Squeenix Final Fantasy Tactics mod discussion

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

As for 1.3, there's always Content patch if you don't like the special brand of BS that the normal version has going. Personally I do believe that the "RPG" aspect of FFT is almost completely lost in 1.3, where it doesn't really feel like you're gaining in power and more "What ability do I need to get past this brick wall?"

If it wasn't for those abilities that actually do have to be balanced around high JP costs such as Teleport, Short Charge, Hamedo etc... 1.3 WOULD probably make for a better "puzzle game patch" by just having every abilities unlocked at the start.

Couldn't have said it better myself. When I tried talking to creator ("why not make FFEdit a legitimate alternative to Mandalia Plain grind"), the reaction was "OMG you cheat your opinion is irrelevant". LOL.

These arguments would have a lot more weight if not for the fact that Spekkio did a LP where he let random people decide on their classes and abilities, didn't know a fucking thing about zodiac signs or brave/faith, and declared the first zodiac beast impossible and ragequit. He then uploaded the save and I won the fight using his characters setup in a different way on my first attempt. It was an awful sub optimal party and I still won a boss fight on my first attempt. An actual well planned party with inner party synergies (100% buff rates for your white mage, etc.) and decent stats (instead of a 40~ faith black mage) would steamroll.

Congratulations.

Actually 1st Zodiac fight is the mod's shining moment.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't feel like any congratulations are in order. I am by no means an impressive player of the game. I just understand the core mechanics. Having that as a prerequisite to play a difficult game is not unreasonable, even if the game is a complex one. I don't play Civ on hard and bash it as only being winnable if you savescum for a good start and then reload every time you make a bad call or need to scout somewhere. I can just admit I'm bad at the fucking game and people who can play it on high difficulty settings know more shit than I do. I don't want the game to be dumbed down for my sake.

Mandalia Plains grind doesn't need a legitimate alternative because it's not a legitimate way to play the game to begin with. You may as well ask nethack devs to give starting players dozens of wands of wishing 'as a legitimate alternative to scumming infinite black puddings from a sink'. Because that is pretty much the exact analogue for what you are doing, is farming something that isn't supposed to be farmed to get access to far more power than you should have access to.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

I don't feel like any congratulations are in order. I am by no means an impressive player of the game. I just understand the core mechanics. Having that as a prerequisite to play a difficult game is not unreasonable, even if the game is a complex one. I don't play Civ on hard and bash it as only being winnable if you savescum for a good start and then reload every time you make a bad call or need to scout somewhere. I can just admit I'm bad at the fucking game and people who can play it on high difficulty settings know more shit than I do. I don't want the game to be dumbed down for my sake.

Mandalia Plains grind doesn't need a legitimate alternative because it's not a legitimate way to play the game to begin with. You may as well ask nethack devs to give starting players dozens of wands of wishing 'as a legitimate alternative to scumming infinite black puddings from a sink'. Because that is pretty much the exact analogue for what you are doing, is farming something that isn't supposed to be farmed to get access to far more power than you should have access to.

Let's try it again.

I might have an idea like "hey, I wanna steal from Elmdor!". To even have Thief skills, you need to have someone in a Thief class and hit mobs with that guy in the Thief class ~100 times to get the needed "Steal Helm" etc. But what if I've never used a Thief before? Uh, hello Mandalia! In a more mundane example, I might need Auto-Potion or (later on) Damage Split to beat a difficult battle. Hello Mandalia, goodbye 2-3 hours of my life.

1.3 is chock-full of such tedium. FFT (original) with its class system was designed in a "make up stuff as you go" fashion. This is the complete opposite of the FFT1.3 mentality which encourages searching for optimal classes, builds and class combos yet doesn't really offer you the means of getting them except boring metagame (Mandalia, playing with a sub-optimal class that you just want to level, etc.) It's like if you had a chess game where you had to grind to earn your chess pieces - it satisfies neither the "I want challenge" people who want to get straight to the point, nor the RPG crowd.

To paraphrase, like a poster above has mentioned, is that it's not really fun anymore as an RPG: it feels more like an RPG that tries to be a difficult puzzle game but is ill-equipped by the engine to do so.

...

