Review SoU first gander at GameSpot

Saint_Proverbius · Jun 10, 2003

Tags: Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide

<A href="Http://www.gamespot.com">GameSpot</a> has posted their <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternightssou/preview_6029730.html">first impressions</a> of <A href="http://nwn.bioware.com/shadows">Shadows of Undrentide</a>, the expansion pack to <A href="http://nwn.bioware.com">NeverWinter Nights</a>. Here's a bit about the quests:
 
 
<blockquote>Toward that end, Shadows of Undrentide's campaign offers ample opportunities to role-play, even from the get-go. Like Neverwinter Nights before it, Undrentide packs in a lot of dialogue, and you'll frequently be able to interject with a variety of comments from your character's perspective. In one early quest, we were implored by a woman to save her husband and baby from a pack of kobolds that had broken into her home. We rushed inside the house to find the husband dead, though we managed to recover the child by offering a gem to a particularly greedy kobold in trade. We then returned to the woman and told her we'd recovered the baby safely. Then, recalling that our fighter was of evil alignment, we figured we'd lie and tell the woman that her husband was also alive and well. (Another option was to announce that we had decided to keep the baby, but we weren't feeling that evil.) But our lie didn't quite work, since our fighter wasn't an especially persuasive character. The woman caught us in the lie and ran for the guards, assuming we were the ones who had killed her mate. </blockquote>
 
 
<a href="http://nwn.bioware.com">NeverWinter Nights</a> packed in a lot of dialogue? Huh?
 
 
Also, why the hell would anyone lie about that, even if they were evil aligned? Why would the woman automatically assume that if you lied about it, you were the killer? Wouldn't the killer just say, Hey, the goblins did it! Not Me! or something to that extent? Saying, No, he's alive! I swear it! would be kin to the Monty Python Dead Parrot Sketch.
 
 
Thanks to Ibbz for pointing the way.

Sol Invictus · Jun 10, 2003

Sounds good, but I doubt it's really as good as it sounds.

They mentioned things like that when they were talking about NWN, by comparing Fallout to NWN and all that.

I doubt any of these 'quests' will make a damn difference because the rewards will probably suck and there's probably better rewards to be found in a barrel somewhere. What's worse is that I doubt that there will be any continuity regardless of what you do with this woman.

That's the thing about Neverwinter Nights, it never managed to 'capture' me, because it didn't have continuity. All the quests were just little independent gimmicks scattered around the map to keep the player busy for two seconds at a time.

The quest mentioned is probably a dead end quest. No matter what you do, it won't have much effect on you in the end.

In Fallout and Arcanum, there'd have probably been continuity. Remember the drunk guy in The Den who tells you about the ghosts he saw in the farm in Modoc? That's something I call continuity.

Vault Dweller · Jun 10, 2003

Saint_Proverbius said:
Also, why the hell would anyone lie about that, even if they were evil aligned?

This is retarded and this is what's wrong with Bioware. Why the hell would your evil character lie about it? Why would he care about the woman and her family in the first place? Why would he trade a gem for a child if he's evil? Obviously the woman got nothing since her house is taken by kobolds and can't return the gem's worth. Fuck, she can't even reward you for the efforts. The only reward if any is in the house. So wouldn't it make more sense to go in, kill the kobolds, loot the place and tell the woman that this is your reward for saving the child? I am tired of all the evil quests that play just like the good quest but your character get to ask for a reward like a fucking beggar.

murraysku · Jun 10, 2003

I'm not sure which is worse-that Bioware and the SoU developer thought the kobold incident was an example of good or even logical game depth and put it in, or that Gamespot praised it as such.

If Bioware released Tic-Tac-Toe with elves and orcs instead of x's and o's, it'd win RPG of the Year from at least three major gaming sites...

Vault Dweller · Jun 10, 2003

murraysku said:
If Bioware released Tic-Tac-Toe with elves and orcs instead of x's and o's, it'd win RPG of the Year from at least three major gaming sites...

At least it would have a good replayability value :lol:

Sol Invictus · Jun 10, 2003

Tic tac toe has shitty replay value the moment you realize that there can be only 2 possible outcomes.

