Development Info Pillars of Eternity II Q&A Stream #5

[Infinitron]

Tags: Aarik Dorobiala; J.E. Sawyer; Kazunori Aruga; Obsidian Entertainment; Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire

With the Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire crowdfunding campaign silently continuing for another month and a half, it looks like Josh Sawyer and the team have decided to keep on doing Q&A Twitch streams on a regular basis. The special guest on this Wednesday's stream was lead artist Kaz Aruga. There were a number of interesting art design-related questions, but the most noteworthy part of the stream was the first reveal of details on Deadfire's stealth and pickpocketing mechanics. The game's stealth system is going to be much more elaborate than its predecessor's, with vision cones and a hearing radius. The Commandos series appears to be an inspiration. You can read about that in Fereed's transcript on Reddit if you don't want to watch the stream:

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Obsidian released a brief Fig update on Tuesday announcing that the Deadfire campaign was at around $4,58M of funding. They'll be transferring all of the Fig pledge data to their backer portal next week, at which point it will be possible to upgrade those pledges, so maybe it won't take long to reach the next stretch goal after that. In the meantime though, our own fundraiser is in its last two days. Can we reach $2,750?

 

[jewboy]

But basically the combat is still going to be a 100% fun- free experience where fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance and Logic? I mean they aren't planning to try to fix the combat system for the backers who didn't like it? I wish Sawyer's dream of an ideal combat system had resulted in interesting combat, but it didn't. It resulted in boring combat that should be entirely dumped and replaced with something else. Hell they have Tim Cain. They could just replace it with TOEE combat and focus the rest of their efforts on story.

 

[Pineapple Ferguson]

Yup. Pillars would have actually been pretty fucking great with a solid turn-based combat engine.

Oh, and less trash mobs.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Sorry, but TC is too busy being dressed as a french maid baking pies and doing other chores. I just hope he cums and spits in there for the rest of the crew.

 

[waveplay]

But basically the combat is still going to be a 100% fun- free experience where fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance and Logic? I mean they aren't planning to try to fix the combat system for the backers who didn't like it? I wish Sawyer's dream of an ideal combat system had resulted in interesting combat, but it didn't. It resulted in boring combat that should be entirely dumped and replaced with something else. Hell they have Tim Cain. They could just replace it with TOEE combat and focus the rest of their efforts on story.

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

 

[M0RBUS]

Yup. Pillars would have actually been pretty fucking great with a solid turn-based combat engine.

Oh, and less trash mobs.

I totally agree with this, but, to be honest, any game would be pretty fucking great with a solid turn-based combat engine

 

[Volrath]

But basically the combat is still going to be a 100% fun- free experience where fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance and Logic? I mean they aren't planning to try to fix the combat system for the backers who didn't like it? I wish Sawyer's dream of an ideal combat system had resulted in interesting combat, but it didn't. It resulted in boring combat that should be entirely dumped and replaced with something else. Hell they have Tim Cain. They could just replace it with TOEE combat and focus the rest of their efforts on story.

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

It's utter shit compared to Baldur's Gate 2.

 

[ArchAngel]

But basically the combat is still going to be a 100% fun- free experience where fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance and Logic? I mean they aren't planning to try to fix the combat system for the backers who didn't like it? I wish Sawyer's dream of an ideal combat system had resulted in interesting combat, but it didn't. It resulted in boring combat that should be entirely dumped and replaced with something else. Hell they have Tim Cain. They could just replace it with TOEE combat and focus the rest of their efforts on story.

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

Lead designer.

 

[jewboy]

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

If you haven't played ToEE then go play it. Also if you haven't tried BG2 with the Sword Coast Strategems mod go play that as well. Note the differences. I had a detailed analysis of all the 'problems' and how I would at least start fixing them at the time PoE was released, but I don't remember the details now. I just remember trying again and again and again to like the combat but just finding it irredeemably dull even after searching in vain for workarounds.

I am assuming the difference here is a generation gap and that you just haven't played many better games. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am going to try AoD soon and replay ToEE and maybe IWD2. What games have combat that you like so much that you replay the game for it? Note that I don't even consider IWD2 to be a good game. It's just the combat is fun for a while and a change of pace from IWD1 and BG2ToB+SCS. I'm not sure what the essence of the difference is between the combat in games like that and newer games like PoE but there certainly is a difference and I don't like it.

More and more I'm starting to think in terms of generational differences in gaming preferences more than 'good' or 'bad' games per se. Maybe old/ancient gamers like me just prefer a different sort of experience to ones for whom Dragon Age is old school, but I don't really know. Maybe I can take lessons and learn to embrace and enjoy the new style of gaming. I wish someone could teach me to find some fun in PoE combat. What is your secret? I am willing to learn.

