Trenchmouth - a Point and Click Adventure - to be or not to be?

[ERYFKRAD]

Darth Roxor y/n?

 

[Victor Pflug]

I hear what you're saying. But it's not about trust, it's simply how things work.

How did Primordia "pop out fully formed from the ether"? There was no Kickstarter and it turned out to be, as others have said, one of the best Adventures in recent memory.

Yeah I guess - I'm just thinking if it worked for the Hero-U spinoff why not us? I think we have a way better product than most KS P&Cs that were successful so why do things *harder* than they do? Why bust my own balls?

Primordia was a slog and I only managed that because it was low res. Have a look at the above portrait - it is in no way cheap and easy to do that.

 

[Hobo Elf]

If you truly believe in your project then it's always worth a try. You have a unique style of art that I found enjoyable in Strangeland and so I hope I'll be able to enjoy more games with it in the future.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I think it’s also worth pointing out that, according to the testimony of pretty much everyone who’s ever run a (successful) kickstarter, it’s basically a full-time job during the run-up and actual duration of the Kickstarter. If you do end up going the crowd-funding route I would recommend talking to someone like Blackthorne who has run a couple of successful campaigns already. I’m sure he’d be happy to give you a quick rundown of pros and cons, as well as what missteps to avoid (like physical add-ons). Or you could try and get in touch with the Himalaya Games folks (I wouldn’t solicit them for design advice though).

Edit: Since you’ve been mentioning the Hero-U spin-off, I know the Coles are also pretty approachable people; they might be willing to give you a few pointers. I wouldn’t mention the Codex though.

 

[lightbane]

Regarding the issue of donators self-inserting themselves into the game as backers, there are ways around it. Undertale for example put a disgusting furry fatass hidden in an optional area and is not even featured in the credits (although the other backers are). For Hollow Knight, everyone is a bug, so ugly bugs don't stand out much.
In this case, make them robots or something that are blown to bits seconds after meeting them.

 

[Victor Pflug]

I think it’s also worth pointing out that, according to the testimony of pretty much everyone who’s ever run a kickstarter, it’s basically a full-time job during the run-up and actual duration of the Kickstarter. If you do end up going the crowd-funding route I would recommend talking to someone like Blackthorne who has run a couple of successful campaigns already. I’m sure he’d be happy to give you a quick rundown of pros and cons, as well as what missteps to avoid (like physical add-one). Or you could try and get in touch with the Himalaya Games folks (I wouldn’t solicit them for design advice though).

Edit: Since you’ve been mentioning the Hero-U spin-off, I know the Coles are also pretty approachable people; they might be willing to give you a few pointers. I wouldn’t mention the Codex though.

Thanks, that's really helpful actually.

I mean I guess I really am playing Devil's Advocate right now - I do appreciate all the criticisms it's not like I went to the Codex with this with the idea that it would be danced around and lauded. If I can get even 60% + support of this idea here I'll take it as resounding positivity lol.

 

[Victor Pflug]

Regarding the issue of donators self-inserting themselves into the game as backers, there are ways around it. Undertale for example put a disgusting furry fatass hidden in an optional area and is not even featured in the credits (although the other backers are). For Hollow Knight, everyone is a bug, so ugly bugs don't stand out much.
In this case, make them robots or something that are blown to bits seconds after meeting them.

Yeah blown apart robots is a pretty good idea. I don't like the notion of weird haired NPCs standing around that paid their way in, I mean I'm a graphics whore not a... Money whore.

EDIT) Well, not a HUGE money whore.

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

Yeah I guess - I'm just thinking if it worked for the Hero-U spinoff why not us?

What! I cannot Hero U spinoff nonsense anon because it does not have cute heterosexual human male WHITE main character anon anon! Does not! What! Do you game have cute heterosexual human male WHITE main character anon anon! Do you! Thank you anon! You are a good anon!

 

[Blackthorne]

Thanks, that's really helpful actually.

I mean I guess I really am playing Devil's Advocate right now - I do appreciate all the criticisms it's not like I went to the Codex with this with the idea that it would be danced around and lauded. If I can get even 60% + support of this idea here I'll take it as resounding positivity lol.