X wins, or it's a stalemate. X will only lose if X is a moron.

Inspite of that fact, Tic Tac Toe is clearly the better game.

murraysku · Jun 10, 2003

And the choice between x and o would have about as much logical consequence and reasoning as the choice regarding alignment or how to complete a quest in a BioWare RPG.

And either way Exitium, Tic-Tac-Toe still has more possible outcomes, than say, Baldur's Gate or NWNOC.

Vault Dweller · Jun 10, 2003

Exitium said:
X wins, or it's a stalemate. X will only lose if X is a moron.

Never underestimate the number of morons. It's the biggest target market in the world :lol:

Saint_Proverbius · Jun 10, 2003

Vault Dweller said:
This is retarded and this is what's wrong with Bioware. Why the hell would your evil character lie about it? Why would he care about the woman and her family in the first place? Why would he trade a gem for a child if he's evil? Obviously the woman got nothing since her house is taken by kobolds and can't return the gem's worth. Fuck, she can't even reward you for the efforts. The only reward if any is in the house. So wouldn't it make more sense to go in, kill the kobolds, loot the place and tell the woman that this is your reward for saving the child? I am tired of all the evil quests that play just like the good quest but your character get to ask for a reward like a fucking beggar.

What value would the child be to the kobolds? The only thing I can think of is that they could eat it, but if that's the case, an expensive gem is a little overpriced considering the food they could buy with a gem versus the dinner for two that a baby would offer.

Ibbz asked me on IRC this:

<Ibbz> just out of interest, what options would you haven given the evil character?
<Saint_Proverbius> To kill the husband and say the goblins did it.
<Ibbz> heh
<Saint_Proverbius> Then it'd make more sense if you were caught in a lie, that she'd run and get the gaurds.

That was an instant reaction to the situation, and frankly, I think that'd be a hell of a lot better than the whole goblins-kill-husband-you-lie-and-say-he's-not-dead load of crap.

Psilon · Jun 10, 2003

Saint, that would also be a good excuse to shout "Kobolds ate my baby!"

How, pray tell, would anyone expect to get away with lying that the husband's still alive? There aren't any disguise kits in the game, so unless you could perform a really tasteless ventriloquist suicide act (husband stabs himself with your dagger while you drink a glass of water) there'd be no point.

This Persuade check sounds like the one in Chapter 2 where you automatically persuade Aribeth to start ranting about her nightmares. This time, however, it always fails.

Sabotai · Jun 10, 2003

How does BIO do it? With every new preview SoU sounds worse.
Thus far we have:

A young eager student
An adventurers school in the village Hilltop
A high level teacher Drogan, who happens to be a Harper
And who is secretly hiding some very powerful crystals
Some other hopeless recruits: the girl Misha anxious to become a hero, Dorna Trapspringer and Xanos, the arrogant half-orc sorcerer
The school is attacked by a swarm of kobolds and our high level Master Drogan is kidnapped.
Other NPC's Zanos and Dorna, and according to BIO down the road you'll actually meet another character who's actually pretty interesting.
An Elven statue which curses you if you spit on it (the evil option of course)
A kidnapped baby quest as discussed in this thread.

Ohh, I almost forgot the desert and winter setting and the 5 brand new prestige classes, some feats and magic spells.
And since it's only a 20 hour expansion, what's left to discover?

Crazy Tuvok · Jun 10, 2003

Besides the stupidity of the outcome, the "quest" itself just sounds...uh well, stupid. I mean this is what GS and Bio choose to offer as an example of compelling gameplay?! Kobolds and assorted villagers. whoopee!! never seen or played that before. I hope SOU fucking tanks and hope that someone somewhere realizes that quests need to be more than this. This sounds unbearably dull.

Jed · Jun 10, 2003

Crazy Tuvok said:
Besides the stupidity of the outcome, the "quest" itself just sounds...uh well, stupid. I mean this is what GS and Bio choose to offer as an example of compelling gameplay?! Kobolds and assorted villagers. whoopee!! never seen or played that before. I hope SOU fucking tanks and hope that someone somewhere realizes that quests need to be more than this. This sounds unbearably dull.

