Interview Frightening Drakensang interview at RPG Vault

[bryce777]

why would you want combat to take longer in the IE games? And its far too repetitive and easy to require that level of micromanagement. Hell, i never even cast spells because combat rarely warranted it and not doing it was quicker.

maybe the combat sucks in BG BECAUSE it is realtime. That is the obvious answer.

If you had fewer, but more interesting and challenging combats it would be better.

here is also nothing remotely realistic about BG style realtime, nor is it faster than turnbased combat...except for the very easiest/lamest battles.

 

[Gambler]

Roqua answered this.

I don't see how. The fact that turn-based games have real-time mode only shows that turn-based movement has limitations.

Your grenade example has nothing to do with RTwP.

It has a lot to do with RTwP. In a turn-based combat grenades are usually thrown during a single turn, so the described situation is impossible. Action points are not adequate replacement for timers.

You mean kind of like how turn based works?

No. TB combat relies on action points and initiative.

There are many threads about it with a lot of good analysis of the advantages/disadvantages of the various systems.

Good analysis? I haven't seen any analysis.

You're using BG, IWD and KOTOR as examples of RTwP, but all of those games are based on D20, which was never meant for real time. You're bashing real-time in general, but demand concrete examples of why it's good. You claim that TB is better than RT, completely ignoring the fact that it depends on implementation.

Do this brigade not realise just how many fucking 'realism'-compromising abstractions are already taking place with RT?

The usual catch-all argument. But it does very little to support "RT always sucks" position.

Would you lot argue for real-time dialogue (you must decide your answer in 3 seconds)?

Fahrenheit implemented timed responses.

 

[suibhne]

Gambler, give us one good example of real-time RPG combat where the interface latency didn't suck and where combat didn't depend at least partly on player skill rather than character skill.

Anyway, BG and IWD weren't d20. :wink:

 

[Gambler]

Gambler, give us one good example

Evil Islands. Why should I give you examples anyways? You make a claim about RT in general, and you should support it by arguments tha apply to RT in general.

Also, you imply that reliance on player skill completely negates the tactical side of combat, whcih is BS.

Anyway, BG and IWD weren't d20.

You would correct me even if I said they're all D&D games. The difference in nitty gritty details is relevant only to complete tabletop geeks. The point is, (A)D&D/d20 combat was not meant for real time. And despite that Infinity-based games have more tactics than many TB games. Implementation is much more imporatnt than whether it's TB or RTwP.

 

[Mefi]

I don't see how. The fact that turn-based games have real-time mode only shows that turn-based movement has limitations.

I thought we were talking about combat not moving about the map?

It has a lot to do with RTwP. In a turn-based combat grenades are usually thrown during a single turn, so the described situation is impossible. Action points are not adequate replacement for timers.

Ok, so you use an action to pull the pin. Then there could be opportunity fire. Assuming that the combat mechanic allows targetting of specific body parts etc etc, the hand gets shot, the grenade is dropped and explodes etc etc etc. Do you understand now?

Good luck trying to pause at exactly the right moment with a real-time engine to get the same effect.

No. TB combat relies on action points and initiative.

And your example relies on a modified form of action point. Only you call it a timer. What exactly does an action point represent? I'll give you a cookie when you work it out.

Good analysis? I haven't seen any analysis.

Try a combination of 'search' and reading. A useful pairing. This argument is boring as it's been done so many times before as so many people join the forum and claim unique insight into why RT is so great within this particular context.

You're using BG, IWD and KOTOR as examples of RTwP, but all of those games are based on D20, which was never meant for real time. You're bashing real-time in general, but demand concrete examples of why it's good. You claim that TB is better than RT, completely ignoring the fact that it depends on implementation.
.

Find me a good implementation. Please. We've had how many years since Baldur's Gate? One good implementation of RTwP which can match an average implementation of TB, do things TB cannot do and provide greater tactical options in combat.

 

[suibhne]

Gambler, give us one good example

Evil Islands. Why should I give you examples anyways? You make a claim about RT in general, and you should support it by arguments tha apply to RT in general.

I said RT typically imposed much more interface latency than TB, which is undeniably true (since TB by its nature means that latency isn't a gameplay issue - tho it might be a serious UI flaw, which is a different matter entirely). I didn't make any other claims than that.

Also, you imply that reliance on player skill completely negates the tactical side of combat, whcih is BS.

Also, you imply that I implied that reliance on player skill has anything the fuck to do with tactics, which is BS.

My point had nothing to do with combat being tactical; you're confusing me with other people here. Hell, I cut my teeth on Myth and Myth 2 back in the day, so I have no doubt that RT can be incredibly tactical with the right setup. My point (which I guess I implied...) was that an RPG combat system should rely on character skill rather than player skill, and I've never yet seen an RT combat system that didn't rely on player skill to an inappropriate degree. (I.e., an inappropriate degree for an RPG...not for a tactical combat game like Commandos or Myth 2.)

To be fair, I haven't played Evil Islands.

Anyway, BG and IWD weren't d20.

You would correct me even if I said they're all D&D games. The difference in nitty gritty details is relevant only to complete tabletop geeks.