Hey, if you're curious about kickstarter, feel free to pick my brain. I've not only run mine, but I've run several others for people as well (not just in the games industry; I've run successful ones for friends of mine who were making albums, books, etc.) Drop me a line here, or email me - info at infamous-quests.com - and I'd love to help you if I can.

 

[Victor Pflug]

Thanks, that's really helpful actually.

I mean I guess I really am playing Devil's Advocate right now - I do appreciate all the criticisms it's not like I went to the Codex with this with the idea that it would be danced around and lauded. If I can get even 60% + support of this idea here I'll take it as resounding positivity lol.

Hey, if you're curious about kickstarter, feel free to pick my brain. I've not only run mine, but I've run several others for people as well (not just in the games industry; I've run successful ones for friends of mine who were making albums, books, etc.) Drop me a line here, or email me - info at infamous-quests.com - and I'd love to help you if I can.

Hey! Thank you SO much!!! I will definitely DM you! I have a lot of ideas about how I'd go about it, but I'm out of my depth here definitely.

 

[Michael Faragher]

I feel I need to wade in here, as this is partly my fault for asking, "Hey, do you need help with Trenchmouth?"

Too many variables to give a sensible opinion consumer-wise, you go entertain us with some two-screen demo first Victor

Demos are important, but they need to be the right demo. We've had tech demos, but they're not representative. The peak demo, in my opinion, was for the original Fallout. Same engine, completely different plot. One map, limited character sprites, but conversation, stealth, gunplay, and over the top gore. It was representative to the entire game. Our internal demos (and one external tech demo) were not. My core tenet of business is to manage expectations. If I offer something, I better deliver exactly that. People should know what their money buys and what it doesn't. If the Fallout demo didn't have conversations, I would've never bought the game because it was misrepresented.

Voted no.

The art and setting look amazing, it's a definite buy from me. But just release it with zero warning or hype, like Primordia and Strangeland.

I'm over Kickstarter, pre-orders and other pay-now-play-later-or-maybe-never scams.

Paying developers ahead of time never seems to work out well. It's like they spend the money early on, then there's no motivation to finish the thing properly. They rush to get something out the door and waste a lot of resources on fulfilling pledges etc.

Plus, no KS = no annoying purple-haired millennials being characters in the game because they saved up their Wendy's paychecks for a top tier pledge.

How did Primordia "pop out fully formed from the ether"? There was no Kickstarter and it turned out to be, as others have said, one of the best Adventures in recent memory.

These concerns are valid, and I wish there was a perfect way to deal with them all.

There was hype for Primordia. It may have been on AGS message boards, but there was run-up. In fact that's how WEG (the publisher) first found the game.

I get not wanting to Kickstart; I backed System Shock, Wasteland 2, TTON, Battletech, Star Citizen, and some other games that actually launched on time and on budget. It's infuriating, but it's a problem with the method, like you said. Many game designers go to Kickstarter because they have an idea, worked under a development lead or publisher before, and thought "I can do this!" Suddenly they realize why the publisher kept demanding changes and reducing scope.

Rewards are tricky, and inserting characters and physical rewards I can't place an order for today and forget about until shipping aren't worth the time.

Primordia was a long time in the making, and had the backing of a publisher. While it's possible to make a game like that in your free time, full-time development requires at least paying the rent and food costs for your developers. Then when you expand into professional voice acting, there's a financial outlay which isn't tremendous, but isn't something a single, average person can pull out of their pocket. Publishers are a lot like a bank, they turn a profit by getting you over that hump, so if you can pay cash, it's always cheaper in the long run.

Also, I have gone this far without saying, "You have spoken the words, and you have spoken them rightly." I'm proud of myself.

I'm happy for all the kind words and the well-reasoned feedback. If we do go for the Kickstarter, we'll do whatever we can to avoid every pitfall you've mentioned, and if you decide not to back us and wait for launch, I very much understand. I'd probably do the same. So much can go wrong, particularly if you're minding a release date and not a standard of quality.

