Game News NWN2 gets kicked by SciFi.com

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights 2; Obsidian Entertainment

<a href=http://www.atari.com/nwn2/>Neverwinter Nights 2</a> gets smacked down by this <a href=http://www.scifi.com/>SciFi.com</a> <a href=http://www.scifi.com/sfw/games/sfw14136.html>review</a>. The author cites the adherence to D&D rules and tired storytelling as his main reasons for disappointment.
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But wait: "I know D&D, and you, sir, are no fan of D&D." Not true. I'm just not a fan of games that daisy-chain sparsely detailed areas together and require you to run from one end to the other battling enemies pulled from the tired old passive-aggressive playbook. I don't want to go spelunking in dungeons where every corner's perfectly squared and every segment's implausibly flat as a pancake. And I really don't care for situations where, for instance, you clear out a bandit camp, trigger a script and then the bandit camp's suddenly—presto—full of bandits again. It has nothing to do with D&D, but rather the collision of tortuously detailed rules with a mediocre game engine and a dog-tired storytelling approach that—in 2006—no longer entertains the way it thinks it does.
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Convincing hardened D&D'ers that their beloved system may finally have teetered over into fetish is like rolling boulders up a hill, but it is, in the end, the big problem here. It's easy to say "But it's a D&D game, so fidelity's a virtue." Too easy. If you really want computer-aided D&D, it's far more satisfying to grab a copy of Code Monkey's eTools and stick with your local haunts.
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</blockquote>
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Fair point but still, NWN2 might be the closest thing D&D nerds will ever get to having romance options.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com/">RPG Dot</A>

 

[Emerald Melios]

Is this game much of an improvement over the first? I'm a bit wary because NWN1 wasn't very impressive, and I'm not exactly fond of the more devoted D&D crowd; I pretty much left the NWN2 boards because of them. Just seemed like all the more interesting concepts in D&D (like Psionics) were simply shot down ferociously.

 

[hoochimama]

I'd reckon that if you liked kotor2 over kotor1 you'll love this one.

 

[z3r'0']

LOL. Yeah, I read this review yesterday, and got a good laugh from it.

He totally bashes the game, and says that its fit only for DnD grogs. Its like buying an Anne Rice book and complaining that the characters are gay.

I get the impression, he'd like it if NWN2 was more like Oblivion.

 

[butsomuch]

The review was written by Matt Peckham who had written the pulled 1Up review.

 

[Greatatlantic]

LOL. Yeah, I read this review yesterday, and got a good laugh from it.

He totally bashes the game, and says that its fit only for DnD grogs. Its like buying an Anne Rice book and complaining that the characters are gay.

I get the impression, he'd like it if NWN2 was more like Oblivion.

You mean if he was more gay?

NWN2 is definitely a huge improvement over the first, at least from my perspective which really only cares about the SP. Though it still has some of the former's major faults (like a wacked economy or RTw/P combat), the simply effect of allowing you to have a party of well done characters is enormously conducive to gameplay. Plus, the "dungeons" are a lot smaller, which means less filler combat. Its linear, especially during the first Act where its also paced badly. Yet, there are still plenty of opportunity to roleplay your character and have consequences. I find this is especially true when you finally recieve your keep. You have to make all sorts of decisions about how to build it up. Plus, there are a lot more side quests at this time allowing you to pursue the main quest at a slower pace.

 

[elander_]

Wow another patetic review.

It has nothing to do with D&D, but rather the collision of tortuously detailed rules with a mediocre game engine and a dog-tired storytelling approach that—in 2006—no longer entertains the way it thinks it does.

He means it wasn't linear enough for the guys who can't read too much text?

Convincing hardened D&D'ers that their beloved system may finally have teetered over into fetish is like rolling boulders up a hill, but it is, in the end, the big problem here. It's easy to say "But it's a D&D game, so fidelity's a virtue." Too easy.

Yup is just that easy and the fact that despite its problems its still above all the shiny new crap.

If you really want computer-aided D&D, it's far more satisfying to grab a copy of Code Monkey's eTools and stick with your local haunts.

Why people would just stop enjoying games with the old D&D char system? And why would someone post a review just to show is personal displeasure against D&D and its players?

The reason people play old games or games with older char systems is simply because there is nothing better. Certainly not Oblivion which is a complete joke without any consequences whatever you do.

