Editorial Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

<a href=http://www.duckandcover.cx>DAC</a> has posted an <a href=http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=88>article</a>, exploring the depth of Bethesda-Fallout relationship and making all kinda crazy conclusions like "Bethesda really needs the Fallout fans!".
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<blockquote>I think there’s more to it than that; ultimately, Bethesda needs Fallout. What’s more, they need Fallout 3 to please the fans. They didn’t need Fallout before announcing they had started work on the game, but they do now. It’s quite a journey getting to that conclusion, but take a seat next to this burning oil drum, help yourself to some rotgut… well, it’s mostly rotgut; don’t worry about the lumps… and let me explain.</blockquote>You kinda lost me at "to please the fans", so by all means, explain.
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<blockquote>There’s a fundamental key that any developer or publisher bravely striding into the Fallout universe should know, and if they don’t, they’ll learn it by the time their game is released: Fallout is all about the fans. The decent games stopped coming almost ten years ago; what’s left is a fanbase that’s notorious amongst geek and gaming culture for being rabid, mutated, angry, discordant, for infighting and for being argumentative and perverse. In other words, a fanbase that’s assumed many of the characteristics which placed Fallout outside the cosy campfire circle of Tolkien-themed fantasy worlds, an ugly, rejected duckling that turned into a beautiful two-headed swan. And the point, for an aspiring developer, is this: the route to any Fallout game’s success is through those fans.</blockquote>Well, let's hope that Teatime is right. Opinions?
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[HanoverF]

Fallout 3 “will disappoint Fallout fans and delight everyone else”... “Bethesda are just dirty big Fallout fans

zomg Bethesda will be disappointed with their own game! The seventh seal will be brake and endtimes will begin.

 

[EvoG]

He is actually. It might not be as black and white, but the more succinct thing he said was with regards to the license; why build a "Fallout" when they could save 6.4 million bucks and make their own post-apoc universe? Stalker was the most Fallout-y game to date, and it was otherwise an unknown. The Fallout license is not as valuable as mainstream licenses(Scarface, Godfather, Spiderman, 50 Cent), and is only really the coveted property of the diehard fans. Anecdotal stories about its gameplay have a ton of value to newcomers, so the word of mouth can be more significant than "this game rocks".

I'd be absolutely surprised if the game came anywhere near a phase-based system like Bioware's, let alone a true turn-based system like Fallouts, but I also sincerely do not believe thats necessary...Fallout is not entirely defined just by its combat system(go ahead and argue but I won't agree). So that aside, Bethesda can easily win the fans over with everything else that makes Fallout a Fallout, and they have to, else again, why spend that much money for the rights to a game the "cult" will despise and no one else will care about?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Here's my brief take on this: Bethesda doesn't need the Fallout fans.

Here's my slightly longer take on this: Bethesda doesn't need the Fallout fans - at least, not the vocal minority. Bethesda is on the right track, after all. The Elder Scrolls series are still relatively young and they can certainly milk it for all its worth, and there will most certainly be a market for it. And I don't have any doubt Fallout 3 will sell regardless of whatever it metamorphs into. Beth enthusiasts, fans and apologists will flock to it based on the company's name alone, either oblivious to the series or very much looking for Obivion with Guns; and even if FO3 turns out to be the most dreaded drek of the wastelands as some Fallout fans have been saying, most detractors will eventually give in, conform and buy the game. Call it curiosity, call it knowing the enemy; they will buy it. If not them, then the large, silent masses of Fallout "fans" who one way or another have had contact with the game will.

Of course, voices of reason that try to speak louder than starry eyed game reviewers who will drool at anything Bethesda develops will always exist, but this is a win-win for Bethesda. They only "need" us insofar as we are willing to be communicative and provide ideas that fit with their established design: those hoping Beth to suddenly wag their tails and ask us how we'd like to see the game are delusional. And while we can communicate, we will never - by whatever reasons - compromise. It's not in us, or in any other group of gamers who take gaming seriously as us, to see the games that layed the groundwork for modern games to be subjected to changes that are made to appeal to current generations - generations which have no idea of what the games were, gamers who can't grasp the context of these games and their value.

