Editorial Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

[obediah]

Uh, should I read the article? I just assumed that anything that starts off that delusional isn't worth my time. I was reminded of the character in horror movies that rocks in the corner saying "there's no such thing as monsters" over and over while they and their friends are torn apart by said monsters.

Put me in the camp that just can't figure out why they even bothered licensing/buying the name. Perhaps The Pope is on to something.

 

[Amasius]

Good piece, but (unfortunately) I have to disagree.

Despite the no-doubt positive initial reviews, any future mention of it (and it will be mentioned again and again whenever the company makes a new game) will include the obligatory tagline: ‘… but the game’s fanbase didn’t like it because… ’. A black mark against the developers’ name, a reputation forever tarnished. The game will fade into obscurity – the fans will remain, and the consumer constantly reminded.

Uh, if Oblivion with guns sells several million copys (and I guess it will) Bethesda wouldn't have a problem if it "fades into obscurity" but instead they will make Fallout 4, 5, 6...

With the company’s gradual realisation comes this niggling hunch that dares us to think the unthinkable, to dream the impossible dream: Bethesda might get it right.

Teatime is an old Fallout fan, so why isn't he a steadfast cynic? So much optimism...

... if the fans are satisfied, commercial success will surely follow; a combination of Bethesda’s name and the common theme that will buzz around internet forums and echo in reviews: ‘the game has stayed true to the franchise’s roots and the fanbase’s hopes.’

Doubtful. Instead all Oblivion-fanboys would curse Bethesda because the game is not like Oblivion. And they are apparently the target audience Bethesda is aiming at. It's nearly impossible to satisfy both Fallout fans and Oblivion fans, not enough common ground - and the Oblivion fans are by far in the majority. Many of the old Fallout fans will probably buy Fallout 3 anyway but I doubt that many of the Oblivion fans would enjoy turnbased combat and spread the word of mouth. Maybe the malcontent Fallout fans will hurt the sales a little bit but no so as if Beth would disappoint the expectations of their target audience.

I think the article is based on a false assumption: the hardcore fans, assembled mainly at NMA and DAC are not the ones who kept Fallout alive (these places are some strange kind of dedicated museums) but Fallout lives on in the memory of all people who played and loved Fallout. And that are much more than the "eleven angry guys who may or may not frequent No Mutants Allowed". Like Oblivion Fallout 3 will sell on the hype and most game journalists have fond memorys of Fallout and nonetheless have praised Oblivion (e.g. Desslock). If there is one thing the curent incarnation of Bethesda is capable of than it is BUZZ. Hype and Bloom - thats their recipe for (financial) success.

 

[stargelman]

I take the point, for instance, about MW then Oblivion increasingly alienating the Daggerfall fans - though, not all of them, right? I'm not sure how big Daggerfall was to start with (for some reason i think it still was quite succesful at the time) but certainly I don't think the percentage of those fans that felt alienated by MW and Oblivion is near the percentage of Fallout fans who are anti 'modernising' Fallout via real time, first person and so on - which is, at least, the significant majority of people who would call themselves Fallout fans, I'd say.
Perhaps one of the embittered TES fans could elaborate on this. If the game pissed off original fans to such an extent, why did it sell anyway? Bethsoft didn't have much of a name beyond those fans when MW was released, right? Or was it only after buying MW (then Oblivion after it) that the disappointments (to you) became apparent? I think there are probably some key differences between the way the two franchises are being handled, but some similarities too.

Morrowind was successful because basically it was one of only a handful of interesting games for the Xbox. In fact it sold a lot more copies for the console than for the PC.
The same is most likely true for Oblivion. That alone invalidates your argument. Bethesda's main customer group is located within the console segment. Considering they've released Oblivion for two consoles, it's save to assume the same will be true for FO3. So where does that leave you?

While we're at the topic, it also invalidates any points about forum input (different thread).

While MW sold well on the Xbox because it was one of only a few good games, Oblivion sold even better due to Pete's extreme marketing rampage. The thing you have to realize is that Pete knows exactly how those games media people think. I have no idea how that business works, so I don't know if it is about bribes (having your ad in their publication), contacts, appealing to those peoples tastes or something else, but Pete does. He used to be one of those guys, a games journalist. He can sell this thing no matter if you and the rest of the cult like it or not.

