Development Info H-World space game design doc posted

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: H-World

The <a href="http://h-world.simugraph.com/space/">space traveller</a> CRPG site using the <A href="http://h-world.simugraph.com/">H-World</a> engine has updated to include a <a href="http://h-world.simugraph.com/space/data/space.txt">draft of the ideas and goals</a> for the game, in text format so there's nothing to download, just read. Here's part I thought was interesting, the <i>career paths</i>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Core careers
<br>
------------
<br>
- Become an <b>explorer</b>: Gather data about solar systems and planets and sell that data. The better the data, the more money.
<br>
<br>
- Become a <b>trader</b>: the old story
<br>
<br>
- Become an <b>alien history/culture/technology scientist</b>: Research alien cities and space stations. Abandoned alien citeis mighte be full of treasures but also full of dangers. Find alien documents and artifacts. Again, sell the data to get more money. (alternative goal: get famous ?)
<br>
<br>
- Become a <b>miner</b>: once you found valuable resources, exploit them and sell the materials (mine by yourself? have robots that do the mining? visit the mines or just have abstract mines?)</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Lots of neat ideas there. I like the idea of <i>explorer</i> and <i>scientist</i> as careers.
<br>

 

[EEVIAC]

I like the idea of explorer and scientist as careers.

At the very least, this serves to show up how little thought was actually put into the game dynamics of Freelancer over its five years of development.

One aspect of Arcanum I enjoyed was how store keepers regarded you as you became more proficient in your chosen field. I worked hard just to stay alive as a Gunslinger, the small amount of respect I got in-game made it somewhat more worthwhile. The same dynamic could apply in this game, earning imperial honours with civilizations for documenting their history or exploring their boundaries.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, I like the idea. It sounds like a sci-fi version of Indiania Jones, really. Explore ruins of long dead civilizations, fraught with perils and other things, but instead of Mayans, you'd end up with some technologically advanced cultural ruin. It's got a lot of possibility.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah, I like the idea. It sounds like a sci-fi version of Indiania Jones, really. Explore ruins of long dead civilizations, fraught with perils and other things, but instead of Mayans, you'd end up with some technologically advanced cultural ruin. It's got a lot of possibility.

I thought of the Indiana Jones comparison as I was reading as well. What I really like about these "core careers" is that they all sound interesting, they all fit in and make sense in the setting, and they offer good, peaceful, and long overdue alternatives to trading.

 

[EEVIAC]

Something else I'd like to see implemented - a reasonably long but limited game time. Expanding from my previous idea, if one were to work in studying one civilization, developing a reputation in that one system (or group of), this would take time, a lifetime even. (Alternately, the player could system hop and take shorter, easier adventures, without gaining the reputation, but making a lot of money.) At some point, the player retires and gets a "grade" Pirates! style. It would add to replayability, and also give the game a hard-limit-finish, without resorting to we-don't-have-any-more-story, game over.

 

[Hajo]

Something else I'd like to see implemented - a reasonably long but limited game time.

In terms of hours to play, how long would you think is a good game time?

Also, the player could choose at the start if he wants to play only a certain number of hours, or an infinite 'playground' style game.

 

[EEVIAC]

In terms of hours to play, how long would you think is a good game time?

For me, between 10 and 20 hours (about how long a person will spend on a weekend.) Actual game time or character life could be determined by exposure to harsh elements/radiation (which could also prolong life,) time spent in prison for smuggling, etc - I'm not sure how Pirates! worked out game time but it took those sorts of variables into account.

Also, the player could choose at the start if he wants to play only a certain number of hours, or an infinite 'playground' style game.

I had an idea about how to circumvent the boundaries of my limited time idea - Generations. At the end of a game, after the rating, you could be allowed to continue your game with a new character, who is basically your progeny, boy or girl. I'm not sure what sort of rules would apply but I'm thinking 1/3 original character skills (because of the age, and the fact that the son of an adventurer would most likely be educated,) with one artifact passed down as an heirloom, or a happy-start-of-adventuring gift, or whatever.

The idea of generations could expand gameplay options. Half races (alien/human) would have aptitude in understanding two cultures. They would be able to to do things the parent would not. Also through generations, the unlimited time game could be played out, without turning the player character into some kind of universal warlord.

It would also lend a tremendous amount of replayability.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Moving off toipic slightly.

For me, between 10 and 20 hours (about how long a person will spend on a weekend.) Actual game time or character life could be determined by exposure to harsh elements/radiation (which could also prolong life,) time spent in prison for smuggling, etc - I'm not sure how Pirates! worked out game time but it took those sorts of variables into account.

Eesh. Anything I can top in 10 hours (one day) is waaay to short for my liking. I prefer games around the 40 hour mark. Or open ended games where you can keep playing them over and over again (Civilization, Cutthroats, Driver, Sim City etc...)