It is really sad that this mediocre shit swings so much marketing hype. I've played a few of the fan-made mods, and any of the better ones--likely done by one lone person--kicks the shit out of the OC (and probably the expansion) with one hand tied behind its back. Too bad the atrocious combat and lackluster tilesets make every mod (after a point) feel like every other mod... The only reason I haven't tossed my discs yet is the City of Doors Initiative. No, wait--I mean teh hord3s uv teh undardark!!!!!!!!!111

Sol Invictus · Jun 10, 2003

The way I see it, the entire situation in which a person would lie about something like that can only happen in a very poorly written game. Nobody would ever think of doing something like that in real life when you take the emotions of the crying woman under consideration, the situation itself, and the presumption that the woman would be rich or willing enough to reward you for telling her that her husband is alive.

This sort of thing can only happen in a poorly written game.

Saint_Proverbius · Jun 10, 2003

No, I think the problem is what Psilon said and I elluded to with the Monty Python sketch reference.. The number one problem with lying to the wife about the fate of the husband is the dead corpse of the husband right there on the floor. It's just absolutely ludicrious, and there's no motivation to do it that outweights the scenario for a clean get away.

Chadeo · Jun 10, 2003

I donâ€™t know why you guys are so hard on Biocrap all the time.

Clearly they suck at making an Evil option. Clearly you are only able to write well about that which you know the most. Thus Biocrap clearly is not Evil.

Tim Cain can write a good Evil option. Thus TC clearly is Evil.

Oh and we should toss Jeff Vogel into the Evil crowd as well, along with those crazy Zero-Sum guys.

That makes all of you nothing but devil worshipers.

Shame on you.

Oh and clearly your husband is only suffering from a minor flesh wound, I will be sure to run along and tell the local cleric to stop back by and help you on my way out of town, miss. I will just take this here chicken for the effort. Have a nice day!

Ibbz · Jun 11, 2003

I probably should mention the fact that Floodgate created the story and quests - Bioware did the programming and art side of it.

Rosh · Jun 11, 2003

Ibbz said:
I probably should mention the fact that Floodgate created the story and quests - Bioware did the programming and art side of it.

No noticable improvement, either.

An Elven statue which curses you if you spit on it (the evil option of course)

"OH! LOK!!! I R TEH EVEL!!! I SPITED ON TEH STATOO AND IT CRUSE$S ME!!!11!!!!loLOlO!!! I R TEH EVEL!!!!!"

HanoverF · Jun 11, 2003

So, being evil means you lie like Tommy Flanagan

"Yes your husbands alive... and he eh.. .ran off with... Morgan Fairchild, yeah thats the ticket."

Rosh · Jun 11, 2003

It's simple. BioWare's version of "evil" just means you're fucked all over. With penalties and other crap that they keep putting on evil characters, it really makes one assume that any evil NPC is either retarded, loves to live in a gimped and cursed life, or is clearly insane.

EEVIAC · Jun 11, 2003

I thought Floodgate were staffed by ex Looking Glass people? That was part of the reason I had hopes for the game being a game and not a resource pack for modders.

Rosh said:
It really makes one assume that any evil NPC is either retarded, loves to live in a gimped and cursed life, or is clearly insane.

Having a cursed life can be fun. Jinxed is one of my favourite traits from Fallout, I wish it was more utilized as a gameplay device. Watching an entire combat round where myself and four Raiders critically fail is one of my favourite game experiences.

<edit> the edit button has been fixed.

Rosh · Jun 11, 2003

Ciritcal fails can be funny, but when it's something that will most likely be -something to a stat or whatever, then it makes you wonder why the hell anyone would bother.

Astromarine · Jun 11, 2003

My favorite Fallout character was luck 10 and jinxed. Didn't play much with with but did I have fun...

Moondog · Jun 14, 2003

If Bio can't even implement the little things, like Magic Fang spells properly, what hope is there for the rest of the expansion?

Review SoU first gander at GameSpot

Administrator

Erudite

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Novice

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Erudite

Novice

Commissar, Red Star Studio

Administrator

Erudite

Liturgist

Liturgist

Cipher

Erudite

Administrator

Liturgist

Augur

Erudite

Arcane

Erudite

Erudite

Erudite

Erudite

Novice