PS: I don't care what's "legitimate" in game maker's eyes, I care to make the game experience as fulfilling for me as it can be. If I cheat in a roguelike, I ruin my own fun (they're designed from ground up this way). Unfortunately, for me, FFT1.3 is fun neither as an RPG nor as a puzzle game. If you actually cheat to bypass the "RPG" bit, you'll realize how shallow the puzzle aspect is as well once you get past the "mechanics". Just pure masochism, and nostalgia for FFT story, characters and music made me beat it once.

 

[spekkio]

@DR

1) Don't forget that I was playing 1.3 Easytype, not 1.3 TRUE.
2) For me, a good tactical game gives you a choice to win a particular "difficult" battle by changing your "tactics" DURING this battle. How to do this without dumbing the difficulty down is another thing. In case of 1.3 it's not always possible and leads to "try-reload-change setup-try again-win" approach. Or grind a bit if you lack some skill. And don't tell me I should plan 30 battles ahead, utilizing my extensive knowledge of "core game mechanics".
3) Another thing - luck. If you can die just when "bad shit happens" or win by pure luck (enemy missed or decided to use weaker attack), game is badly designed.
4) And this "core mechanics" sometimes mean "stupid things that AI does", which made me rage when playing Advance Wars - you can find Walkthroughs, where people describe what should be done (turn by turn) to win the battle - AI will ALWAYS act the same.

But we all have to admit, that making a good tactical game is fucking difficult - nobody was able to successfuly copy UFO / JA2 in the West or create a "perfect japtactical game" in the East (every OB/TA game is broken in some way).
And every "hardtype" mod for FFT has its haters.

So, I'm 100% with Rpgsaurus on this one. If 1.3 changes FFT to puzzle game ("which combination of skills should I use to win this battle"), RPG mechanics (gaining EXP/JP and improving your units with it) should be removed.

 

[spekkio]

Oh, one more thing:

didn't know a fucking thing about zodiac signs or brave/faith

Both things can't be changed mid-game in 1.3. So you have to plan ahead (at the beginning of the game), either by filtering out "bad" recruits (both stats low) or using techniques that don't require high brave / faith (not that many).
In my LP, when I increased everybody's B/F, all units magically started to suck much less.

Which proves Rpgsaurus' point.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Guys, if I suddenly have an idea to 'build hoover dam' while playing civ, I have no right to bitch about how not planning to do that from the beginning prevents me from doing it now. Gee, I want to have a high bravery team in xcom, gawd, it's so dumb that I have to suddenly fire all my soldiers and hire new ones and grind their skills up, why doesn't game jsut give them to me! SO DUMB. And you NEED the high brave units to win because I suck and don't know how to play any other way !!!one Guys I played bloodbowl and it sux because I need to grind different skills for every matchup, I can't beat dwarves without dodge and leap on every single player and it takes hours this game sux tooo!

There is no fucking battle short of deep dungeon shit you need auto potion or damage split for, I assure you. Even there it's probably not at all necessary.

If you want a game that gives you all the fucking different elements you can possibly customize with, why should there even be any such elements anyways? Why not just make every fucking unit a vanilla guy with no skills except a basic weapon attack. All with the same weapon and stats. Then you never have to feel bad about making a shitty team.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

spekkio

Agreed, having high/low faith is a direct trade-off, however brave is the opposite - having more brave is always better (with very significant results - inter alia, brave is % of passive abilities triggering, so even 10 points can make a huge difference to character). Intra-party Zodiac compatibility, again, makes a huge difference.

As a result, spending 2-3 hours (or 1-2 minutes in editor) grinding a perfect starting setup can make a very big difference to the game's difficulty. Seems kinda broken to me, for a mod that posits itself as a "tactical challenge extravaganza".

There is no fucking battle short of deep dungeon shit you need auto potion or damage split for, I assure you. Even there it's probably not at all necessary.

I can tell straight away you're either tremendously good at 1.3 (better than anyone I've heard of) or never actually gotten very far with it. I've never in my life heard of anyone beating 1.3 without using these two (esp. the latter now that Auto Potion has been nerfed) to tank harder battles.

 

[spekkio]

Civ

So, Civ is a tactical game, 100% about combat? Your example is something related more to strategical, long-term decisions.

