Development Info Pillars of Eternity II Q&A Stream #5

[vivec]

Why have xaurip like encounters in the first place. FFS.

BG, IWD, etc. absolutely had trash encounters. Trash encounters are also actually good within reason as it makes all of the bosses and special encounters more meaningful.

You people are the cancer plaguing the cRPGs.

 

[Iznaliu]

You people are the cancer plaguing the cRPGs.

Look how well "no trash encounters" worked for T:ToN

I don't expect more from a guy that is a Obsidian boards mod.

Go back to eating gold paint, ArchAngel.

 

[vivec]

You people are the cancer plaguing the cRPGs.

Look how well "no trash encounters" worked for T:ToN

What has that to do with anything?

 

[Lady_Error]

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

The only thing that is still subpar in Pillars combat is the magic system. I want epic mage fights like in BG1+2, that was one of the most enjoyable aspects of those games. I guess the big difference are hard counters and more powerful and "less balanced" magic spells.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I'm currently playing (and enjoying) Pillars. What's the big criticism against its combat system? I guess it's not earthshatteringly amazing or anything, but I find it satisfying and I like that different builds are viable. How is it fun-free and what should they change in your eyes to make it fun then?

The only thing that is still subpar in Pillars combat is the magic system. I want epic mage fights like in BG1+2, that was one of the most enjoyable aspects of those games. I guess the big difference are hard counters and more powerful and "less balanced" magic spells.

Yeah and additionally I would like meaningful character stats and interesting classes, but:

...if dreams were eagles I would fly
But they ain't and that's the reason why.
Seven tears have flown into the river...

 

[Lady_Error]

Yeah and additionally I would like meaningful character stats and interesting classes

The classes are fine. In fact, things like Cyphers, Rangers with pets or Drake-spamming Chanters are better than the classes in most other RPG's.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Yeah and additionally I would like meaningful character stats and interesting classes

The classes are fine. In fact, things like Cyphers, Rangers with pets or Drake-spamming Chanters are better than the classes in most other RPG's.

With self healing and other stuff? Oh, please. Magic users need a complete overhaul... And that +0.005% increased DMG bulshit and monk skills and items. Oh ffs...

 

[Volourn]

PE just isn't as fun as BG. And, it says a lot considering the lack of option of BG's dumbed down 2E game system. People blame 2E for BG's lack of non combat skills but that is bullshit. 2E HAS its own version of non combat skills. They are called secondary skills and non weapon proficiencies. And, they are right in the PHB. It's funny that BIO had no problem adding kids (which are found in optional 2E rulebooks) but not actual material found in the 3 basic books. LMAO

 

[Jazz_]

Baldur's Gate 2 is childish crap, all the npcs are pure saccarine cancer, I would rather replay POE than replaying BG, and I thought POE was mediocre, didn't even finish it in fact. The combat in BG is better but that's about it.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Baldur's Gate 2 is childish crap, all the npcs are pure saccarine cancer, I would rather replay POE than replaying BG, and I thought POE was mediocre, didn't even finish it in fact. The combat in BG is better but that's about it.

But you finished BG 1 -2?
Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but not to his own facts.

 

[vivec]

PE just isn't as fun as BG. And, it says a lot considering the lack of option of BG's dumbed down 2E game system. People blame 2E for BG's lack of non combat skills but that is bullshit. 2E HAS its own version of non combat skills. They are called secondary skills and non weapon proficiencies. And, they are right in the PHB. It's funny that BIO had no problem adding kids (which are found in optional 2E rulebooks) but not actual material found in the 3 basic books. LMAO

3.5 e > 3 e > 2.x e

3.5 e actually makes skill use outside of combat interesting. The fatal flaw always is that Spellcasters can fly and others can not so they are screwed and that's just ONE fatal flaw. 5.e fixes that a bit, but at the cost of oversimplifying the game slightly. I miss the ginormous lists of feats .

 

[Volourn]

2E is as good as 3e. 3.5 is 3E. Don't make it like it is a different edition when it isn't. 23 has non combat skills. You must be one of the morans that thing PC RPG versions of 2E = pnp 2E when it isn't.

 

[vivec]

2E is as good as 3e. 3.5 is 3E. Don't make it like it is a different edition when it isn't. 23 has non combat skills. You must be one of the morans that thing PC RPG versions of 2E = pnp 2E when it isn't.

2e does not have as many skills and they are not as detailed. If you read what I wrote carefully you will see that.