The truth is lots of players who never had anything better simply expect rpgs to be about choosing your cloths, your face and your powarrrrs and let you running around like a silly hyperactive and moronic kid breaking everything.

 

[cutterjohn]

...as I said on rpgwatch.com forums when they pointed out this review, that I was initially astonished by such a low score fore a fantasy/RPG game. Historically scifi.com reviews are EXTREMELY lenient on fantasy & scifi based games, and it's unusual to see them to get less than a pretty good/you should buy it rating.

The some other poster pointed out, hey! this is the 1up review guy, who HATES AD&D rules...

Beyond that, I'd give it a slightly higher rating than this guy, 7-7.5 for NWN2. Obsidian needed to do more work on the engine, and the pacing of the story as far as I've played it. Somewhat beyond the first lizard thingies dungeon now, which I had to replay as my ^#&*#%*&&@(**!!!! save for some reason put me outside of the dungeon and I had to do it all over again. (I'd swear that I saved the game after clearing that stupid dungeon and getting the shard follow the umpteenth million lame cut scene...)

[EDIT]
I will agree with the reviewer on one thing, I really don't care all that much for the 3/3.5e rules. The 3.5e rules as presented in NWN2 and 3e reading through my PHB a little last night(more that I had done so before). I never bother buying a 3.5e PHB as I figured that it was just a money grab coming out so soon after 3e came out, and they, apparently, didn't publish an update pamphlet. (Of course the money grab bit was re-inforced by the umpteen million complete XYZ, etc. books.) Mainly it looks like they nerfed the spellcasting classes, screwed up the bard spells(I think 2e was more accurate), changed favored classes(e.g. gnome bard?! WTF! instead of illusionist specialist), no wild mage(that'd've been fun in the game).

It's an OK system, but my preference is for 2e as things stand. This doesn't really reflect in my opinion of the game so much, as I look at that as a game the rules that it happened to use. For PnP on the other hand, I think that if I ever played PnP again I'd just as soon stay away from 3/3.5e based games.
[/EDIT]

 

[Volourn]

"Fair point but still, NWN2 might be the closest thing D&D nerds will ever get to having romance options."

Eh? No. BG2 did it. So, did NWN OC, and HOTU. As did PST to a degree, and so did TOEE.


Anyways, NWN2 isn't really all that much better than NWN1 espciially consideirng the fact it had the experience of NWN1 to go by.

NWN2's OC is mildly better than NWN1 OC. I'd rate it around 8 while I rated NWN1 OC around 7.5.

While NWN2 does a lot of things betetr. It also does things worse, and worst of all, the things it does wrong ar ebeyond fuckin;' annoying. I'm having a hard time trying to get through NWN2 OC a second time because of such annoyances ie. lameass forced companions for illogical reasons.

 

[Voss]

ToEE didn't have romance. It had 15 minute Vegas marriages.

@cutterjohn. No, they didn't publish an update pamphlet. Its the 21st fucking century. They put the rules changes (and, in fact, the entire core rules) online. Free.

 

[aweigh]

Unless you're gonna DM, you really don't need to buy anything at all. The online d20 SRD = almost as good as a PHB.

 

[youhomofo]

Slightly off-topic, but what the hell is up with D&D nerds? I went to this mini-convention on campus to try out some D&D. I have an open mind, and I figured the stereotypes were just stupid jokes. I was wrong. I really, honestly felt sorry for the people in that room. Maybe it was an anomaly, but every last one of them was ridiculously pale and apparently had never heard the word hygiene in their lives. I've never seen so many neckbeards and ponytails. And as we were playing I was trying to get into the game and, y'know, enjoy myself. The social misfits, meanwhile, bitched and moaned constantly at the DM, who was actually the only semi-normal human being present. When they weren't bitching at him they were bitching at me for not exploiting the game's mechanics in favor of playing the role of a thief.

I mean, isn't it obvious that if you make the effort to maintain yourself and not abuse people you actually wind up not dying a virgin? Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? I actually felt awkward in their presence because I didn't reek of BO and I was wearing clean clothes.

 

[Volourn]

"I actually felt awkward in their presence because I didn't reek of BO and I was wearing clean clothes."

You are a fuckin' weirdo!

