Why couldn't Obsidian make a commercially successful isometric RPG like Larian?

[luj1]

Outer Worlds is already MORE mainstream than D:OS, in terms of design. It's just a shit game that isn't fun even to majority of normies.

Hold on brother, you're gonna upset Roguey

 

[Butter]

As much as I don't care for the Original Sin games, it seems obvious that Swen's goal was "Fun first", which is about as far as possible from Sawyer's goal "Balance first". Is it any wonder that one franchise sold dramatically better than the other?

 

[LanciaArdita]

I believe it's due to Obsidian's game philosophy of trying to please everyone, and then ending up disappointing all the demographics it targeted. Rolefags complained about obnoxious purple prose, rollfags disliked the "balance", non-pozzed gamers complained about the pos while for the alphabet crowd there was too little of it and so forth.

Swen made it clear from day one that his game was not meant to be a love letter to the old IE crowd, (despite words to the contrary, one could clearly see what kind of writers he employed) but instead it attracted the established D:OS barrelmancy crowd plus giggling and woke female liberal arts graduates. The latter might have had a very rough idea of the ancient IE games, and that certainly added an aura of mysticism and allure to the sequel, but otherwise they are absolutely newcomers.

Also Sawyer comes off as an incredibly stubborn, obstinate and recalcitrant individual judging by his long winded whining videos posted on youtube when commenting the lack of commercial success of pillows. Swen seems like the complete opposite in this regard.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

the truth is that people will put-up with downright dogshit gameplay if the story is engaging enough.

Ergo PST

mindless trash combat, but great style, unforgettable atmosphere and story

You could be right here. But the opposite is also true (Diablo II, PoE)

Diablo 2 doesn't have a bad story, just a simple one. But cosnidering how many people put-up with League of Legends and such you're probably correct.

 

[luj1]

it seems obvious that Swen's goal was "Fun first", which is about as far as possible from Sawyer's goal "Balance first"

and that's all there is to it

/thread

 

[luj1]

Also Sawyer comes off as an incredibly stubborn, obstinate and recalcitrant individual judging by his long winded whining videos posted on youtube when commenting the lack of commercial success of pillows

He is known for only blaming things he claims he didn't have control over. Such as RTwP or ship combat. And none of the things he had direct control over (core system design, accessibility). Which are things that actually broke the game.

 

[Infinitron]

As much as I don't care for the Original Sin games, it seems obvious that Swen's goal was "Fun first", which is about as far as possible from Sawyer's goal "Balance first". Is it any wonder that one franchise sold dramatically better than the other?

Here's how I would phrase that: Swen's goal was "fun first". Sawyer's goal wasn't "fun first". That's all you need to say. Getting deep into the discussion about "balance" isn't really necessary.

 

[Butter]

As much as I don't care for the Original Sin games, it seems obvious that Swen's goal was "Fun first", which is about as far as possible from Sawyer's goal "Balance first". Is it any wonder that one franchise sold dramatically better than the other?

Here's how I would phrase that: Swen's goal was "fun first". Sawyer's goal wasn't "fun first". That's all you need to say. Getting deep into the discussion about "balance" isn't really necessary.

AAA developers typically go "Presentation first". Old Obsidian would've gone with "Story first". Sawyer's instinct was to prioritize something almost no one actually cares about. Balance doesn't excite players and it doesn't move copies of your game.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer's instinct was to prioritize something almost no one actually cares about. Balance doesn't excite players and it doesn't move copies of your game.

People having fun with the character concepts they want to make is what they find enjoyable about RPGs though.

 

[Butter]

Sawyer's instinct was to prioritize something almost no one actually cares about. Balance doesn't excite players and it doesn't move copies of your game.

People having fun with the character concepts they want to make is what they find enjoyable about RPGs though.

What you're describing is robust character systems that allow you to build wildly different characters that then approach the game's content in wildly different ways. Balance autism is no guarantee of that, and a game like Arcanum proves you don't need it.

 

[Roguey]

Balance autism is no guarantee of that, and a game like Arcanum proves you don't need it.

Arcanum was really awful to play. I had a lot more fun with Pillars (and so did Chris Avellone [but not by much]).

 

[Beans00]

Obsidian has 1 major problem: Almost all their games suck, and almost all their employees suck.

 

[luj1]

Here's how I would phrase that: Swen's goal was "fun first". Sawyer's goal wasn't "fun first". That's all you need to say. Getting deep into the discussion about "balance" isn't really necessary.

Shameless Shill x 1

People having fun with the character concepts they want to make is what they find enjoyable about RPGs though.

Yes of course. Soyer believed that too. Everyone should have the freedom to pursue whatever style they want, without suffering the consequences of it. Exactly what killed Pillars, bravo.

Also,

Spoiler

Shameless Shill x 1

 

[Desiderius]

Swen likes people, Soyer doesn't.

 

[AwesomeButton]

According to you and Roguey, their whole career is "forced" and "not their fault"

"I hope it’s not like outer worlds"

I'm starting a betting pool. Which family member is missing at the start of the game? My money's on twin sister.

I'm starting another betting pool: "Whose fault will it be when Avowed flops?" A few lukewarm reviews, bought by MS' marketing budget. Game is ignored by players. A couple of youtubers making Let's Plays, before its being largely forgotten.

Arcanum was really awful to play. I had a lot more fun with Pillars

Are statements like these that get you a moderator status here?

 

[LanciaArdita]

He is known for only blaming things he claims he didn't have control over. Such as RTwP or ship combat. And none of the things he had direct control over (core system design, accessibility). Which are things that actually broke the game.

He had no control over core system design in a game that he directed and was senior developer of? I'm sorry but that kind of whitewashing about personal negligence does not sit very well with me.