If we haven't lost yet, we're dangerously close to do so. After all, we are up against gaming communities whose first reaction to the words "Fallout fan" is scorn, eye rolling or insult hurling, the three greatest e-sports. We are up against a company that considers the massive simplification of Oblivion to be something good in the face of the quality and design of Daggerfall. We are up against a noticeable shift in design priorities, with presentation values and the underlying technology to support them soaking up the costs required for indepth design and gameplay, in today's market. We are up against gamers whose knowledge of gaming history is perverted by the notion that the past is dead, that GotY awards are all that matters, and that if we're not siding with them we're against them.

 

[sportforredneck]

Call it curiosity, call it knowing the enemy; they will torrent it.

This seems more realistic.

 

[Nottheking]

Yes, it is rather interesting to note that, as EvoG pointed out, in some respects the few million bucks BethSoft spent on acquiring IP were kinda silly, at least from the perspective of simply putting out a new line of RPG. As S.T.A.L.K.E.R. just demonstrated, a brand-new IP can be a best-seller. Likewise, from a profit standpoint, Elder Scrolls games are nightmarish.

However, I also see an irony here: yes, BethSoft could really use its fans. Perhaps even "need" them. It also could really use their input. However, what group are they going to listen to? No, not DIRECTLY the Elder Scrolls fans, but namely, those that they're on the best terms with. Naturally, because the Oblivion fans are mostly drooling over the game, BethSoft's going to feel the most inclined towards them.

On the other side, the people with the best ideas, at least in general, are those that've been through in the series since Fallout one. However, it's pretty uniform that the series' closest fans have developed a level of disillusionment for BethSoft. And as such, they are inclined toward being on the frosty side.

So I see two sides here, and neither looks like it wants to move toward the other. A shame.

 

[Hazelnut]

I want Mr Teatime to be right, I really do, but I'm not so sure I can call this between his position and R-Ps. Certainly the last paragraph of R-Ps post is spot on, it's just whether this game will appeal to the hordes if the word on the internet is that it's crap. Good post though.

I probably agree with sport about the FO fanbase trying things out, I doubt there will be many purchases from this segment if it stinks.

(P.S. R-P, it's 'laid the groundwork' not "layed" - friendly tip)

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

^Yeah, thanks for that. I have random fits of English murdering :/

 

[Hazelnut]

Hey, you should see my Portugese, or even my Spanish...

Learned from watching Dora the Explorer no less!

(I bet noone saw that reference turning up in a FO3 thread did they?)

 

[Ion Flux]

Hey, you should see my Portugese, or even my Spanish...

Learned from watching Dora the Explorer no less!

(I bet noone saw that reference turning up in a FO3 thread did they?)

Backpack, backpack!

Vaminose!

 

[OccupatedVoid]

Tú eres joto

Try learning that from Dora.

 

[The_Pope]

There's a simple reason they bought fallout. It has a reputation as being a super hardcore intellectual game - that means fallout 3 will be a game smart people play. Retards like to be told they're smart. Preferably by Patrick Stewart.

 

[MountainWest]

A few weeks ago, Kieron Gillen predicted that Fallout 3 “will disappoint Fallout fans and delight everyone else”. He questioned why Bethesda bought the license if they could have an easier time of it just developing their own post-apocalyptic RPG from scratch. Why bother with a sequel if the fans of the series will be disappointed? His conclusion: “Bethesda are just dirty big Fallout fans and would love to play in the Sandbox.”

Sure.

"Hey Todd! I'm so fucking tired of making these lame ass Elder Scrolls games. You know, lets buy that frikken Fallout-license and turn it into Oblivion with guns! Why? For fun, Toddy! For fun!! Yeah, yeah, I know; we got this multi-million dollar business to run, mouths to feed and furries to jerk off, but, fuck - I'm a fan, you're a fan... let's do it Todd! What do you say? Are you with me dude? ...Toddy honey?"

I think there’s more to it than that; ultimately, Bethesda needs Fallout. What’s more, they need Fallout 3 to please the fans. They didn’t need Fallout before announcing they had started work on the game, but they do now. It’s quite a journey getting to that conclusion, but take a seat next to this burning oil drum, help yourself to some rotgut… well, it’s mostly rotgut; don’t worry about the lumps… and let me explain.

