

Does this game allow you to play anything else than space nazis?

I do like the setting, but those guys bore me to death.

You play Eldar in Rites of War, I can't imagine it being much worse than this game.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Rites of War is MAGNIFICENT

(also dude still has a warlock vs nids? lol what a noob)

 

[Darth Roxor]

Well, finished it.

Steam says 27 hours, I guess it was okay-ish although around the middle of the game it just turns into roadblocking everything with invincible toitinz and shadowswords and mindlessly clearing out maps.

It also feels very rushed and rather barebones, and definitely overpriced as hell at its current price (37 ebro). I wouldn't give more than 20 for it, and even that is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-12-08-warhammer-40-000-armageddon-review

At the core of Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon there is a very good strategy game, unfortunately too much of it is either obscured, poorly explained or needs attention before it can be given a recommendation. For example the game awards success with Glory points, which in previous games was the currency for requisition but in Armageddon seems to have no worth, even as a score. Likewise there's no explanation of what benefit experience bestows upon a unit - you just have to assume that their continued survival makes your units more effective in some utterly non-specific way.

Aside from a rethink of some of the unit stats, the game needs a significant overhaul in terms of presentation, from - as previously mentioned - the way unit information is organised, to basic UI elements such as more prominent indicators to highlight unit morale and show which units have yet to move and fire. To help further differentiate each side's units, especially in multiplayer, perhaps some extra colour options to help them stand out against the muddy backgrounds.

Thankfully the issues with Armageddon are eminently fixable and since Slitherine has stated that the game will expand in a similar vein to Panzer Corps, with the addition of new campaigns, units and races to be released as DLC over the next couple of years, it's not beyond the bounds of reason to expect core feature to evolve too. For now though, unless you're desperately aching to play a new turn-based 40k wargame - which is entirely understandable given how long it's been since the last one - we'd advise waiting on the outcome of one or two necessary patches before joining the fray.

6 / 10

 

[Dr Skeleton]

Well, finished it.

Steam says 27 hours, I guess it was okay-ish although around the middle of the game it just turns into roadblocking everything with invincible toitinz and shadowswords and mindlessly clearing out maps.

It also feels very rushed and rather barebones, and definitely overpriced as hell at its current price (37 ebro). I wouldn't give more than 20 for it, and even that is a bit of a stretch.

Yeah, very similar experience here. It's not bad, just feels half-assed for what could have been with a little more effort. They're making some balance changes and moving titans later in the campaign, but it has a long way to go. Going by the changelog so far, Infantry still sucks, spamming superheavies still works. They should add some sort of cap on different unit types or something.

Mods will (hopefully) fix it, I've already seen people adding Tau and Dark Eldar.

 

[Galdred]

The later acts do not work too well with their system indeed (I played mostly act 1 during the beta). The problem is that it would be very hard to fix them without overhauling the system :
Titans are invulnerable because of the retaliation mechanism. There is no good way around it : A singular unit won't have its efficiency drop as much as a low power unit with higher strength count :
You may have a lot of Tactical Space Marines for the price of a single titan, but the titan will retaliate pretty hard every time it is fired on, while only a single squad of marines will, and with a quickly decreased efficiency. I think it is the core flaw of the game (trying to stay close to the Panzer Corps formula, while shooting for a completely different scale and scope).
The various unit strength makes balancing even worse (a 50 Tactical Space Marine unit would be much much stronger than 5*10 TSM units because it would retaliate at then 47(assuming an attack kills 10/3 of them), then 43, then 40, while the TSM would retaliate at 7, then 3 then not at all.
On top of that, you add a lack of consistency of unit strength (Leman Russ have 5 tanks / squadron, Predators 7, Land Raiders 4. Why? It's not like it is balanced anyway, as no one sticks with LR beyond act 1. Don't even get me started on infantry squads).
Another agravating factor is the way infantry is represented (1 heavy weapon/guy in all HW squads, which they all got to fire, which results in heavy infantry having low body count, turning them into glass cannons). It would be much easier to have each soldier fire a single weapon (for instance, 1 heavy bolter, 3 lasguns would result in 3 HB shot, and 7 lasguns in a squad of 10 (1 HB, 3 lasguns, 1 HB, 3 lasguns, 1 HB, last guy wit lasgun). I need your support with this proposition there.

So I apologize if someone regrets his purchase because I might have turned a blind eye on some flaws of the system.
However, it would be easy to make an epic mod :
Turning all weapons to bulky (ie no return fire), increasing all spot ranges and weapon range twofold, and decreasing movement for infantry(so that transports serve some purpose other than cheesing gorgon fire), would make the ruleset pretty close to epic (actually, Space Marines).
All that would be needed would be to remove the spotting/Los range cap (currently at 4 for no good reason), and possibly, change the way infantry works (but it could be done without that, Epic used abstracted weapon values for a whole infantry squad).