Oh, and what Amasius said.

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

Oblivion-fanboys... are apparently the target audience Bethesda is aiming at.

Not exactly. If Beth were aiming only for the Oblivion fans, they would do another Elder Scrolls game right away. With Fallout 3, they are aiming at Oblivion fans, Fallout fans and a lot of other people too. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are aiming for the FPS-crowd (Much like Bio Shock). There is a large group of gamers that don't care for fantasy and magic, but like to shoot with guns...

 

[Amasius]

Oblivion-fanboys... are apparently the target audience Bethesda is aiming at.

Not exactly. If Beth were aiming only for the Oblivion fans, they would do another Elder Scrolls game right away. With Fallout 3, they are aiming at Oblivion fans, Fallout fans and a lot of other people too. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are aiming for the FPS-crowd (Much like Bio Shock). There is a large group of gamers that don't care for fantasy and magic, but like to shoot with guns...

I agree, but thats probably even worse.

 

[Koby]

1. No-one but us cares about upholding the legacy of the old Fallouts.
2. Most don't know or understand what makes Fallout great.
3. Most wouldn't agree if we told them.
4. The XBOX-kiddies, Counterstrike-kiddies, and WOW-kiddies who'll love an "Oblivion with guns"-game outnumbers us by God knows what factor.
5. We don't matter.

Still, I hope the author of the article is right and I'm wrong. I just don't think that's the case.

You forgot teh BIG irony.

A lot of people will be exited that fallout3 reach the shelves => they will be exited because it is a critically acclaimed RPG => fallout is a critically acclaimed RPG because of old-school RPG elitist like us.

However when we, the old-school RPG elitist, tell them that fallout3 will be nothing to get exited about they will dismiss out opinions without a second thought.

For some strange reason a lot of people trust games company completely, as in a lot more then they trust the fanbase, even if they were disappointed by that company before they will still take the company that is making the game word over the fanbase.

Sad but true.

 

[Hazelnut]

Hey, you should see my Portugese, or even my Spanish...

Learned from watching Dora the Explorer no less!

(I bet noone saw that reference turning up in a FO3 thread did they?)

Why not? Fallout 3 is being produced by Bethesda, so let's have a quick look at the Bethesda Checklist:

Does Dora the Explorer have:
* Furries? Check.
* Mindless linear questing? Check.
* Oversimplified navigation? Check.
* Repetitive conversations? Check.
* Thief NPCs not stealing from PC? Check.
* Intelligence level aimed at children? Check.
* Almost-guaranteed quest success? Check.
* Irritating companions? Check.
* Illogical fantasy world? Check.

So when should we expect Bethesda to acquire the Dora the Explorer IP?

LOL

Brilliant, Mr Hat.

 

[Nog Robbin]

OB and MW and Daggerfall (the Bethesda "RPG's") are all fantasy based. While the latest incarnations are certainly mainstreamed in style and playing method, it still won't appeal to everyone. Why? Because not everyone wants to be a knight on a horse, riding around and (getting off and) killing things with a big sword.
In P&P roleplaying games there are many different styles - but I would imagine the biggest two are the fantasy based and the futuristic/sci-fi based. Sure, many RPG players will happily play either (or any other style!) but some only find an appeal in one area.
So - why Fallout?
Well, Bethesda have claimed to be fans of the series. That's the first point.
Secondly, Bethesda have proved (recently at least) to be a little limited in the imagination area (with a very traditional fantasy world served up in OB that could easily be Tolkien or other standard swords and sorcery fare).
So... assuming Bethesda want to make a futuristic game (I will refrain from saying RPG). They look at what they like, and basically make a game that has that look and feel.
If they didn't call it Fallout, but it looked just like Fallout, there would be quite some commenting going on about this. They would have been seen to be stealing the game world, as well as raping the game play.
So they buy the game rights. Now when they make a game that looks/feels (visually) like Fallout, it's no surprise. The fact the game play will appeal more to the OB fans (which is very likely will) won't matter - a game developed by Bethesda is going to be supposed to be like that. In fact, if they deviate greatly from that it's likely to lose them a greater quantity of fans who simply want a gritty (adult?) environment with similar gameplay (freedom from consequence) that OB offers.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

No doubt it'll be released on consoles. Technically that's not a problem, it's just so far developing for consoles has often made developers shift their priorities in how the game plays.