Bethesda needs the Fallout fans as much as Oblivion needed the die-hard Daggerfall fans. Fuck, at this point in time most XBOX-kiddies - you know, the target audience; or have you forgotten that? - doesn't even know Fallout exists. They'll see the videos of übergraphics, "cool"-looking characters and big-ass guns, they'll hear that the Fallout-games were some of the best games ever created and they'll fucking flood the F3-forums with their dumb fucking questions and statements. It's insane to think the "true" Fallout fans will be able to make themselves heard at that time. We'll be like mosquitos drowning in a river of shit.

There’s a fundamental key that any developer or publisher bravely striding into the Fallout universe should know, and if they don’t, they’ll learn it by the time their game is released: Fallout is all about the fans. The decent games stopped coming almost ten years ago; what’s left is a fanbase that’s notorious amongst geek and gaming culture for being rabid, mutated, angry, discordant, for infighting and for being argumentative and perverse. In other words, a fanbase that’s assumed many of the characteristics which placed Fallout outside the cosy campfire circle of Tolkien-themed fantasy worlds, an ugly, rejected duckling that turned into a beautiful two-headed swan. And the point, for an aspiring developer, is this: the route to any Fallout game’s success is through those fans.

It's a serious ego at work here. Fallout as we know it is DEAD. D.E.A.D. Bethesdas Fallout won't be our Fallout - we know it, Bethesda knows it and I'll be damned if they gave a shit. The ones who don't know it is the dumb fucking kids who'll see the über-graphics and buy 2 million copies.

I know what you’re thinking. Don’t credit yourself. A fanbase is disposable, especially if it’s not particularly large (though larger than you might think). Hell, Bethesda can make a new fanbase, a better and shinier one that supports cliffracer cameos in Vault 13’s living quarters. The Fallout community is old, it thinks its bark louder and its bite stronger than it really is, it’s about time someone brought out the shotgun and got all Ol’ Yeller on its ugly pock-faced ass.

Unfortunately, you’re wrong. Fallout 3’s success, measured both by sales and Bethesda’s subsequent reputation, hinges on the fans’ reaction to it. The reason is simple, and it’s to do with the core difference between the Elderscrolls, personified currently by Oblivion, and Fallout, personified since 1998 by its fanbase.

The difference between what? Bethesdas Elder Scrolls and Fallout? Or Bethesdas Elder scrolls and Bethesdas Fallout? Fallout could just as well be a new IP. The kids who'll buy it haven't played the old Fallouts, ffs. Really, if Bethesda had announced a post-apoc rpg called Fallin, you don't think it would have sold like hotcakes after Oblivions success? A new franchise or an old franchise no-ones heard of, it doesn't matter - it's the same fucking thing. Bethesda don't need the old Fallout fans. Their Fallout will create new Fallout-fans. Just as Oblivion created new "RPG-fans".

Come closer.

I was getting worried you wouldn't ask, tihi.

Oblivion is mainstream. Fallout is cult.

[Pssssst] Bethesdas Fallout will be mainstream. And it'll get a 9.5-avarage at all bigger review-sites. It'll sell. Oh yes, it'll sell. [/Psssst]

Allow me to elaborate. Oblivion’s fans are many and wide-reaching, and the game was an instant sales success. It sold on the attractiveness of its graphics and the concept of a massive world to do your thing in: a virtual sandbox. Fallout never sold much on release. Its sales were and still are a slow burn, achieved through word of mouth: whispered tales of shooting a village until all that remained was the radiated and parched ground, whilst holding down a drug addiction you needed to survive (and what did you say happened when that dog critically bit that guy’s groin?!). This was the Fallout experience’s sustenance: it adapted and changed and encouraged you. Besides, the guys who thought that village needed a good raising anyway had started taking an interest, and suddenly it dawns that the entire experience is moulding itself around your actions. If Oblivion is a sandbox, a square container which you can walk corner to corner, Fallout is silly-putty: malleable goop that shapes itself to your hand, something you’re free to stretch and pull before lobbing at absolutely anyone you like. No game-overs here; only consequences.

This is irrelevant.