 

[aweigh]

Well fuck, that's what you get for going to a D&D convention. The only passable D&D geeks are the ones that play it on the down-low and don't talk about it to people who don't know what D&D is.

 

[WittyName]

The review was written by Matt Peckham who had written the pulled 1Up review.

^

 

[Ellester]

Well fuck, that's what you get for going to a D&D convention. The only passable D&D geeks are the ones that play it on the down-low and don't talk about it to people who don't know what D&D is.

lol, the story of my life. I'm a closet d&d fan, I've had to be since I lost my group so many years ago.

 

[SpFiota]

That's what I need, a bunch of closet-D&Ders for discreet fun. The flamboyant ones turn me off.

 

[Voss]

Oddly the group I game with is as non-typical as possible. Two have recently moved away, but three were married, one was divorced, but with kid and serious girlfriend and the other was apparently single, but a Menninite which is fucking bizarre in a gamer, though not as odd as the Jehovah's Witness that was at the table. That turned into a 10 minute discussion (after he left) between me, the DM, and the guys that knew him before the gaming group to determine that, no, they weren't actually kidding.

None of them have atrocious BO (though the DM needs to work on finding a good anti-perspirant- the pit stains are disturbing. The deodorant seems to work though), and roughly half the group could be described as slim/normal build.

The only freaky thing is at least half the group are serious Christians, which to me is still a 'what the fuck?' moment. Even though its the second PnP group I've been in like this, I still find it a bizarre betrayal of the stereotype. (Same with the marriages, to a lesser degree).

Nobody is really insane, though three of us are rather good at exploiting the system. One wasn't, and the other fell into a rather good character build. 'Course, we need to be, since the DM doesn't nerf the encounters for us if things go south. Which, with the number of crits he rolls, happens on a regular basis.

 

[Baphomet]

The only freaky thing is at least half the group are serious Christians, which to me is still a 'what the fuck?' moment. Even though its the second PnP group I've been in like this, I still find it a bizarre betrayal of the stereotype. (Same with the marriages, to a lesser degree).

My cousin is a Lutheran minister and a huge Shadowrun freak. I don't understand it, but I think it's really awesome.

 

[AlanC9]

The review was written by Matt Peckham who had written the pulled 1Up review.

Hey, at least the guy's consistent.

Stupid to complain about a D&D game for delivering D&D, especially since he doesn't make much of a case against D&D. But he's kind of got a point about the main plot. I wonder if Obsidian went all stereotype because there were so many complaints about the KotOR 2 plot.

 

[Jim Kata]

<a>Neverwinter Nights 2</a> gets smacked down by this <a>SciFi.com</a> <a>review</a>. The author cites the adherence to D&D rules and tired storytelling as his main reasons for disappointment.

<blockquote>
But wait: "I know D&D, and you, sir, are no fan of D&D." Not true. I'm just not a fan of games that daisy-chain sparsely detailed areas together and require you to run from one end to the other battling enemies pulled from the tired old passive-aggressive playbook. I don't want to go spelunking in dungeons where every corner's perfectly squared and every segment's implausibly flat as a pancake. And I really don't care for situations where, for instance, you clear out a bandit camp, trigger a script and then the bandit camp's suddenly—presto—full of bandits again. It has nothing to do with D&D, but rather the collision of tortuously detailed rules with a mediocre game engine and a dog-tired storytelling approach that—in 2006—no longer entertains the way it thinks it does.

Convincing hardened D&D'ers that their beloved system may finally have teetered over into fetish is like rolling boulders up a hill, but it is, in the end, the big problem here. It's easy to say "But it's a D&D game, so fidelity's a virtue." Too easy. If you really want computer-aided D&D, it's far more satisfying to grab a copy of Code Monkey's eTools and stick with your local haunts.
</blockquote>

Fair point but still, NWN2 might be the closest thing D&D nerds will ever get to having romance options.

Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com/">RPG Dot</A>

I have to agree with all the quoted text so far, unfortunately, except the flat dungeon crap. I am still early in, though, so hopefully it will seem less cliche later on.

I also loved how you could choose any two cleric domains. Eh?

 

[Gromnir]

The review was written by Matt Peckham who had written the pulled 1Up review.

Hey, at least the guy's consistent.