Anyway, I just think that the Fallout setting is too obscure for it to sell on Bethesda's name alone. It's not just post apocalyptic, it's wierd 50s stuff mixed with an apocalypse and a grinning pip-boy, as well as being a sequel. If those things are kept in tact, and so far it seems Bethesda are aiming to do that (calling it Fallout 3, for instance), most people are going to want to know what the game's about before buying it, and reviewers are certainly going to mention that (and what the fanbase thinks).

Whether Bethesda get the game right or not, I do feel it will quickly disappear from the sales charts if it takes a FOBOS approach to the setting and combat and all that, despite Bethesda's name being stamped on the box. We'll see, at least. When people want to find out what Fallout is, they'll find sites like this, NMA and DAC waiting, and there's a raft of accessable material explaining just what made Fallout so great and what the concerns are for Fallout 3.

Oh, and just a minor point: technically it's not DAC's opinion on the debate, but mine - the original source of the material is actually my gaming blog, and the article's on both NMA and DAC equally (and, erm, if you liked it, Digg it!)

 

[EvoG]

Nog Robbin actually hit upon something I didn't consider; instant world/narrative preproduction. I ultimately would find it hard to believe they would spend almost 7 million dollars just so they wouldn't have to 'think' up all of that material on their own, as no game has preproduction costs that high, but it is an interesting idea.

Oh, and I find it a bit strange people still 'speculate' if FO3 is going to be on consoles. Here's another one to ponder...will the sun rise in the East tomorrow? Maybe...maybe not! Sure its happened before but who knows!! :D

 

[hiciacit]

Bethesda needs the Fallout fans because "Fallout is all about the fans"? Oh please! That's just being silly. Eveyone has a right to feel important, but this is pure delusion. Or perhaps you're trying to find a justification for spending a decade of your life in admiration of a franchise whose legacy is about to be ripped to shreds?

It is strange that they've spent so much money on the IP, but I'm sure they had their reasons, backed up by a nice market survey. I'm thinking they want to prevent anyone else from ever making a Fallout game again.

 

[stargelman]

nm, misread.

 

[Zomg]

If you guys really want to go into Mount Doom to forge the death meme for Fallout 3, start doing internet and print archeology to find out the exact mechanisms that got Deus Ex 2 declared gamer anathema. There is not a pissant forum on the internet where an opinion leader will not say Deus Ex is great while DX2 is a harlequin fetus, and if he can manage to express his rationalization for this received judgement it will be for Codex-approbated beardy reasons. The game itself is nothing that would go down bitter for your typical idiot, so it must have been mostly spontaneous anti-marketing.

Otherwise I'm in the obediah facepalm camp.

 

[Claw]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

People who can read are intellectuals in the game industry.

I with that weren't true, but trying to read most posts on the Beth-forums almost inflicts physical pain.

Don't bother with the turnbased debate. Fallout 3 will not be turnbased. And it doesn't matter. The turnbased combat was not what made Fallout special.

Oh no you didn't.

I've got a hard time seeing elaborate death animations work in realtime. They were one of my primary reasons for buying Fallout.

 

[RGE]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

I've got a hard time seeing elaborate death animations work in realtime. They were one of my primary reasons for buying Fallout.

Have you suggested to Bethesda that they should include instant replay, with adjustable speed? And the camera focused on the victim, of course. Oh, and adjustable motion and camera angles. Man, you could really get your fetish on in their new game! :D

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Just look at what happens when you mention you don't like Oblivion on TESF. THAT is what is going to happen to them, too.

Agree with most of what you say, but I see plenty of posts that state how Oblivion stinks, with little more happening than Oblivion fans saying "No, how dare you say that", and a good number of posters agreeeing that it, in fact, stinks. It's a Codex myth that the entire TES forums are Oblivion fanboys.

 

[stargelman]

Just look at what happens when you mention you don't like Oblivion on TESF. THAT is what is going to happen to them, too.

Agree with most of what you say, but I see plenty of posts that state how Oblivion stinks, with little more happening than Oblivion fans saying "No, how dare you say that", and a good number of posters agreeeing that it, in fact, stinks. It's a Codex myth that the entire TES forums are Oblivion fanboys.