 

[vivec]

Yup. Pillars would have actually been pretty fucking great with a solid turn-based combat engine.

Oh, and less trash mobs.

Not so sure of that. I was not impressed with the story or the setting or the writing either. However it is a very pretty game and that says a lot for distraction.

 

[waveplay]

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

If you haven't played ToEE then go play it. Also if you haven't tried BG2 with the Sword Coast Strategems mod go play that as well. Note the differences. I had a detailed analysis of all the 'problems' and how I would at least start fixing them at the time PoE was released, but I don't remember the details now. I just remember trying again and again and again to like the combat but just finding it irredeemably dull even after searching in vain for workarounds.

I am assuming the difference here is a generation gap and that you just haven't played many better games. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am going to try AoD soon and replay ToEE and maybe IWD2. What games have combat that you like so much that you replay the game for it? Note that I don't even consider IWD2 to be a good game. It's just the combat is fun for a while and a change of pace from IWD1 and BG2ToB+SCS. I'm not sure what the essence of the difference is between the combat in games like that and newer games like PoE but there certainly is a difference and I don't like it.

More and more I'm starting to think in terms of generational differences in gaming preferences more than 'good' or 'bad' games per se. Maybe old/ancient gamers like me just prefer a different sort of experience to ones for whom Dragon Age is old school, but I don't really know. Maybe I can take lessons and learn to embrace and enjoy the new style of gaming. I wish someone could teach me to find some fun in PoE combat. What is your secret? I am willing to learn.

So, first off about me: combat isn't really what I play RPG's for, though it is important that it isn't actively terrible. If it makes me think tactically and strategically that's all I pretty much want, but I'm not inclined to go number-crunching and delve deeply into min-maxing. I guess for me it's more about that combat positively impacts pace, meaning that it isn't so easy as to feel inconsequential, but also not so hard or slow as to make me impatient. For that, Pillars feels right to me (on normal difficulty). I get to make tactical decisions (what skill to use, what status effect to impose, what position to take, etc) on a regular basis, but I'm rarely actually stuck in a fight. It feels satisfying to win battles thanks to making the right call, but I play from intuition mostly.

I tried to play ToEE exactly once, got my ass handed to me and believed that this is a game for people who actually play table-top D&D.

Anyway, I played BG1 + BG2 (enhanced editions) just last year, on the normal difficulty. I'm old enough to have played the Infinity Engine games when they were released, but again, it's never been about the combat for me. I guess Pillars' combat doesn't stand up on its own the deeper you get into it? I'm just really enjoying the whole party-of-adventures-running-around-beautiful-isometric-prerendered-landscapes-enjoying-the-world-building aspect of it all.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not hard to figure out. Do you enjoy lining up your dudes in proper formation and having to click lots of active ability buttons to efficiently dispatch groups of Xaurips? Does that make you feel more active, more engaged, more in control than simply watching them be massacred with auto-attacks and maybe a single strategic cast of a spell? If so, you'll like PoE's combat. Do you find all of that incredibly tedious? Then you'll hate it.

It's got nothing to do with balance and most people who say they don't like PoE combat because of "Josh Sawyer over-balance" don't know what they're talking about. It's not balance, it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

 

[Cosmo]

it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

Tru dat ; i only began to enjoy myself when i decided to abandon my IE-style preconceptions and started developping my little people as gears and cogs, functioning together but individually performing very definite and different roles...

 

[waveplay]

it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

Tru dat ; i only began to enjoy myself when i decided to abandon my IE-style preconceptions and started developping my little people as gears and cogs, functioning together but individually performing very definite and different roles...

Yeah that's what I found coming to Pillars shortly after finishing up BG2. They look very similar at a glance but Pillars is really its own thing.

 

[jewboy]

Well it did seem that Sawyer was completely obsessed with balancing/nerfing and making every conceivable character build just as effective as any other. As for why I did not like the combat I guess I'll have to try another play to remember what I didn't like. There were some specific things I found really annoying. I remember that much. If Obsidian could fix some of them I might find the combat at least endurable, but it doesn't sound like they are going to change anything so fuck em. Those of you who enjoy Sawyer-combat will continue to enjoy it. I don't.

 

[Iznaliu]

Also if you haven't tried BG2 with the Sword Coast Strategems mod go play that as well

We are comparing vanilla game to vanilla game here

I tried to play ToEE exactly once, got my ass handed to me and believed that this is a game for people who actually play table-top D&D.