 

[Hajo]

I had an idea about how to circumvent the boundaries of my limited time idea - Generations. At the end of a game, after the rating, you could be allowed to continue your game with a new character, who is basically your progeny, boy or girl.

I like this idea. But there might be some 'technical' problems. You'll need to get married in thegame to have children, and most likely this will cause a lot of troubles

In another forum here, there was a thread about romances in RPGs. The opinions were heavily divided on that topic.

OTOH a sci-fi game could easily allow yourself to get cloned ... but somehow this wouldn't be quite the same.

The idea of generations could expand gameplay options. Half races (alien/human) would have aptitude in understanding two cultures. They would be able to to do things the parent would not. Also through generations, the unlimited time game could be played out, without turning the player character into some kind of universal warlord.

It would also lend a tremendous amount of replayability.

This requires a lot of depth and detailism in the game world. Although the idea itself is good, I'm afraid it is beyond the scope of my project.

 

[Astromarine]

Well, not exactly. One thing you could do is generate a new character, without faction affiliations, equipment, or experience, but *keep the world state*. Let the wars that were started remain there, let the discovered archaeological sites that were found remain found, etc.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, with sci-fi, there are lots of ways to do it, really. There was an old EA game called Imperium, which was a 4X style game. One of the things you could find in the game was a mineral that gave you immortality as long as you kept taking it. If you stopped, you aged quickly and died. You could also give it to your governors and admirals you liked to keep them around forever. If they ever decided to be rebelious, you could cut them off.

For something like your title, you could have a similar type thing, where a device, drug, or some other thing gave the player virtual immortality. Scientist/archeologists could discover an artifact that did it, for example. A miner could discover a mineral that did it. An explorer could run across a ghost ship that had a device that did it. A trader could buy a drug from an ancient alien that did it. Each career path could discover ways of doing their own thing for this immortality.

 

[Hajo]

Well, not exactly. One thing you could do is generate a new character, without faction affiliations, equipment, or experience, but *keep the world state*. Let the wars that were started remain there, let the discovered archaeological sites that were found remain found, etc.

What about the former characters spaceship? Should it be inherited by the new character? I think that'd be in theme. But OTOH you suggested not to allow equipment to be inherited, so I asume you wouldn't want to see the ship available for the new character?

Maybe there should be a tax on inherited things, and the new character might choose to pay or start off without the old equipment?

 

[Astromarine]

Hmmm, dunno really. I was really just shooting off a general idea for games, where the character life is limited but the world is persistent. I kind of single-player-MMORPG

I'd say, if your game includes factions, faction wars, random events, etc you could have the option to retire a character and start a totally fresh one in that world. Then, you could add the previous character to the world as an NPC, maybe put his famous and tricked-out shpi for sale at an obscure dealer (or stranded in an alien world, to be found).
Or, if for example you want to include purchaseable "perks" at character creation, you could include an "inheritance" perk that gives the new character the assets of a previous one (selectable, and whose net worth defines the cost in points of the perk)

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think that implementing a time limit only to bypass it with immortality or next generation is kinda pointless. Why seek artificial ways to prolong the gameplay when there is a natural option of playing as long as you want or a fixed amount like 50 years or something? After 50 years a player can have an option of purchasing "health upgrades" - bio implants, parts replacements, tissue regeneration, etc depending on his/her career choice may be.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think that implementing a time limit only to bypass it with immortality or next generation is kinda pointless. Why seek artificial ways to prolong the gameplay when there is a natural option of playing as long as you want or a fixed amount like 50 years or something? After 50 years a player can have an option of purchasing "health upgrades" - bio implants, parts replacements, tissue regeneration, etc depending on his/her career choice may be.

The main reason is it provides a GOAL for the player in an open ended scenario.

 

[EEVIAC]

The main reason is it provides a GOAL for the player in an open ended scenario.

Exactly. (I just wrote a 300 word explanation but Netscape had a fit and I had to reboot.) But thanks Saint, I couldn't have put it more succinctly. For example, alpha PC slaves in the mines, becomes wealthy, but has a sideline interest science, due to his digs uncovering artifacts, scriptures, ruins, etc. Part of that skill could passed onto his progeny, who might use the wealth to finance expeditions to the outer reaches of the galaxy. You might get tired by the third generation and become a rogue and a troublemaker. The skills would be diluted but still there, so you don't have to start a new character to enjoy the middle game, which is personally my favourite part of any RPG. The end game deification in most RPG's I find a total bore.

It just makes sense to me that powerfull characters would be created (manufactured even) by generations and breeding. The idea that an ordinary fellow that works his way up to a plane-jumping super-being who can take on gods has been done to death.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The main reason is it provides a GOAL for the player in an open ended scenario.