Most gamers have casually dipped in and out of Oblivion. You don’t dip in and out of Fallout; you’re either dunked in the vats, baptised and emerge remade, or you take one look at the bubbling green ooze and run away like a girl (mummy those things don’t look like elves!).

Still irrelevant. F3 won't be like F1 or F2. And no one cares but us.

Cult is obsessive, cult is conversion to an idea. In Fallout’s case, cult has refused to let a game and the things it did fade from prominence, ten years after that game was released, nine years after its only true sequel, four years after its development house was closed forever and all staff made redundant, and 35 years after Watergate. Cult allowed Interplay to sell the Fallout licence to Bethesda for $5.75 million, and cult is what will determine Fallout 3’s success or failure. Some might say the game’s fans are a bunch of angry cults; that’d be right, too.

Angry indeed. Delusional seems to be another trait.

It’s the phenomenon of cult that makes it obligatory to mention the fanbase and their opinion in any review of a product bearing the Fallout name, in any discussion involving that game: Fallout is now as much about the fans as it is the wasteland. If you don’t believe me, just glance at reviews for the runt children of the series, Fallout: Tactics and Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. Furthermore, those were released years ago; as the Fallout games get increasingly obscured by the glowing mists of time, the live and kicking fanbase grows in notoriety to fill their place. Mention Fallout these days to anyone who’s heard of it, and it’s likely to not only conjure up images of beef jerky and a dying, cracked world, but also of rabid, obsessive fans, snarling and foaming and ready to snap at any attempt to meddle with a shrine that they built and have been maintaining since 1997.

Occasionally, the beef jerky and cracked world comes behind thoughts of the fanbase; sometimes, not at all.

What I’m trying to say is this: Fallout and its fans have become one and the same, and you can’t sever one from the other. As life imitating art, they both, together, represent a chaotic and dangerous order (OK, as dangerous and chaotic as nerdy, mostly male twenty-somethings sat in front of computer screens can be), a break from the mainstream and something you can’t quite fully grasp without it shifting and slipping away. Developers may try to awkwardly solder the Fallout name onto something without fan support, but the end product will be weak and snap under pressure, leaving your investors gently weeping and wondering why the free thongs didn’t work.

So it's impossible to start a new franchise? They'll get new fans!

I'm starting to repeat myself; much like the author of the article.

My points:

1. No-one but us cares about upholding the legacy of the old Fallouts.
2. Most don't know or understand what makes Fallout great.
3. Most wouldn't agree if we told them.
4. The XBOX-kiddies, Counterstrike-kiddies, and WOW-kiddies who'll love an "Oblivion with guns"-game outnumbers us by God knows what factor.
5. We don't matter.

Still, I hope the author of the article is right and I'm wrong. I just don't think that's the case.

more delusional rants

 

[Nicolai]

It has a reputation as being a super hardcore intellectual game

Haha, what?

 

[kingcomrade]

Wait, what?

It has much text and little bloom.

 

[z3r'0']

Well, I find myself not seeing the situation in the same light as our esteemed Mr. Teatime. Still, kudos to him for a well-written and entertaining read.

My outlook on Bethshitda's Fallout game is as bleak as a heroin dust-head on his last soul-fuelled ride.

 

[The_Pope]

It has a reputation as being a super hardcore intellectual game

Haha, what?

I said reputation. It does have that.

People who can read are intellectuals in the game industry.

 

[The Public Enemy]

There’s a fundamental key that any developer or publisher bravely striding into the Fallout universe should know, and if they don’t, they’ll learn it by the time their game is released: Fallout is all about the fans. The decent games stopped coming almost ten years ago; what’s left is a fanbase that’s notorious amongst geek and gaming culture for being rabid, mutated, angry, discordant, for infighting and for being argumentative and perverse. In other words, a fanbase that’s assumed many of the characteristics which placed Fallout outside the cosy campfire circle of Tolkien-themed fantasy worlds, an ugly, rejected duckling that turned into a beautiful two-headed swan. And the point, for an aspiring developer, is this: the route to any Fallout game’s success is through those fans.

That didn't make any fucking sense. I hope that was selective quoting, because it really doesn't. "The fans are rabid and sexually frustrated. Thus, Fallout 3 must appeal to the fans." What

I'm certainly not going to read it though, sounds wanky at best.