Tabletop is not some sort of hardcore mythical thing; in fact it is often more lenient than the computer

 

[vivec]

It's not hard to figure out. Do you enjoy lining up your dudes in proper formation and having to click lots of active ability buttons to efficiently dispatch groups of Xaurips? Does that make you feel more active, more engaged, more in control than simply watching them be massacred with auto-attacks and maybe a single strategic cast of a spell? If so, you'll like PoE's combat. Do you find all of that incredibly tedious? Then you'll hate it.

It's got nothing to do with balance and most people who say they don't like PoE combat because of "Josh Sawyer over-balance" don't know what they're talking about. It's not balance, it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

Why have xaurip like encounters in the first place. FFS.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Why have xaurip like encounters in the first place. FFS.

Because making a game with few but meticulously designed encounters which you can approach from many angles and utilise a wide variety of tactics is actually challenging

NuTorment?

 

[HoboForEternity]

is thus on youtube yet?

 

[Iznaliu]

Why have xaurip like encounters in the first place. FFS.

BG, IWD, etc. absolutely had trash encounters. Trash encounters are also actually good within reason as it makes all of the bosses and special encounters more meaningful.

 

[Tigranes]

It's not hard to figure out. Do you enjoy lining up your dudes in proper formation and having to click lots of active ability buttons to efficiently dispatch groups of Xaurips? Does that make you feel more active, more engaged, more in control than simply watching them be massacred with auto-attacks and maybe a single strategic cast of a spell? If so, you'll like PoE's combat. Do you find all of that incredibly tedious? Then you'll hate it.

It's got nothing to do with balance and most people who say they don't like PoE combat because of "Josh Sawyer over-balance" don't know what they're talking about. It's not balance, it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

Where did you make this up from? BG2 has tons of trash mob encounters like POE, and if we compare Core Vanilla BG2 to Normal/Hard POE then it doesn't take that much longer to just smash. The only places where we get a 'different paradigm' is between things like how IE games treat space vs. POE.

For many Codexers POE had to pass two tests - (1) many Codexers don't actually enjoy RTwP combat, and for some reason still play RTwP games; (2) many Codexers who do enjoy RTwP combat were for obvious reasons fond of IE combat's rhythm and groove, and POE for better or worse often deviated from this. And on top of that (3) BG2 had the added advantage of relying on many players' prior familiarity with D&D, of being a improbably comprehensive game, and of later mod additions like SCS. So POE always had it tough going to beat BG2 in terms of how many Codexers enjoyed its combat, even if it was amazing in all aspects - which it most certainly was not.

 

[ArchAngel]

It's not hard to figure out. Do you enjoy lining up your dudes in proper formation and having to click lots of active ability buttons to efficiently dispatch groups of Xaurips? Does that make you feel more active, more engaged, more in control than simply watching them be massacred with auto-attacks and maybe a single strategic cast of a spell? If so, you'll like PoE's combat. Do you find all of that incredibly tedious? Then you'll hate it.

It's got nothing to do with balance and most people who say they don't like PoE combat because of "Josh Sawyer over-balance" don't know what they're talking about. It's not balance, it's simply a different RTwP combat paradigm.

Where did you make this up from? BG2 has tons of trash mob encounters like POE, and if we compare Core Vanilla BG2 to Normal/Hard POE then it doesn't take that much longer to just smash. The only places where we get a 'different paradigm' is between things like how IE games treat space vs. POE.

For many Codexers POE had to pass two tests - (1) many Codexers don't actually enjoy RTwP combat, and for some reason still play RTwP games; (2) many Codexers who do enjoy RTwP combat were for obvious reasons fond of IE combat's rhythm and groove, and POE for better or worse often deviated from this. And on top of that (3) BG2 had the added advantage of relying on many players' prior familiarity with D&D, of being a improbably comprehensive game, and of later mod additions like SCS. So POE always had it tough going to beat BG2 in terms of how many Codexers enjoyed its combat, even if it was amazing in all aspects - which it most certainly was not.

For me it didn't even beat BG1. And I expected more after 18 years of technology and knowledge. They could not even fix pathfinding in combat or fucking loading times.

 

[Tigranes]

Go away, adults are talking and not "DO YOU HATE [GAME] DO YOU DO YOU COS I HATE IT [THIS] MUCH"

 

[Infinitron]

(2) many Codexers who do enjoy RTwP combat were for obvious reasons fond of IE combat's rhythm and groove, and POE for better or worse often deviated from this.

I think that's basically what I said.

 

[ArchAngel]

Go away, adults are talking and not "DO YOU HATE [GAME] DO YOU DO YOU COS I HATE IT [THIS] MUCH"

I don't expect more from a guy that is a Obsidian boards mod.