What does? Immortality, new generations, or time limit? Regardless, I think that an open ended scenario does not require a fixed goal as players are free to set up their own goals and pursue them as they please. An open ended setting should provide possibilities and scenarios but not goals, in my opinion, of course.

It just makes sense to me that powerfull characters would be created (manufactured even) by generations and breeding. The idea that an ordinary fellow that works his way up to a plane-jumping super-being who can take on gods has been done to death

I agree with you that becoming a "super-being who can take on gods" is pretty lame, BUT the solution to this problem should not be finding a reasonable explanation for becoming a super-being, but providing an alternative to it. I don't see a reason why your character should become an immortal god-like being flying an uber ship filled with untold riches. What's wrong with playing a guy with a ship who by the end of the game will still be a guy with a ship who's done a lot and seen a lot, granted the guy is more experienced now and the ship is much better, but by the end of the day it's still a guy with a ship, not a superman in a Star Destroyer.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, if the immortality thing is a drug, mineral, or even a short term device, that provides the player with a long term goal of making damned sure he's got the right shit to stay around forever.

If there's an immortality agent for each career path, than the player can still switch careers in his elongated life span and still get his longevity fix.

Of course, you can do both generations as well as immortality, just have drawbacks to immortality. The drawback to generations is that your beloved explorer guy will die, and you need a progeny. You need something else for the immortality path, like having to constantly seek the stuff that makes you immortal, or perhaps side effects.

Say the mineral you mine causes your body to become mishapen, lowering your charisma a bit. Have the drug slow your metabolism and reflexes, so your dex goes down. You still keep your favorite character, but at a price.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The thing about immortality is that having such a huge and unique thing available to all classes somehow cheapens the experience. Instead of a major thing you make it sound like something trivial that is almost guaranteed to a player regardless of a career choice. Using D&D analogy it would be silly to have a Holy Avenger weapon available to any class in any form, not that I think that Holy Avenger should be present in every game, but that's a different story.

The generation thingy is kinda pointless as you are still playing basically the same person only now instead of John you call him John Jr but you are still doing something similar in a similar setting. A friend of mine played a game once that had the generation thing for the purpose of building a trading empire or something like that, and that kinda makes sense, but I don't think it would work well in a space trading/exploring/doing stuff genre.

Now, the side effect idea is interesting, but does it have to be related to immortality? I could be naturaly tied to exploring and trading like flying through electromagnetic anomaly or exploring radioactive ruins or using aliens implants, etc.

 

[Astromarine]

Not to mention it'd be like stopping the dragon-killing to go get more juice. It would quickly become a chore.

 

[EEVIAC]

The generation thingy is kinda pointless as you are still playing basically the same person only now instead of John you call him John Jr but you are still doing something similar in a similar setting.

Not at all, quite the opposite. The character would be different in many ways. You have mixed races, you have shared skills, but those skills aren't at the same level you left them. There's nothing to stop you from taking a science career in one generation, and a mining or trader career in another. If you get some choice over which skills you carry through, then you won't completely lose the option (and reputation, grandson of the great John the Uncoverer) to follow them in another generation.

My major points for suggesting this gameplay element are :

1. You don't have to start a completely new character to engage in new careers and have new experiences in the game universe - although in theory you could be a bastard child raised by a dockyard whore, who would have no contact with his esteemed father, and therefore recieve none of his tranfered skills, which would be akin to a completely new character.

2. You don't entirely lose all of your emotional investment in your PC, because of the shared skills, reputations, etc.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So what would be the point of the generation thingy? At first you proposed a shorter game with a rating in the end a-la Pirates!, I would assume for a purpose of more focused game and a performance rating. Then you suggested a way to continue the game with a new generation that would inherit some of your skills, money, and fame. So would this "second" game be rated as well, and if yes, then the rating would not be compatible with that of the "first" game because of the inheritance. So, if it's not the rating, but an artificial way to keep your character from becoming too powerful, then I think that this issue if it exists should be addressed through the game balance not by dumping your extra skills, money, and items every now and then 'cause it kinda sucks. One of the reasons an open-ended universes are attractive is because you can do whatever you want whenever you want in an order you want growing your skills, abilities, and trinkets so you can experience even more of a game universe. To limit your progress and your ability to progress in any way seems kinda wrong. A player should be allowed to do anything, stick with one career, try'em all, do nothing, but fly around and explore making enough money to pay for the "gas" if that's what he/she wants.

 

[EEVIAC]

So what would be the point of the generation thingy?

See the two points above.

At first you proposed a shorter game with a rating in the end a-la Pirates!, I would assume for a purpose of more focused game and a performance rating. Then you suggested a way to continue the game with a new generation that would inherit some of your skills, money, and fame. So would this "second" game be rated as well, and if yes, then the rating would not be compatible with that of the "first" game because of the inheritance.