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

Well, let's hope that Teatime is right. Opinions?

I would say that he is right. The fundamental argument is sound and stands to reason.

Don't bother with the turnbased debate. Fallout 3 will not be turnbased. And it doesn't matter. The turnbased combat was not what made Fallout special. (Tactics served up the turnbased combat system as main course. Didn't taste all that good.)

Beth needs to get the feeling of the Fallout universe right. The visuals, the atmosphere and the way the story plays out. The combat itself can be all out FPS action, as long as the alternative options are in there - the choices and the consequenses. And the devil is in the details.

Will they pull it off? Probably not. It's a tall order. But I still have some hope left. At least they will make an effort. After all, they have paid plenty of dollars for the privilege.

 

[stargelman]

Much of what was in my mind after reading this interesting article has already been said by Role-Player and MountainWest, so I won't waste your time by repeating their excellent points. I'd just like to add one thing.

Mr. Teatime argues that Bethesda can't just create a new fanbase. I don't know where he spent the last ten years. I can only assume that in contrast to us, there are people that don't play just any RPG but exclusively Fallout and thus don't really see anything outside that pretty frame. Bethesda have pissed off old fans of their games twice. First with Morrowind, which drove many old fans away and embittered them to a similar extent you will see from DaC and NMA once the first screenshots are released. The second time was with the release of Oblivion, which lost them most of the rest of the old fans, including me and others who have recently migrated here.

It is utterly delusional to believe that old fans of the series are of any concern to Bethesda Softworks, that the game would be a failure if the old guard decided so. What's going to happen when they start to curse the game? We already know from our own experience: they'll get cut off. Their posts will be deleted for violating the forum rules (and that they will, I promise you) and linking to those sites will be prohibited. Then who'll hear them rambling?

Besides, everybody knows those hardcore Fallout fans are considered jerks, he stated that himself. How can he seriously believe anyone outside this "cult" will listen to them? Just look at what happens when you mention you don't like Oblivion on TESF. THAT is what is going to happen to them, too.

Oh and that remark about how Beth shouldn't reinvent Fallout - hilarious. I can only assume that he's just as blinded with hope as I was before Oblivion came out.


Like everybody else, I'd really love to be wrong on this one. But let's face the facts here: it's not going to happen.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

I would say that he is right. The fundamental argument is sound and stands to reason.

And what argument is that? The only arguement I gleaned from a single read-through was:
Premise: Fallout is "about" the fans
Therefore: Bethesda needs fallout fans to be successful.

In other words,
Step 1: Appeal to Fallout fans.
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit

 

[Top Hat]

Hey, you should see my Portugese, or even my Spanish...

Learned from watching Dora the Explorer no less!

(I bet noone saw that reference turning up in a FO3 thread did they?)

Why not? Fallout 3 is being produced by Bethesda, so let's have a quick look at the Bethesda Checklist:

Does Dora the Explorer have:
* Furries? Check.
* Mindless linear questing? Check.
* Oversimplified navigation? Check.
* Repetitive conversations? Check.
* Thief NPCs not stealing from PC? Check.
* Intelligence level aimed at children? Check.
* Almost-guaranteed quest success? Check.
* Irritating companions? Check.
* Illogical fantasy world? Check.

So when should we expect Bethesda to acquire the Dora the Explorer IP?

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

And what argument is that?

The argument about cult versus mainstream appeal.
The argument that if Beth don't care about the hardcore fan base, since that's the only fan base there is, they'd be better off making their own game without all the baggage. But maybe they don't understand that. Others have failed to grasp the difference between cult and mainstream appeal before, and lost money because of it.
What Beth paid for when purchasing the IP was mostly... us... Hope they know what they are doing.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

Well, I find myself not seeing the situation in the same light as our esteemed Mr. Teatime. Still, kudos to him for a well-written and entertaining read.

My outlook on Bethshitda's Fallout game is as bleak as a heroin dust-head on his last soul-fuelled ride.

Thanks.

