Preview GameSpot has a HotU preview also

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: BioWare; Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark

And there's <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternightsxp2/preview_6073795.html">another preview</a> over at <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/">GameSpot</a> with roughly the same info as well as:
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<blockquote> In drow elf society, powerful creatures such as beholders and mind flayers have an uneasy truce with each other, so that they'll act as neutral characters and merchants in the game. </blockquote>
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There you have it. Beholders are now shopkeeps.
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Thanks again, <b>Taoreich</b>!

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

What, you're surprised?!

Money=evil in Bioworld. SO, one of the most evil creatures SHOULD be a shopkeeper...Wait till you see was kinda things Grazzt's selling....

 

[Ultron]

My character: "How much for the +2 mace?"

Beholder: "GRGGGRGSSSSSSSS!!!"

My character: "What was that?"

Beholder: "UMMMGRRAAGGHH!!!"

My character: "Right then....I'll just stick with my dagger..."

If anything, this HOTU may be slightly entertaining with it's merchants......probably not, though. The ultimate Bioware move would be to have dragon merchants. That would ROX0RZ!

 

[Volourn]

You DO realzie it is very plausible for flayers and 'holders to be "merchants" in D&D. This isn't a BIo created fantasy.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

very plausible? I'll give you that it may be possible, but it is not something that is very plausible (at least in the Forgotten Realms).

These creatures are inherently evil. They do not place a value on any lives apart from their own (beholders) and their society (illithid). They are also rather powerful...tell me, what would they bother to trade a character for that they couldn't just kill them and take. Not to mention that the cultural distances between them(language, specie, intellect, magic/psionic, subterranean) and the character would be so great to almost stifle any kind of interaction. They might trade with drow or deep gnomes or some culture with which they had a relationship with....but with some guy walking in the underdark? Yeah, right...

[edit] and that's not even getting into what illithid and beholders would get from such a transaction: illithid have hordes of slaves that could be used to make things; and a big floating ball thing really doesn't have much in the way of special needs (clothes, furniture, maybe a nice sword?)\

 

[Volourn]

Tell that to the beholder who ran a Thieves' Guild in Waterdeep?

Illithids have a very good reason to be merchants - just ask the ones in Skullport. You said it yourself - slaves. They sale goodfs that their slaves make in exhange for more slaves or gold to buy more materials for their slaves to use.

Yes, illithids and beholders are evil beyond redemption; but they are not brainless terrors of the dark. Just because you trade with someone doesn't mean you trust them, or you place value on their lives other than what they can give you.

And, why would they trade witha surfacer? Simple. The surfacer can get much easier access to valuable surface goods - something none of the the four main Underdark races 9drow, duergar, beholder, & mindflayer) have easy access to.

What would a beholder trade for? It si true they don't need the basics; but all beholders strive for power. Trading with a surfacer might lead to that.

To the question why a beholder or illithid wouldn't just kill someone and just take thinsg from their dead corpses. Simple. You kill them; you only get things found on their corpses. Iif you keep them alive, and trade with them; thye may bring things that you wnat in the future. Even beholders, and illithids know that adventurers/merchants cna be used as tools for the means to the end.

Admittedly, cultural differences may intervere but that always is a problem in a world were multiple species exists - even the "civilized" and "goodly" races like the eleves and dwarves have their problems communicating.


Gotta think out nof the box.

 

[Spazmo]

Volourn is right. Illithids and beholders are lawful evil and like the monies. Now c'mon, folks, quit nit-picking! There's about a billion legitimate reasons to slam this game!

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

Tell that to the beholder who ran a Thieves' Guild in Waterdeep?

I wouldn't defend one game's poor choice by using another one's

Illithids have a very good reason to be merchants - just ask the ones in Skullport. You said it yourself - slaves. They sale goodfs that their slaves make in exhange for more slaves or gold to buy more materials for their slaves to use.

They have no reason to buy slaves. And as I said, why would they trade, when they could just as easily take? Also, even if this were a reasonable argument, do you think Bioware is going to allow you to buy/sell people for the Illithid?

Strangely enough, if they did, that would solve some of the problems that many here have with them...

Yes, illithids and beholders are evil beyond redemption; but they are not brainless terrors of the dark. Just because you trade with someone doesn't mean you trust them, or you place value on their lives other than what they can give you.

They are not brainless. Why trade when they can take by force?

And, why would they trade witha surfacer? Simple. The surfacer can get much easier access to valuable surface goods - something none of the the four main Underdark races 9drow, duergar, beholder, & mindflayer) have easy access to.

What valuable surface goods? Probably the most precious would be food....but then that rots quickly and wouldn't travel very well...

To the question why a beholder or illithid wouldn't just kill someone and just take thinsg from their dead corpses. Simple. You kill them; you only get things found on their corpses. Iif you keep them alive, and trade with them; thye may bring things that you wnat in the future. Even beholders, and illithids know that adventurers/merchants cna be used as tools for the means to the end.

Admittedly, cultural differences may intervere but that always is a problem in a world were multiple species exists - even the "civilized" and "goodly" races like the eleves and dwarves have their problems communicating.

Gotta think out nof the box.

This is thinking out of the box? This is PC-centric plot at it's worst. These creatures have a thin veneer of purpose to disguise the fact that really they're only there to provide the PC with a pit stop: a chance to refresh and re-arm and go out again.