Ufo

Well, one thing is certain - having to kick out 90% of your team when you get the Psi skill is fucking retarded and an example of bad design.

1.3 HARD

Did you get a chance to actually play it, 'cuz AFAIR when I was doing my LP you didn't have the knowledge about what was changed in 1.3 and what wasn't? You were surprised by some changes and I had to point out that some of your tips from vanilla didn't work in 1.3 Easytype.



You actually completed 1.3 Hard, yes? Rex did.

rant at the end

You clearly don't have a clue what we are talking about. Current gameplay of 1.3 either:
- encourages grinding ("I need a particular skill or at least useful set of skills, to beat boss X), which wasn't the case in vanilla,
- makes levelling-up a bad choice. Which leads to:

Why not just make every fucking unit a vanilla guy with no skills except a basic weapon attack. All with the same weapon and stats. Then you never have to feel bad about making a shitty team

To quote my post from page #2:

Supposedly you can combat this by using "skill and game mechanics over equipment", but when the archers can 1HKO you from across the map and their wizard can do a cyclone for 150 of your team's 120 HP before you can even get a turn... yeah I'm just not seeing it. Every video playthough I've seen either has everyone as low as possible or goes for 99 at the start of the game to even up the gear (randoms will have the same as story for gear). So while the philosophy of the patch is "skill over gear", I have yet to see anyone prove it. But that's just my rant of 1.3.0.6.

 

[betamin]

I got to 1 fight before the ending in the newer (harder) version without damage split, Vormav whooped me on the one on one though (probably because I didn't had damage split), the best tactic I could develop had like a 4% chance so I said fuck it I ain't replaying shit and never played it again.

You don't need to grind in MOST of the game, you do need to save skill points until you actually need them AND try and unlock all the clases you can as soon as possible (getting crystals is a big plus).

The game isn't just a "puzzle game", it has a lot of flexibility and allows victory with a VERY wide party choice (unless you do the challenge fights), I played until mid chapter 4 with almost only monsters once and then I got bored. I ain't arguing that the faith shit sucks balls, I don't particulary care for "meta knowledge difficulty" but whatever, the game was very fun to me maybe because of my ignorance.

 

[Murk]

I've gotten halfway through chapter 3 on 1.3 hard without auto-potion and damage split (I did use HP Restore tho). I stopped playing when my interest ran out, but the Deep Dungeon just seemed like an exercise in masochism when I saw some of the preview battles. I have my save so I'll probably return to it and continue on. I may try the Deep Dungeon a few times but who knows.

I donno, I liked 1.3. I can understand why people wouldn't but for me it definitely reinvigorated my interest in the game that I had beaten so many times. You guys say it takes out the RPG or makes it into a puzzle-game and I'm ok with that. I've played FFT so many times and ran so many self imposed challenges that I'm happy to take on absolutely stupid setups.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

betamin
Mikayel

I'm probably being too hard on it, true. It was fun for me, at least until I've reached that ~Colliery (side-quest) stage when it became beating it for the sake of beating it.

 

[Murk]

Well, not really. I mean, be as hard on it as you want to be. In fact bro, I want you to be hard 24-7. I WISH I WAS HARD RIGHT NOW.

Sorry, jut kinda flew out.

If you don't enjoy the game then hell man, don't play it -- I guess I'm just voicing the other side. Having played the game so much it's become more of a meta-game and challenge simulator on a good turn-based engine more than anything else. I can impose self-challenges as much as I want but to have the chance to modify how the actual coded stuff works... now that's great. Basically, it's all good to me.

 

[TigerKnee]

I actually like 1.3's balance changes and new content. It's the decision of having challenge for its own sake as opposed to challenge as a means to making a more interesting/fun game that bugs me.

For what it's worth, I thought Wild Arms XF, which is the closest thing to an FFT clone (even closer than FFTA ironically), tried to do the whole "puzzle SRPG" thing and it actually had an advancement system that supports it.

If you change to a class, you get just about EVERY feature of a class while you're in it. That means you'll never find yourself going "Oh, I need the ability of a Geomancer here, but I haven't learned any Geo abilities... well, time to grind!" because the bare minimum that you need to win is provided.