Stupid to complain about a D&D game for delivering D&D, especially since he doesn't make much of a case against D&D. But he's kind of got a point about the main plot. I wonder if Obsidian went all stereotype because there were so many complaints about the KotOR 2 plot.

am never quite sure what people is talking 'bout when they complain 'bout crpg story. sometimes it seems as if story = critical path plot. have not yet seen a crpg that withstood serious scrutiny when viewed in such a fashion... and very few fantasy or sci-fi novels do much better. most often the plots is archetypical... but those that try to be different for the sake o' being different rarely fare much better.

one option that seems to work well is to take some archetype or uninspired plot and drop in a unique setting, but such an approach is risky, and for every Harry Potter that manages to become popular, there is dozens of failed and forgotten setting... and while many of us might wish that we could forget the forgotten realms, obsidian were stuck with it.

so, as with most modern fiction, character development is where you is gonna capture the imagination o' gaming audience.

...

am kinda ambivalent 'bout nwn2 character development. individual characters were relatively well-written and intriguing, but their stories never seemd to go far 'nuff, and there were little to nothing added to the archetypes to make 'em seem fresh.

the gith chick? it not bother us that she talked likes some character from a bad martial arts film (or maybe she were more likes a character from a "good" anime series,) but regardless, she were a step back from potential of kreia. sure, people wanna compare her to the gith guy from ps:t, but there were few similarities 'tween the two gith characters and their function w/i Story. even worse, chris a. had to know that people would draw parallels 'tween dak'kon and nwn2's gith, and sadly it seems as if chris did a diservice to his legacy. chris made his nwn2 guide little more than an ambulatory fortune cookie dispenser. bravo.

most nwn2 characters had dialogues that when viewed individually seemed okie dokie, but they not seem to grow or change or add to story as a whole. ammon jerro and shandra had big-time potential, but we suspects we like 'em more for what they coulda' been as 'posed to what they actually were.

on the positive end of spectrum we didn't loathe any nwn2 character as we hated fenthick and desther, and while maybe shandra and ammon and the gith were less compelling and complete than we would have liked, none of their faults bothered us to the degree that aribeth's did following nwn1.

again, our ambivalence is puzzling. kotor 2 had more bright spots, but the way the game were concluded were so terrible that we is still left wondering why fergie allowed his obsidian crew to does ending while so obviously drunk or stoned. "WTF!" am not a guy that utters profanity often as we believes it shows lack o' imagination, but the absolute terribleness of kotor2's ending left us at a loss to be saying anything profound or witty... or even intelligent. nwn2, while having to suffer terrible narration at conclusion, did not quite inspire such regrrets as we had after completing kotor2. nwn2 were maybe having less memorable or impressive highs, had fewer anger inspiring lows.

ultimately, we thinks nwn2 were a mostly solid, if almost complete unspectacular storytelling effort... butit were also less than we had hoped for from obsidian. no doubt chris a will experience many sleepless nights now that he knows Gromnir were disappointed, eh?

btw, taken as a whole, we liked nwn2... but there were lots 'bout it that we hated.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Volourn]

Mr. A didn't write NWN2's story; just the characters. And, outside of a couple which complertely and utetrly sucked; they were mostly well done.

 

[aries202]

HI

Matt's review of Oblivion is still NOT a review. It is his opinion on the whole D&D computer franchise.

There is still no review of the gameplay, the interface,
or the story or .....

In short, Matt continues his campaign (I feel) against the D&D ruies used in computergames.

Anyway, he asks one valid question:

"That's OK in the pencil-and-paper game, where it's necessary, but shouldn't a computer version be
more?" (than tweaking characters and stats, skills etc.)

However, imo, a review of any computergame would be the wrong place
to start such a discussion about this important question,
and makes me ponder that he never actually played the game at all.

 

[Jim Kata]

HI

Matt's review of Oblivion is still NOT a review. It is his opinion on the whole D&D computer franchise.

There is still no review of the gameplay, the interface,
or the story or .....

In short, Matt continues his campaign (I feel) against the D&D ruies used in computergames.

Anyway, he asks one valid question:

"That's OK in the pencil-and-paper game, where it's necessary, but shouldn't a computer version be
more?" (than tweaking characters and stats, skills etc.)

However, imo, a review of any computergame would be the wrong place
to start such a discussion about this important question,
and makes me ponder that he never actually played the game at all.

He mentions the crappiness of the interface and story right in the quote.....