 

[Galdred]

Another issue is that armor values are way too close fron each other :
Land Speeder has armor 30, same as steel legion infantry.
Space Marines have 40, only 3 more than Steel legion command.
Basilisks are 41, predators 60 and Leman Russ 65.
so basically, most weapons able to kill Steel Legion will be able to destroy light vehicles and artillery.
In order to be immune to a weapon, health needs to be 50 higher than weapon strength.
As armor values are so close together, we end up with each weapon working against everything (which is amplified by antu infantry having multiple shots to make up fot lack of blast), except for supetheavies (90+) and titans (around 120).
Note that this is not an engine limitation but the consequence of the values chosen for unit stats.

 

[Galdred]

Darth Roxor, holla_cabezas_de_mierda, Dr Skeleton, I have quoted some of your complains about infantry on Slitherine forum. Is it ok with you? Otherwise, I will edit my post there to remove your quotes otherwise (I can also incluse your nicknames in the quote if you prefer):
http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=235&t=54848&p=511899#p511899

 

[Dr Skeleton]

No problem. I've been thinking about posting there myself, but people have already posted what I wanted more or less.
And yes, the longer I play, the more I'm convinced that the biggest problem is the return fire mechanic. Armor and weapon values need tweaking, but heavy tanks will dominate everything as long as they can fire on every grot squad that comes near them.

 

[Galdred]

The last two patchs added some needed features :
- Increased strength (ie bodycount) for infantry (I still wish infantry had more bodycount, and less firepower, especially against tanks with non dedicated AT weapons. That said, once you accept it is their wonky way of abstracting the fact that there should be a few heavy weapons in each platoon, like in Space Marines, the ancestor to epic 40K, it makes the pill easier to swallow).
- right clicking now displays detailed stats
- reinforcements after a mission are not bugged anymore : All units are replenished for free, and your REQ is mission requistion - core force cost.
I didn't have time to try it yet, but this sounds like a step in the right direction.

 

[Destroid]

The last two patchs added some needed features :
- Increased strength (ie bodycount) for infantry (I still wish infantry had more bodycount, and less firepower, especially against tanks with non dedicated AT weapons. That said, once you accept it is their wonky way of abstracting the fact that there should be a few heavy weapons in each platoon, like in Space Marines, the ancestor to epic 40K, it makes the pill easier to swallow).
- right clicking now displays detailed stats
- reinforcements after a mission are not bugged anymore : All units are replenished for free, and your REQ is mission requistion - core force cost.
I didn't have time to try it yet, but this sounds like a step in the right direction.

If they modelled the units in just a tiny bit more detail they could do away with some of the awkwardness in the armour system. It's confusing to enumerate individual weapons for units but for those weapons to be so abstract.

 

[Galdred]

Indeed, I have championed for a per squad loadout for infantry instead of a per soldier basis since beta, but so far, without success.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Commissar has demoed this cause 40 Oiro is too bocoup money for game which will be completed in two years and I must said its solid Panzer Corps clone done in WH40K; as a bonus you got consoltard peasants complaining about lack of bloom and 3D effects:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2nmn1f/the_war_for_armageddon_warhammer_40000_released/



Models are detailed and there are every forgeworld vesicle variant you can think of; The Bad: Space Marines and Titans under tactical command of PDF Commander. Made them AI controlled would be fine but AI here is grade; so in conclusion will buy it with all DLCs and expansion bundle.

 

[Dr Skeleton]

as a bonus you got consoltard peasants complaining about lack of bloom and 3D effects:

Someone on the steam forum wrote that the game is shit because it's not Dawn of War and 40k doesn't work as "chess" (turn-based).

 

[Darth Roxor]

I started playing this on very hard.

Protip: do not play this on very hard. The difficulty setting does nothing except increasing the sizes of enemy mobs, which grow to preposterous sizes. Compared to the squad sizes on normal/challenging, the enemy squads have 33% more units! All sorts of boyz go from 40 dudes to 60, mega armoured nobz go from 25 to 37, kill crushas go from 4 to 6, skullhammer tanks from 2 to 3, etc etc etc. You can spend an entire fucking turn just shooting a single squad of dudes, ffs, as if those hp bloated mega armoured nobz that camp fortifications or someshit weren't already annoying enough.

It's not even "hard", it just becomes an even more shameless save scumming fest where you have to evade falling into spot traps or you'll get clobbered into the ground.

Also, all the supposed balance patches that got applied since the game's release didn't fix jack shit. Everything is exactly the same as it was before with the slight exception that you now get toitinz only in the final stages of chapter 2.

 

[Darth Roxor]

For anyone who doesn't follow tcancer

http://www.tacticularcancer.com/content.php?id=4580

 

[catfood]

Behead those who don't follow TCancer.