Levelling up XF's equivalent of "job levels" gives you the ability to take stuff OUT of a class and transfer it on a different class, which is where you get the FFT-like customability part and long-term advancement. Also unlocks more slots to take in stuff from other classes and at final level unlocks a "capstone feat" for your class.

If 1.3 was able to be completely rebuilt from a completely new engine, that would probably be the sort of system I would use for it.

 

[desocupado]

I read this whole thread, but I don't remember if it was mentioned, and I'm not re-reading it. So, if I just want to play the psx game with the new translation, what do I have to do?

Also, what self-imposed challenges can I use to make the game more challenging? I'm thinking of not using any story character besides Ramza.

Or maybe I should try a rebalancing mod? I'm very wary of mods because modders are retarded fucks, but I'm open to suggestion from my codex bros. Pinging spekkio

EDIT: Preferably instructions on how to apply the patch, if they're not available at the website for downloading it.

 

[spekkio]

1) Grab the new translation here. It's a .ppf file.
2) Grab ppf patcher here.
3) Apply patch to your .bin image.
4) Enjoy.

Don't touch any rebalancing mods.

I'm thinking of not using any story character besides Ramza

Good idea. Makes the game more difficult.

 

[SCO]

I only played vanilla, like 10 years ago, but you can't do that can you? I mean, normally, in the fights they are introduced, you don't control them/choose them.

 

[SerratedBiz]

There are the times in which they're forced in as guests, but later on some of them get recruited into your party and you get the chance to use them as regular soldiers, which is what I think he's referring to.

Which basically made the difficulty plummet once Orlandu made it into your party.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

I read this whole thread, but I don't remember if it was mentioned, and I'm not re-reading it. So, if I just want to play the psx game with the new translation, what do I have to do?

Also, what self-imposed challenges can I use to make the game more challenging? I'm thinking of not using any story character besides Ramza.

Or maybe I should try a rebalancing mod? I'm very wary of mods because modders are retarded fucks, but I'm open to suggestion from my codex bros. Pinging spekkio

EDIT: Preferably instructions on how to apply the patch, if they're not available at the website for downloading it.

desocupado

No, no no. Don't do what spekkio says, the original truly blows in terms of difficulty curve. Once you get Orlandu last 25% of the game much becomes story mode (as you can p. much auto-battle). It's fine for your first playthrough, I guess, but you're replaying right?

Get Easytype. http://www.insanedifficulty.com/board/index.php?/files/file/30-fft-content-13-easy-mode/

Nice balance changes + gameplay additions, difficulty is average. (a few battles can be hard if you just wanna lame through quickly with "fav party", but if it's too hard and you don't wanna sperg over it, you can just go grind without getting punished)

Judging by your own post, avoid 1.3 original difficulty like the plague.

 

[spekkio]

^
Classic case of reading comprehension fail.

1) He wants the new translation. "Content" (and most "rebalancing" mods) uses original translation.
2) He wrote about "not using any story character besides Ramza", so Cid making the game too easy shouldn't be a problem.

Besides, both Easy (Content) and Normal versions of 1.3 suck fucking donkey balls and should be avoided by everyone (except spergs, who completed the game 70 times).

/thread

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Didn't see he wanted translation first and foremost... here's new (WotL aka ye olde Englishe) translation. (aka FFT: Complete), original difficulty.
http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=2686.0

The most updated one on insanedifficulty I'm not sure about - whether it uses old or new, I haven't checked.
spekkio I dunno why you hate Easytype 1.3 so much? Its' difficulty is alright, it's still among the harder games out there but not to the point where you have to sperg to beat it.

Update: to prove you wrong, I distinctly remember playing 1.3 Easytype with ye olde Englishe, so I found the link http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=3952.0

Download link http://philsov.ffhacktics.com/FFT 1.3/


...


I agree, beating FFT solo is a valid challenge especially if you stick to the proper Straight Character rules. Very, very spergy with some classes.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/27673

If he wants a "standard party playthrough" of FFT and he already played the game once, I'd stick to Easytype 1.3 recommendation.

 

[spekkio]

Could you please read previous posts BEFORE posting?