The problem with 3 e was that it was borked due to lack of balance. 3.5 was a genuine improvement on the feats and spells of 3e.

 

[Volourn]

Look at that! A retart named Vivec has posted bullshitz and thinks its factz. LMAO You better do your research better.

Any moran who thinks that 3.5 is a different version of 3E is a moran. They're the same fukkin' version of D&d. holy fukkz.

 

[Lady_Error]

Yeah and additionally I would like meaningful character stats and interesting classes

The classes are fine. In fact, things like Cyphers, Rangers with pets or Drake-spamming Chanters are better than the classes in most other RPG's.

With self healing and other stuff? Oh, please. Magic users need a complete overhaul... And that +0.005% increased DMG bulshit and monk skills and items. Oh ffs...

The magic system needs an overhaul and this means only the magic user classes need changes. The rest are fine as they are.

And I guess you still haven't figured out the difference between Health and Endurance in POE? I thought it's a good system.

 

[vivec]

Look at that! A retart named Vivec has posted bullshitz and thinks its factz. LMAO You better do your research better.

Any moran who thinks that 3.5 is a different version of 3E is a moran. They're the same fukkin' version of D&d. holy fukkz.

Is he always like this? Can you show me where I said 3.5 is a *different* version? Can you even read?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sugarcoat it all you want, but PoE's combat pacing is very bad, hugely inferior to the IE games. That's why Josh has announced they are revising it. It took him a year to admit it, but I guess a fault is half redressed. After even the lead designer himself has commented on it being a drawback, the fanboyish throes "it's not bad, it's different"/"you will like it if..." are deeply moving to behold. Reminds me of how PoE was just such a great game at release, and then got 9 patches, which made it... perfecter?

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

The level of painful bleeding butthurt that PoE induces, in both its supporters and its detractors, two years after its release, is stunning. It's the fuel that has powered the Codex over the last two years and it will probably be the fuel that powers it until...PoE2's beta gets released.

 

[Morality Games]

Sugarcoat it all you want, but PoE's combat pacing is very bad, hugely inferior to the IE games. That's why Josh has announced they are revising it. It took him a year to admit it, but I guess a fault is half redressed. After even the lead designer himself has commented on it being a drawback, the fanboyish throes "it's not bad, it's different"/"you will like it if..." are deeply moving to behold. Reminds me of how PoE was just such a great game at release, and then got 9 patches, which made it... perfecter?

I mean, the guy is an employee of a company that is selling the game he made. He always has to speak positively of every single design decision without reserve both because of self interest and also because of contractual obligations.

For example, Shia Labeuof has nearly gotten blacklisted in Hollywood because of speaking badly of films he has made when he was supposed to be up selling them. One of the main reasons he isn't the star of the Transformer films anymore.

 

[Lady_Error]

Yeah, Shia has come along away after starring in Indiana Jones and Transformers...

 

[Zero Credibility]

Drama surrounding PoE was and is better than the game itself. As for combat, yeah, it was a disappointment (just like the rest of the game). Part of it was the rote it deteriorated to far, far too often due to combination of engagement, per encounter abilities, health/endurance mechanics, crappy magical defenses and so on. But also it was how much of a mess it always looked like when abilities and magic started flying, with light shows obscuring everything on the screen, too fast pace, and various magical effects hitting everyones ass and leg to the point you just stop caring who is doing what to whom since most effects are weak and anyway last only a couple of second so why care about it, just unload more of your abilities on the enemy. It's nice that Sawyer has recognized some of these as problems and is planing on fixing them, but given that he created those problems in the first place I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

 

[l3loodAngel]

For example, Shia Labeuof has nearly gotten blacklisted in Hollywood because of speaking badly of films he has made when he was supposed to be up selling them. One of the main reasons he isn't the star of the Transformer films anymore.

He and his performance will be sorely missed in Transfomers and beyond. At least now he can wear a pussy hat freely.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Sugarcoat it all you want, but PoE's combat pacing is very bad, hugely inferior to the IE games. That's why Josh has announced they are revising it. It took him a year to admit it, but I guess a fault is half redressed. After even the lead designer himself has commented on it being a drawback, the fanboyish throes "it's not bad, it's different"/"you will like it if..." are deeply moving to behold. Reminds me of how PoE was just such a great game at release, and then got 9 patches, which made it... perfecter?

Isn't he "admitting he's wrong" in the sense that PoE was still too IE-like in terms of pacing in his view and that they're moving all-out in the direction of per-encounter abilities for PoE2?