Never claimed it was everyone. But there are a lot of people that are extremely vocal of their protectiveness of anything Bethesda makes. Just look at my good friend Flowerslide or that Northwind Fusilier guy.

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

Re: Bethesda & Fallout: The DAC perspective

I've got a hard time seeing elaborate death animations work in realtime. They were one of my primary reasons for buying Fallout.

Hmm...
The animations are part of the visual style, not integral to the turnbased combat itself.

As for reproducing them in real time. Nah, that would be to gross, wouldn't it?
On the other hand, anyone who played Oblivion can see that at least somebody at Beth is fond of grisly corpses, mutilated bodies, lots of gore and what have you. With the popularity of movies like Saw, and the strange American notion that nudity and sex is harmful, while bloody ultra violence is fine, who knows?

Post Hot Coffee, I'd say Beth will shy away from sex and drugs and rock'n'roll in Fallout 3, but go all in for the gore. A shame, really.

Edit: After the horrible Virginian campus massacre, maybe they will shy away from violence too?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Just look at what happens when you mention you don't like Oblivion on TESF. THAT is what is going to happen to them, too.

Agree with most of what you say, but I see plenty of posts that state how Oblivion stinks, with little more happening than Oblivion fans saying "No, how dare you say that", and a good number of posters agreeeing that it, in fact, stinks. It's a Codex myth that the entire TES forums are Oblivion fanboys.

Never claimed it was everyone. But there are a lot of people that are extremely vocal of their protectiveness of anything Bethesda makes. Just look at my good friend Flowerslide or that Northwind Fusilier guy.

Well that's fair isn't it? The other side is vocal too...

 

[Ladonna]

I agree with Grandpa (Though not about the turn based combat). I remember in an Arcanum interview when they asked LB about the appeal of the game afterwards, he said something along the lines of 'Fantasy purists were angry, and didn't like the game. etc etc'.

There is a chance that this game will not sell as well as they are thinking, unless the beatup about it attracts more people. The setting itself would turn many soccer mums around the bend, and fantasy fanatics (Oblivion lovers) won't appreciate not having magic, etc. Caine even used this as a reason to keep Fallout development going when Baldurs gate started development at Interplay.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter now. The meal is almost cooked, and was long since prepared and put in the oven. Nothing will change what it is now, and from the commentary its fairly easy to make a judgment call on how the game is turning out.

 

[Ryuken]

No magic aye, hmm, I sense some "psychic powers" coming up...

As for the appeal a post-apocalyptic RPG would have on a bigger audience; don't worry, the hype machine can sell anything to people who prefer a control pad for FPS's and even RTS games. The whole vibe surrounding Xbox360 is one of "we only get good, real hardcore games on our precious platform".

 

[Chinese Jetpilot]

Oh, and I find it a bit strange people still 'speculate' if FO3 is going to be on consoles. Here's another one to ponder...will the sun rise in the East tomorrow? Maybe...maybe not! Sure its happened before but who knows!!

Agreed. Herr Hines himself stated such in one of the interviews after the purchase of the Fallout IP was made public:

GameSpy: Since you now have the rights for the franchise, is Fallout 3 also coming to consoles?

Pete Hines: Our intent is to develop and publish the game for a number of platforms.

I don't think their "intent" has changed. Heck, their publisher didn't spend millions of dollars just so they could sell it to a smaller market.

 

[EvoG]

Chinese Jetpilot (these names are getting too long people!) :D

I'm certain its just those in the community hoping that maybe it won't be on consoles, therefore there's a better chance it will be more like the Fallout they remember by association.

 

[mister lamat]

the hub bub is the best marketing tool there is... it's like having jack thompson pimp your game for you. i'm sure they squeal in delight anytime something like this gets posted. the more someone hates on something the more interest it attracts, from people who really don't give a fuck why you hate it.

my take on why they bought it.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

I can deal with it being on consoles. If that leads to it being dumbed down, that's when I get annoyed. But in theory, a classic Fallout RPG can work on a console. If it's the graphics hog Oblivion was, I'll probably even end up palying it on the Xbox360 because my PC isn't top of the range (assuming it's worth buying).