Thanks, everyone.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Artwork is very brown.

 

[Victor Pflug]

Artwork is very brown.

I promise it will be less brown than Primordia. It will instead be all grey. :D

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Artwork is very brown.

I promise it will be less brown than Primordia. It will instead be all grey. :D

Since there are humans on screens, does that mean it's a kinda prequel?

 

[Michael Faragher]

I'm Mike, and if you're talking the Ludum Dare entry, I wrote and coded that. Otherwise unless you read my book on insurgency doctrine, you probably haven't heard of me. Currently working with Victor on two projects, including Trenchmouth.

 

[Blackthorne]

Hey! Thank you SO much!!! I will definitely DM you! I have a lot of ideas about how I'd go about it, but I'm out of my depth here definitely.

Seriously, please do. I love your games, and if I can help you bring another one to life, I would love to be able to help.

 

[zeitgeist]

Is graphical style somewhat settled or are you expecting it will change slightly? I ask because face of that girl from that main picture in my opinion looks like it was made in different style, compared to portraits of that nurse and soldier.

That would be because those are traced.

 

[Victor Pflug]

Is graphical style somewhat settled or are you expecting it will change slightly? I ask because face of that girl from that main picture in my opinion looks like it was made in different style, compared to portraits of that nurse and soldier.

That would be because those are traced.

The fact that you could immediately see that is turbo-autism at its finest. I know I’ve seen those photos, but I never would have been able to recognize it. Victor Pflug you’re going to want to explicitly address the tracing in a crowd-funding campaign or you might walk ass-backwards into controversy. The art itself looks great, so I think you can easily sell it as an adherence to “alt-historicity”. I would still be cautious about taking inspiration from any image that features a swastika though; obviously no sane person will accuse you of being a Nazi for it, but we don’t live in a very sane world, and from what I understand crowd-funding campaigns tend to amplify the craziest voices.

WHOA!

Let me tell you about this amazing game you obviously haven't heard of; it's called Arcanum - check it out!

 

[Victor Pflug]

Also pls don't post swastikas in this thread! Yes that was a picture reference - without the swastika it's just a hat.

 

[zeitgeist]

The fact that you could immediately see that is turbo-autism at its finest. I know I’ve seen those photos, but I never would have been able to recognize it.

I didn't really want to focus on the uniformed soldiers and such because that could pass as "historical inspiration" but those are blatantly traced too, down to every single detail and the pose. Here's the stormtrooper for example, stolen 1:1 from this miniature:

Makes me wonder what percentage of art from this guy's previous work is actually his. Probably not nearly as much as people have been led to believe.

 

[Michael Faragher]

It's just one person. They don't think references like this are kosher. It happens. We've had plenty of good feedback and kind words, even offers of help here. I get it's frustrating when someone swings in and starts ignoring multiple games of art and animation because of concept art made six years before you started putting code down, but let's not paint the entire board badly because of one person.

 

[Victor Pflug]

I mean zeitgeist you've heard of a thing called a drawing mannequin, right? I mean it's not complicated stuff. Old master gridded their work to... *sigh* "trace" images. This is why the camera obscua was invented. Google search camera obscura.

Google Arcanum.

Google search drawing mannequin. This is how artwork is drawn. Can you stop being quite such an asshole please? Really don't want this thread going off the rails.

I'd also really appreciate you taking down the nazi imagery.

My granpda fought against those pricks and I don't really need to be seeing that junk anywhere near my work.

 

[fork]

I'd also really appreciate you taking down the nazi imagery.

My granpda fought against those pricks and I don't really need to be seeing that junk anywhere near my work.

Tracing is wide-spread, who cares.
But why ask for the source to be taken down? Don't use it if you're scared of the faggerino lynch-mobs.
Nobody cares about your grandpa either, btw.

 

[Jenkem]

do you even need kickstarter these days? slap a demo on steam, call it early access and charge people money for it.

 

[Victor Pflug]

I dunno... If you wanna call stuff like this "tracing"... I think that's just a bit of a stretch of the imagination honestly. You're pushing that word places it was never meant to go.