 

[jewboy]

I've noticed that over the years the codex has been divided into two warring factions. One did not really even exist when I first started posting here (2005 IIRC). Or at least the numbers were so low you could count active posters on the fingers of one hand. Of course I am talking about the people who love Dragon Age and Skyrim and all of the other causal popamole action-RPGs that are all about non-stop action and little to no thought. No time for thought because...ACTION. These people seem to hate micromanagement and any combat encounter that takes more than a few minutes to resolve.

I don't think any game with dragonage-ish combat would have been acknowledged as even worth discussing in 2005. It would have been dismissed out of hand by most as I still think it deserves to be. I consider myself a part of the MicroManager faction. I like to micromanage my party. I like to make every single decision that might affect the outcome of the fight and I like my decisions to matter in the sense that there are many fights where if you just let your party autoattack you will all die most of the time. Every significant encounter (and most should be significant) should require thoughtful micromanagement in order to win. More Battlechess than Streetfighter.

It is true that basically any form of real time combat tends not to qualify even if you can pause the game. The IE games were a bit of an exception just because the autopause at the end of every round and at various other points did a pretty good job of mimicking a turn based style. The autopause system wasn't just tacked on as an afterthought. The whole system seemed to be designed for players who wanted to play that way. If that feature had been left out I don't think I would have liked any of the IE games except maybe PS:T. End of Round Autopause was absolutely critical.

I don't really understand the people who find all that decision making too tedious. For me watching little figures throwing fireballs and lighting bolts or swinging swords is not fun no matter how good the graphics are. I need to be part of the process or I may as well be watching someone else play. Because of this I always wonder at the inevitable complaining about party member AI in pretty much every party based cRPG. I never use it so I don't care how dumb it is. Even sentient level AI would take away the decision making from me.

The micromanagement issue might be the most important issue dividing the two factions but another one is The Right to Die. If my party is not getting utterly exterminated on a regular basis then the combat is not challenging. Period. Combat should be hard or maybe it shouldn't be there at all. I should have a sense of accomplishment after winning an encounter, and I won't have that unless I have already been killed trying to win it at least once even with careful micromanagement. IOW a battle should actually feel like a battle.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

I've noticed that over the years the codex has been divided into two warring factions. One did not really even exist when I first started posting here (2005 IIRC). Or at least the numbers were so low you could count active posters on the fingers of one hand. Of course I am talking about the people who love Dragon Age and Skyrim and all of the other causal popamole action-RPGs that are all about non-stop action and little to no thought. No time for thought because...ACTION. These people seem to hate micromanagement and any combat encounter that takes more than a few minutes to resolve.

I don't think any game with dragonage-ish combat would have been acknowledged as even worth discussing in 2005. It would have been dismissed out of hand by most as I still think it deserves to be. I consider myself a part of the MicroManager faction. I like to micromanage my party. I like to make every single decision that might affect the outcome of the fight and I like my decisions to matter in the sense that there are many fights where if you just let your party autoattack you will all die most of the time. Every significant encounter (and most should be significant) should require thoughtful micromanagement in order to win. More Battlechess than Streetfighter.

It is true that basically any form of real time combat tends not to qualify even if you can pause the game. The IE games were a bit of an exception just because the autopause at the end of every round and at various other points did a pretty good job of mimicking a turn based style. The autopause system wasn't just tacked on as an afterthought. The whole system seemed to be designed for players who wanted to play that way. If that feature had been left out I don't think I would have liked any of the IE games except maybe PS:T. End of Round Autopause was absolutely critical.

I don't really understand the people who find all that decision making too tedious. For me watching little figures throwing fireballs and lighting bolts or swinging swords is not fun no matter how good the graphics are. I need to be part of the process or I may as well be watching someone else play. Because of this I always wonder at the inevitable complaining about party member AI in pretty much every party based cRPG. I never use it so I don't care how dumb it is. Even sentient level AI would take away the decision making from me.

The micromanagement issue might be the most important issue dividing the two factions but another one is The Right to Die. If my party is not getting utterly exterminated on a regular basis then the combat is not challenging. Period. Combat should be hard or maybe it shouldn't be there at all. I should have a sense of accomplishment after winning an encounter, and I won't have that unless I have already been killed trying to win it at least once even with careful micromanagement. IOW a battle should actually feel like a battle.

The problem with that arguement is that the most important game, for better or for worse, to come out in the Codex-verse in the last decade, PoE, encourages turn-based levels of micromanagement and yet the two camps that have formed around that game do not fit neatly in the paradigm you've described.