This is only the third post I've made in this thread. I think I'l let that thing crawl out of your ass before engaging you any further.

 

[Gambler]

Good luck trying to pause at exactly the right moment with a real-time engine to get the same effect.

OMG, games require you to notice enemies!!! That's a player perception skill. Games suck, stop playing them.

BTW, 3d space is just a modified version of chess board.

Try a combination of 'search' and reading.

Try linking or quoting instead of giving generic crap like that.

This argument is boring

Yes, because you repeat yourself over and over again.

One good implementation of RTwP which can match an average implementation of TB

What's an average implementation of TB? Space Rangers? Fallout? BoK?

do things TB cannot do

What kind of things can you do in TB RPGs that are not possible in real time?

and provide greater tactical options in combat.

Like what?

 

[Crichton]

My point had nothing to do with combat being tactical; you're confusing me with other people here. Hell, I cut my teeth on Myth and Myth 2 back in the day, so I have no doubt that RT can be incredibly tactical with the right setup. My point (which I guess I implied...) was that an RPG combat system should rely on character skill rather than player skill, and I've never yet seen an RT combat system that didn't rely on player skill to an inappropriate degree. (I.e., an inappropriate degree for an RPG...not for a tactical combat game like Commandos or Myth 2.)

Any RTwP game that implements autopausing whenever you can issue a new order removes the whole latency/automation isssue. In any of the IE games you can remove all the AI scripts from your party and still never have them idle because you can set the game to pause whenever their "round" ends. (And of course, when combat starts or an enemy is spotted, etc.)

 

[Mefi]

OMG, games require you to notice enemies!!! That's a player perception skill. Games suck, stop playing them.

You're not getting this whole message board thing are you? I'm not certain how to activate the Fisher Price font set on this board to get through to you. A good tip is to stop for a second, think for a second and then type. Maintaining at least some coherence or logical development of your points is also useful.

What has noticing enemies got to do with the ability to shoot grenades out of hands which is only possible in a real-time engines (according to you)? Or are you automating the whole combat mechanism to the great god called RNG to choose where to target and all the player has to do is pause and then target? Help me out here, I'm trying to think like you but I'm finding it hard and I don't want a lobotomy.

BTW, 3d space is just a modified version of chess board.

Thanks for your pearl of wisdom. Don't forget to set your timer next time you wank, you might explode or something without it.

Try linking or quoting instead of giving generic crap like that.

Why would I want to link to the search engine? Can you not find it? Here you go young padowan, your next test is even harder... figuring out how to use it... oh noes...

http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/search.php

Yes, because you repeat yourself over and over again.

I'm not certain how else to get through to you. Perhaps if I hammer it into your thick head hard enough, something, some tiny fragment, will get through? Probably not but hey, this is the codex and we're such friendly people here.

What's an average implementation of TB? Space Rangers? Fallout? BoK?

Take your pick. I really don't care. Take what you consider to be an average implementation of a Turn Based system. Even if you can't frame a good argument, at least entertain. It's a real drag answering you and I'm usually so happy to meet a new dumbfuck.

What kind of things can you do in TB RPGs that are not possible in real time?

You're kind of missing the point. You don't bother to search for and then read anything already posted debating this subject ad nauseam but then decide you are so special that you can refute the hive mind. Go for it. But the onus is on you to provide the evidence that your unique and oh so very precious perspective is the correct one.

But because I'm such a lovely person I'll suggest that in a turn based system you can implement tactical options which are not possible in a real-time system without devolving character skill to player skill.

Like what?

I don't know, it's your bloody argument and I'm asking you to substantiate it . If you haven't got a clue then how the fuck am I meant to interpret your ramblings?

 

[St. Toxic]

What kind of things can you do in TB that are not possible in real time?

I can meditate on my response to you, instead of just going "Shut the hell up." like I might have done in a live chat. Know what the next big thing on the market will be? I asked Olbov Konjev ( the lead developer of STALKER: Oblivion found, we're best friends ) and he told me of this new game he was working on that utilized simultanious-turn based combat. Pretty covert stuff.

Also, Roqua is pretty gosh darn funky. Does that guy get enough appreciation?

 

[kingcomrade]

Simultaneous turn based combat...
If that turns out like all of the other simultaneous systems out there, it should rather be called, "Computer goes first."

 

[Roqua]

Also, Roqua is pretty gosh darn funky. Does that guy get enough appreciation?

No. I'm not very popular. I guess I'm some kind of big jerk or something.

 

[suibhne]

Any RTwP game that implements autopausing whenever you can issue a new order removes the whole latency/automation isssue. In any of the IE games you can remove all the AI scripts from your party and still never have them idle because you can set the game to pause whenever their "round" ends. (And of course, when combat starts or an enemy is spotted, etc.)

Yeah, that's true. A good RTwP system could get around interface latency problems beautifully; I just wasn't thinking about RTwP because I thought the discussion was about strictly RT systems. That's what I get for coming into the thread halfway. I also wasn't thinking of BG's/BG2's system because it's so flawed in other ways - and Bioware's next "evolution", in NWN and then KotOR, was even worse.