The article was written, as I say right at the top of it (to the people who are getting overly-venemous) partly from a devil's advocate position and to get people talking. And yeah, the key point in it was that Fallout is a cult franchise, and Oblivion (and the TES) is a mainstream thing, and the rules for those being successful rely on different things. There's a case to be argued that originally Daggerfall was a cult thing as well, but I'm not sure how true that is (see below).

I take the point, for instance, about MW then Oblivion increasingly alienating the Daggerfall fans - though, not all of them, right? I'm not sure how big Daggerfall was to start with (for some reason i think it still was quite succesful at the time) but certainly I don't think the percentage of those fans that felt alienated by MW and Oblivion is near the percentage of Fallout fans who are anti 'modernising' Fallout via real time, first person and so on - which is, at least, the significant majority of people who would call themselves Fallout fans, I'd say.
Perhaps one of the embittered TES fans could elaborate on this. If the game pissed off original fans to such an extent, why did it sell anyway? Bethsoft didn't have much of a name beyond those fans when MW was released, right? Or was it only after buying MW (then Oblivion after it) that the disappointments (to you) became apparent? I think there are probably some key differences between the way the two franchises are being handled, but some similarities too.

Anyway, I'm happy to concede that it's a real possibility the game'll screw the hardcore fans like us over AND go on to be a commercial success. It may even be likely, especially if it's marketed as 'from the people who gave you oblivion'. But it's not set in stone that's what'll happen, and I think there's an interesting case to be made for what I talk about in the article, especially given the past games like FOBOS (and FOT to an extent) which clumsily tried to sever the fanbase. I DO think the rules are different for a franchise that's built up its reputation like Fallout has vs, say, something as mainstream as the latest Madden game from EA.

I'd say, in reality, it depends on how heavily Bethesda market the Fallout name vs the 'we made oblivion' angle ie. how much it's made out simply to be a new game from those oblivion guys (though the setting might put regular people off - it's certainly not what your average gamer, cruising for some elves, would pick up - see for example FOBOS, which despite being marketed as 'from the BG:DA lot', tanked, presumably because the setting just didn't appeal to the casual gamer). And so far, it seems they're going to call it Fallout 3 rather than Fallout: stupid subtext, which certainly speaks in our favour. If they're going to try and run with the established canon, characters, world and backstory as well, that also speaks in our favour (and in favour of the points I try to make in the article) - that they need the fans onboard for it to make money.

Still, glad some of you found the article interesting and entertaining

 

[EvoG]

The core of this discussion is that Fallout cost them a LOT of money, so why did they spend it?

Any arguments that the Beth loyalists will buy it has no value, since the Beth loyalists dont care about Fallout, and would buy ANYTHING Beth made...so the 6.4 million isn't for them. Beth could make a game called Post Apoc Game of Kill'in and they'd buy it, and Beth saves 6.4 million dollars.

6.4 million dollars is too much to pay for just their own satisfaction internally; perhaps they are SO overloaded with cash that they bought it because they could, but really, no.

The only reason to spend that money is in hopes that the name on some level is recognizable to gamers in general, but honestly you only get that from magazine editors and rpg fans. Most people into general gaming 'might' have 'heard' of Fallout, but it has no value.

The license isn't mainstream, not even for gamers. What did the first FO sell, 100k+ copies? FO2 did what, 125k+? Assume for a moment that like 1000 people here, on DaC, on NMA and wherever have a real distaste for Bethesda, we can at the very least expect 124k people to buy Fallout, but that really just about covers the cost of the license at 50 bucks a copy BEFORE dev costs. Whats the point then in the grand scheme of millions of copies an Oblivion will sell?

Make you're own PA universe, save 6.4 million dollars and still sell millions of copies riding high on the success of your last game. I sincerely believe they want to actually appeal to the general Fallout masses, and are gambling on the vocal minority having little effect...or that they have inentions of meeting them halfway.

Just my disclaimer...if I had to decide if they could do it right simply based on Oblivion, I'd say most definitely no. I'm not sure if its lack of talent or lack of interest or simply doing 'just enough' to sell the game, but whatever it is, no. I'm only arguing their potential intent for buying the license.


EDIT: Grandpa Gamer said it before I did at the end of his last....you beat me to it old man! :D

Hi Teatime...good job. Appears you have nice writing skill. :D