This is not necessarilly so. The progeny would have an easier start, but the rating would be based on what the character does, not his end stats. He would not be an exact copy of the original, he would merely share some traits. He could be half-race, which could open areas of exploration and discovery that is sacred only to people of certain blood. He has the choice to follow the same career path as the parent, only his blood line could circumvent certain predjudices that hindered the father's discovery. Same career, same amount of exploration, but different exploration experiences.

True, a fully open ended PC game could do similar things, but the race of your PC is set forever.

So, if it's not the rating, but an artificial way to keep your character from becoming too powerful, then I think that this issue if it exists should be addressed through the game balance not by dumping your extra skills, money, and items every now and then 'cause it kinda sucks.

Its about giving goals. Placing minor roadbloacks in the path of the game that can be circumvented in a variety of ways, through sheer hard work, gaining the good graces of a culture, or just assimilating into their heirarchy through breeding.

One of the reasons an open-ended universes are attractive is because you can do whatever you want whenever you want in an order you want growing your skills, abilities, and trinkets so you can experience even more of a game universe. To limit your progress and your ability to progress in any way seems kinda wrong. A player should be allowed to do anything, stick with one career, try'em all, do nothing, but fly around and explore making enough money to pay for the "gas" if that's what he/she wants.

Agreed. In an open ended universe you write your own adventures and set your own goals. All I'm suggesting is another device with which you can form those stories for yourself, if you so choose.

 

[Vault Dweller]

See the two points above.

I don't believe they are strong enough. The first one merely gives you a boost in skills and/or money or in case of a "bastard child" is equal to starting with a new character. The second point deals with your emotional attachment to your character which may or may not happen, depending on game mechanics.

In my opinion, when a new feature is introduced it should open possibilities that did not exist before and deal with consequences of the new possibilities. The benefits of your idea could be achieved in a number of other ways, the simpliest way would be choosing "trained" difficulty and receiving a skill boost, more starting money and better equipment. Or you can actually choose your background and play it in a series of short introductory "missions" System Shock-style.

My main concern with the generation thingy, however, is playing 3-4 generations in the same game world that did not change a bit: same names, same technologies, same ship design, same customs, same language, etc. Imagine playing Morrowind with a 3rd generation character and seeing the same cities of the same size, the same weapons, the same political situations, the same problems, etc. What do you think? I mean everything is possible, but to update the world every time and have all the changes programmed is a hell of a work for a small feature.

The progeny would have an easier start, but the rating would be based on what the character does, not his end stats.

Of course, but I thought the the progeny would also get some money and better equipment which could have an impact on a gameplay.

He could be half-race, which could open areas of exploration and discovery that is sacred only to people of certain blood. He has the choice to follow the same career path as the parent, only his blood line could circumvent certain predjudices that hindered the father's discovery. Same career, same amount of exploration, but different exploration experiences.

Well, like I said before, don't you expect things to change with time, people being more open to a freaky race, or a sacred temple turning into a tourist attraction, or a new religion starting around the guy your original character killed, etc. Overall, the generation thingy is a neat idea if you shift the focus from simply continuing playing a similar character to watching the world change through the eyes of your character where who your character is is not as important as the dynamic world and its relationship with your character.

 

[EEVIAC]

My main concern with the generation thingy, however, is playing 3-4 generations in the same game world that did not change a bit: same names, same technologies, same ship design, same customs, same language, etc. Imagine playing Morrowind with a 3rd generation character and seeing the same cities of the same size, the same weapons, the same political situations, the same problems, etc. What do you think? I mean everything is possible, but to update the world every time and have all the changes programmed is a hell of a work for a small feature.

Agreed, playing the same or slightly different character in essentially the same universe would be akin to tits on a bull. I'm just assuming that the universe changes dynamically, and if it doesn't, the generations thing could well be an exploit to unbalance and needless complexity.

Of course, but I thought the the progeny would also get some money and better equipment which could have an impact on a gameplay.

Agreed again. It comes down to game balance. You don't want the progeny to be too skilled at the start or its counterproductive. That's why I was considering an inheritted skill/s (not all skills or at the same level) that you could work from, combined with races, to have unique experiences within a dynamic world.

Overall, the generation thingy is a neat idea if you shift the focus from simply continuing playing a similar character to watching the world change through the eyes of your character where who your character is is not as important as the dynamic world and its relationship with your character.

This was my initial idea. I'm not sure whether it was you who pointed out the joy of just being a guy in a ship, granted, a better ship, and a more skilled PC, but essentially just a guy in a ship. The fun should come from witnessing the world around you change, and watching the things you've helped change through your actions. The generations idea is merely a method of denying my PC the time and abilty to fix all the problems of universe in one lifetime, and refocusing on the role you've chosen your generational character to play, the cause/effect of those character roles you've chosen to play.