Editorial The Ultimate CRPG by Glasnev and Bouravtsov

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Burut Creative Team

Yet another developer editorial on things they like and don't like in CRPGs these days, Dmitry Glasnev and Sergey Bouravtsov of Burut tackle the subject this time:

Moreover, such tendency of last years as mixing the genres has always given some exceptions from the definitions of computer role playing games to the most keen classifier. Besides, some gaming elements, without which good CRPG can't exist, can be defined. Our point of view is that it is, firstly, a worked out and debugged role system, freedom of player's actions, and the convenience of controls, a clear and natural interface. Those are the moments we'd like to dwell on.​

Yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine, all the damned RPG Hybrids watering down the genre.

 

[EEVIAC]

I was considering posting a thread about this, there are a few games that are now incorporating rpg elements without actually being rpg's. I thinks its derived from a misconstruance of why people play rpg's in the first place - that after long gameplay you develop uber-characters that can destroy the world in one hand. That might be part of it, but wouldn't the primary device of an rpg be the ability to play different and varied roles?

For all of Deus Ex's lauded rpg similarities, essentially your choice was limitted to what sort of killing machine you wanted to be, not whether you wanted to be a killing machine in the first place. You couldn't even decide whether you wanted to stick with the government for the game's duration.

 

[Sol Invictus]

FPS-RPGs aren't exactly hybrids or anything new to the genre, though. If I recall, there was a game called Ultima Underworld.

 

[Astromarine]

Apples and Oranges, in my opinion (no opinions on the Internet are ever humble).

I guess the real problem is that FPS and "action shooters" have come to mean the same thing, erroneously. FPRPGs are possible which are as much an RPG as Geneforge. Hell, EOTB was one So was Wizardry. So was Ultima Underworld.

Underworld was not an FPS/RPG Hybrid. It was a role playing game, with minor action elements (real time combat and a bit of *puke* puzzle jumping)

Deus Ex, on the other hand, was one, or attempted to be. Like Halflife before it, it was a shooter that concentrated on giving you a decent story, and make you feel like the character. It *tried* to change "character" into "characters" by allowing you to customize his skills and stuff, but not very successfully. It was WAY on the other side of the scale of UW.

It's, at heart, a confusing issue. All RPGs have action. Some have this action take place in real time. Some have this real-time action be determined by your mad skillz instead of the characters. NOW you start entering shady hybrid ground, but it's a *necessity* of first person play. I think the added "beingthereness" of the first person perspective offsets the added requirement of player dexterity, so I will happily still call games which allow character skills to influence the action RPGs, as long as the focus is on character development and freedom of movement and actions, NOT on combat or other action elements like Deus Ex or SS2.

astro

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I guess the real problem is that FPS and "action shooters" have come to mean the same thing, erroneously. FPRPGs are possible which are as much an RPG as Geneforge. Hell, EOTB was one So was Wizardry. So was Ultima Underworld.

EotB was more of a dungeon crawler, really. You just explored a maze and clicked the right buttons when it came time to fight something. Honestly, I find the GBA version much more tolerable simply because it switches to isometric combat like the other gold box games did.

Both Wizardry and EotB both suffer from the same problem, though. The combat isn't as tactical as it should be for a party based dungeon crawler. I actually like to be able to position my party members seperately, which EotB and Wizardry don't allow.

Honestly, if you like party based, first person, dungeon crawling games though, I highly recommend Demise: Rise of Ku'Tan. I don't typically like dungeon crawlers, but that one is fantastic.

Underworld was not an FPS/RPG Hybrid. It was a role playing game, with minor action elements (real time combat and a bit of *puke* puzzle jumping)

I tend to agree, UU spanks Dues Ex in terms of being a role playing game. Section 8 wrote a comparason of the two somewhere, which was pretty damned neat to read.

It's, at heart, a confusing issue. All RPGs have action. Some have this action take place in real time. Some have this real-time action be determined by your mad skillz instead of the characters. NOW you start entering shady hybrid ground, but it's a *necessity* of first person play. I think the added "beingthereness" of the first person perspective offsets the added requirement of player dexterity, so I will happily still call games which allow character skills to influence the action RPGs, as long as the focus is on character development and freedom of movement and actions, NOT on combat or other action elements like Deus Ex or SS2.

There's a number of issues with first perco combat in a CRPG, especially in real time. One of the big ones is the one you mentioned, the player's mad skillz overshadowing that of the character. However, there's the opposie problem of aiming a box right at a bad guy, with the crosshairs lined up on his fat little body and missing because of a skill role. That means you have the problem of a successful hit being the result of the player's mad skillz in addition to the character's skills. This makes it initially annoying because the character's skills most likely suck. However, after advancement of the character to uber-point, you just end up with the player's mad skillz.

Another problem I don't like about it is that melee is typically boring as shit. Typically trying to make it more interesting ends up in arcade gameplay, which also sucks.

 

[Astromarine]

Yup. Oddly enough, that's why I tend to prefer modern settings in firstpersoners. There is a lot more emphasis in ranged attacks, which *belong* in FP* games.

In modern setting, close combat tends to be relegated to finishing a stealth sequence. For example, in that trailer for VtM:B, the vampire approaching the guard from behind and attempting to drain him.

Hmm, now I mention it, VB is a game where the potential exists for a good FPRPG, finally. Stealth-based approaches to close quarters, followed by short-but-brutal action (neckbite or backstabbings), combined with long-range magical and weapons combat, seems like the style of game that was meant to go "I am FPRPG, hear me roar!"

Astro

 

[Section8]

This makes it initially annoying because the character's skills most likely suck. However, after advancement of the character to uber-point, you just end up with the player's mad skillz.

...and since the player has been using their skills to compensate for lack of character ability, when their character becomes good at something, you've got something akin to an inverse difficulty curve. That's one of the biggest advantages SS2's system has over DX's, is that it is outright prohibitive.

It's not a good thing generally, but in a FP/RPG hybrid, it works brilliantly. It serves as a strongly defined goal for the player to strive toward advancement wise, and it also distinguishes player skill from character skill in plain black and white.

I've never bothered to play Deus Ex after finishing it once. I'd already done most of what the gameplay offered, and as a whole it didn't interest me enough to explore all the subplots. System Shock 2 I've completed at least 5 times, and each time I've enjoyed a fairly different gaming experience to the last, even if the plot is essentially quite linear.

In modern setting, close combat tends to be relegated to finishing a stealth sequence.

I think melee combat in FPSs needs to be tied in with stealth regardless of setting. If it's action based melee, then the only skill required of the player is that they can walk up to face something. Aiming is basically unnecessary, and dodging is next to impossible. But give the player some shadows and a blackjack, and a whole world opens up to them.