1) Your link to FFT Complete (PSP translation) is wrong - the one I posted is correct.
2) Yes, there is an old version of 1.3 with PSP translation included (I used it when making my LP last year - PSX_13034ez_Complete.ppf). But it's outdated.
AFAIK both up-to-date versions of 1.3 (1.3.0.6) - vanilla aka Hard and "Content" aka Easy - use old PS1 translation.

why you hate Easytype 1.3 so much?

I hate it immensly, but I hate fags who can't read even more - desocupado asked for new translation first and foremost.
Imagine him asking for some nice straight porn. And you butt in with a tranny self-blowjob. WTF, dude?

tl;dr

I dunno

this

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Could you please read previous posts BEFORE posting?

1) Your link to FFT Complete (PSP translation) is wrong - the one I posted is correct.
2) Yes, there is an old version of 1.3 with PSP translation included (I used it when making my LP last year - PSX_13034ez_Complete.ppf). But it's outdated.
AFAIK both up-to-date versions of 1.3 (1.3.0.6) - vanilla aka Hard and "Content" aka Easy - use old PS1 translation.

why you hate Easytype 1.3 so much?

I hate it immensly, but I hate fags who can't read even more - desocupado asked for new translation first and foremost.
Imagine him asking for some nice straight porn. And you butt in with a tranny self-blowjob. WTF, dude?

tl;dr

I dunno

this

He asked, let me quote him

Also, what self-imposed challenges can I use to make the game more challenging? I'm thinking of not using any story character besides Ramza.

Or maybe I should try a rebalancing mod? I'm very wary of mods because modders are retarded fucks, but I'm open to suggestion from my codex bros. Pinging

Hence, I recommended him 1.3 Easytype. Which, in my opinion, is in every way superior to vanilla. AND it's available in the WotL "ye olde Englishe".

outdated...

It had excellent quality when I played it, back in the day - with positive improvements to balance/difficulty all around without forcing me to grind anything, ever, or sperg over optimal setups unless I wanted to. What makes it so outdated? Care to provide any changes between 1.3 Easytype "old" Complete and "new" 1.3 Easytype without Complete (which is useless anyway, as you say, because desocupado wanted a WotL translation). This issue is completely irrelevant, anyhow, since he wanted a translation, so,

in other words, the choice is either:

A. to play FFT Complete, translation only (your suggestion).

B. to play FFT 1.3 Easytype with translation (my suggestion - see my reason in bold). All my rage in this thread was towards FFT 1.3 Hardtype - which I have a love/hate relationship with

I'd go with B., because without self-imposed challenges (and even *with*) it's a mess balance and difficulty curve-wise, as opposed to a mod that forces gradually increasing difficulty, makes every single class/item/ability have some use and nerfs/removes gamebreaking stuff (Blade Grasp, TGC, Calculators).

...

More about solo challenges:

The reason why I wouldn't recommend it is you either go "freeform" solo challenge and become unbeatable walking machine of death (pick the most OP abilities/items, crush everything) which misses the "challenge" part, or go proper straight class solo challenge (see the link in my previous post to how it's done), which is FAR more spergy than FFT 1.3 Hardtype even, unless it's something like Ninja (and even then expect 20+ reloads on some fights).

Which is why a proper difficulty mod > solo if you would like a challenge. IMO, ofc.

 

[spekkio]

Ok, so he should play 1.3 Easytype Complete.
He will most likely ragequit during 1st fight against Milleuda, anyway.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Well, there's always the option of grinding random encounter for a bit (?) to simply outlevel the opposition if you're unwilling to sperg over a better setup, for pretty much every encounter. In FFT1.3 Hardtype, we both know what that would lead to :sadistic:

I think Miluda fight in particular requires a reset or two with a weak party if you're careless, but even with a VERY weak party + phoenix downs (every character has "item" from lvl 1) you can simply out-"sandbag" the encounter, even on Hardtype IIRC.

We're here to give him advice, after all!

 

[TigerKnee]

"Not touching storyline characters" isn't exactly a high challenge criteria, because when you take availability time into account (mostly in terms of more JP for abilities), you basically only get "Orlandu" in the list of "viable special character to use wtihout tons of extra grinding to catch them up" in Vanilla FFT.

Generics that are properly set up almost always win against special characters, and the only reason I use special characters is as a gimmick. Most of my FFT runs is almost all Ramza + 4 generics.