Mind you it wasn't just individual, isolated game mechanisms that were flawed, but entire interactions between systems. For example in-combat buffs were handled quite obtusely, but that could have semi-worked if the first game included TB, since in TB the player would have more precise control over the characters to offset the restrictive action economy imposed by the mandatory in-combat buffs. Conversely, inclusion of 5e-like and 3.5e-like elements would have helped RTwP, since 5e relegated some of the buffs to toggle outside of combat (concentration) and both 5e ane 3.5 had metamagic that would allow casting 2x spells in a single turn (or within 6 seconds).

Pillars obviously had none of that because Sawyer went for an extremely dumbed down, feat starved version of 3.5 as his ruleset.

Supposedly, according to his 2023 interview, his KS DnD veteran backers are to blame for this.

But I'm having a hard time imagining DnD veterans lobbying for a system where skill choice didn't matter, you can't go wrong with feat selection, and attribute range of variation is severely amputated.

 

[luj1]

Sawyer went for an extremely dumbed down, feat starved version of 3.5

It had a lot of garbage from 4ED too (the worst bits of it)

Contrary to the popular meme, Soyer is not a posterboy of balance. He is the posterboy of accessibility. Uncompromising, autistic accessibility for everyone and everything. Probably something he carries from his PnP days.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Supposedly, according to his 2023 interview, his KS DnD veteran backers are to blame for this.

Typical. Toxic backward grognards held back PoE from being so much better

 

[StrongBelwas]

I'm starting another betting pool: "Whose fault will it be when Avowed flops?" A few lukewarm reviews, bought by MS' marketing budget. Game is ignored by players. A couple of youtubers making Let's Plays, before its being largely forgotten.

Eh, it will be on game pass, that alone probably guarantees some interest. Microsoft will put out a statement a few months out of release saying X millions of players (who knows how many get out of the first area) and they are so proud of Obsidian , the steam reviews will indicate mediocre sales on there, and then it will be on to the Outer Worlds 2 hype train.

 

[LanciaArdita]

It had a lot of garbage from 4ED too (the worst bits of it)

Contrary to the popular meme, Soyer is not a posterboy of balance. He is the posterboy of accessibility. Uncompromising, autistic accessibility for everyone and everything. Probably something he carries from his PnP days.

Yah, I can get behind that sentiment.

But as I've said he also comes off as extremely stubborn, because he refuses to recognize the concerns of the old school grognards.

Wonder if he'll ever get his wish of Microsoft funded PoE3. If that gets greenlit, he would lose the "KS backers made me do it" fallback line as excuse.

 

[LanciaArdita]

Supposedly, according to his 2023 interview, his KS DnD veteran backers are to blame for this.

Typical. Toxic backward grognards held back PoE from being so much better

I almost think he was hoping for the game to be a flop for the snarky and condescending remarks that he'd be permitted to make.

"What did I tell you, retards?"

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Sawyer's instinct was to prioritize something almost no one actually cares about. Balance doesn't excite players and it doesn't move copies of your game.

People having fun with the character concepts they want to make is what they find enjoyable about RPGs though.

Letting wizards fly around and reach places they otherwise wouldn't be able is more fun than just making sure that they are approximately as useful as any other party member.

 

[luj1]

It had a lot of garbage from 4ED too (the worst bits of it)

Contrary to the popular meme, Soyer is not a posterboy of balance. He is the posterboy of accessibility. Uncompromising, autistic accessibility for everyone and everything. Probably something he carries from his PnP days.

Yah, I can get behind that sentiment.

But as I've said he also comes off as extremely stubborn, because he refuses to recognize the concerns of the old school grognards.

Wonder if he'll ever get his wish of Microsoft funded PoE3. If that gets greenlit, he would lose the "KS backers made me do it" fallback line as excuse.

He just can't admit he's wrong

 

[AwesomeButton]

Yeah, publishers were a constraining factor way before backers took over.

 

[markec]

You're making a statement based on your own feelings.

Do you have the data handy on the number of Fig backers for Deadfire? Let's compare that to the KS campaign backers for PoE. Oh, wait, I know - "you can't compare those because KS is much more popular"

Fact: Deadfire was Fig's most successful campaign with regards to both money earned and number of backers. It's a large hurdle getting people to make an account on another website when one like it already exists (the rival-to-Steam/Amazon problem).

Fact: Its easy to sell a funding opportunity to a sequel of financially successful game made by a renown developer. Especially when you are promised return to your investment.

Your argument is that PoE 2 sold like shit at release (because all the fans of PoE1 must of not known it existed) then magically the people who loved PoE1 bought it one day, because reasons?

I'm going by what Sawyer says, that a bunch of people over the years told him that they had no idea the game was out already or that it even existed. These would be the more casual fans, the ones you need to sell big numbers.

"Oh it's out, I didn't know!" It's a easier excuse then "That first game was horrible so I had no interest to play it."

Most of PoE1's sales came from kickstarter hype / promises of nostalgia and some pretty screenshots. The game was a turd and nobody was rushing to play turd 2 boogaloo. If PoE was the screaming success you claim, deadfire would of sold like hot pockets on release.

There's a big difference between screaming success and "pretty good." Remember Grimrock? Much-lauded successor to Dungeon Master, and then Grimrock 2 came out and everyone who played it said it was an across-the-board improvement, but it sold worse. That was the game that made "sequel fatigue" a popular term to throw around. D:OS 2 was notable for bucking that trend.

Many people buy into hype only to see the game is not to their interest. D:OS had enough of interesting and original things going for it that the fire of hype kept burning until the sequel even if little bit. Unlike PoE that had nothing going for it as nobody cared.