 

[Volourn]

It seems to me that you have a lack of knowledge of mindflayer and beholder "culture". They very much do interact, and trade with other races - most notably thed row and duergar since they're the other two most evil, influential races of the Underdark. I think it would be much worst if they were simply used as monster fodder like they were often used in BG2 except a few exceptions.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I wouldn't mind a single Beholder merchant or some such - I liked the Spectator Beholder in BG2/ToB...but a little Beholder town with Beholder merchants, arms suppliers, restauranteurs, hotel keeps etc etc is not only incongruent but plain goofy.
Illithids and Beholders are just not going to engage in prolonged established trade agreements with anyone. Mabbe it's singular to my experience but these races have uneasy relations at best and an alliance, even a trading alliance, seems to me kinda worng. Yeah yeah I know that it has been done but it strikes me as silly given the background/character of the monsters.
Tho Volourn is right - it is better than just including them as beasties to be killed. I suppose - tho that is really damning with faint praise.

O well - along with dragons and lichs these once great threats have been completely demystified and made common in every DnD Crpg of the last five years.

Soon the only thing left *will* be the Tarrasque (sp?)

 

[Volourn]

I agree there. I don't think there should be a whole "beholder" town as we know it in the real world. THAT would be silly.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I don't know, a beholder shopkeep does seem a bit silly. I'm kind of getting a mental picture of one trying to pick up a +5 vorpal sword with his eyestalk while he's glaring at you for miscounting the money you just handed him. Yeah, yeah, he'll have some trained lackey do the grunt work, the whole idea is a bit silly. Beholders are really too xenophobic to be effective merchants IMO, at best they'd mostly deal with others through middlemen, and you'd never see the creature behind the curtain, er, counter.

But besides that, we know the beholder shopkeep won't be good enough. His brother, Scooter, the beholder druid/bard is going to want to join up as your henchmen so he can avenge his father's death and maybe, just maybe, see that maybe all this silly warrin' and pillagin' ain't all it's cracked up to be. 'Cuz, you know, that's k3wl.

 

[Psilon]

The mental image of Scooter the beholder druid/bard is going to have me chuckling for weeks.

Anyway, would it even be possible to bring back the Spectator? I'm not a big fan of cross-pollination between franchises, but I think he'd be a much better cameo than Minsc or Tiax. He'd also be less likely to excite the Interplay legal department.

 

[Volourn]

Nope. Nadda. BIO has no control over the BG property. This is why I laughed when people assumed that when BIo promised returning characters from old game people expected it to be from the Bg series. LMAO I coulda told them it would be from the OC. Funny this, I did tell them that.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

Well yeah a Beholder shopkeep is silly, but a Beholder *merchant* could make for an interesting encounter. It was imo one of the better written encounters in the BG series to run into a Beholder who had no real interest in all things Beholder.

 

[Psilon]

Yeah, that's what I suspected as well. It might, might have been possible if BioWare and Interplay hadn't broken up with the litigious feud they did, but there was no chance in hell of seeing a major BG character, even after BG3 got canned.

 

[Volourn]

Remember, spectators aren't really the beholders we are thinking of. They are LN; and worship (and are creations of) Helm.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

It seems to me that you have a lack of knowledge of mindflayer and beholder "culture". They very much do interact, and trade with other races - most notably thed row and duergar since they're the other two most evil, influential races of the Underdark. I think it would be much worst if they were simply used as monster fodder like they were often used in BG2 except a few exceptions.

Hmmm...

Illithids: evil by nature, keep humans and other species as fodder and as slaves, generally distrusted by sentient beings because of their alien nature

Beholders: evil by nature, inherently magical, generally solitary spheroids with a fear of optomitrists.


Now remember, this whole thing started when I responded by joking this development was a logical progression since Bioware inherently equates money with evil. You said no, it was very plausible. I still don't see how it's very plausible, so I'll elaborate...

Let's go into the reality of it all

Case of Beholders: Where are they going to keep the merchandise? Their nature suggests that they're not going to be carrying it. So that leaves the goods in a stationary place. Now our beholder has to eat, so he either has to leave the goods unattended, which is pretty bad for business, or he has to select something to eat from the business that comes his way: which is pretty bad for business. Now critters could bring him food for trade, but then that begs the question where he gets his goods to begin with and how he keeps them supplied since he is eating his profit margin. Very Plausible? I don't think so.

damn, gotta go....let's start with that, Volourn please post with your retort on what makes Beholders very plausible, and i'll delve into the illithid thing later when i get back

 

[Volourn]

Beholders are all about power. Even in the Underdark, power = money. Having control over the economy leads to power as well so it logic dictates that beholders would want to control the market. Now, under ideal conditions (from a beholder's perspective), control would usually be onde by a position of strength, intimitation, and the like. However, flayers, drow, and duegrar (though they aren't as "famous" amongst the four) are not pushovers. Therefore, one can deduce that negotiations would occur for things the different races need - magic, slaves, gold, influence - would occur. Or else, they'd always be involved in some sort of never ending war which is NOT the case in the Underdark. All this can lead to individual beholders becoming a merchant of sorts. See, your problem is youa re thinking interms of human stores, or merchants. Beholders merchants are not gonna be saleing "mundane" stuff like food, tables, or the like. They are gonna be saling things like captives, magic they can't lose (in exchnage for magic they can), and gold to buy things magic or other thinsg they cna't access on their own. Geez... Stop reading the monster manual description, and taking it at face value which always describes 90% of the monsters as things to be killed, and the other 10% of things as goody two shoes.

The other aspect is the setting. It's the FR. Like it or not, the setting itself has examples of beholders setting up businesses of various sorts, or working with other races. There's the beholder who runds the old Tthieves Guild in Waterdeep, there's the beholder who works for the Zhents, and on, and on. Therefore, the situation is VERY plausible in the setting the story takes place in.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Beholders are all about power.

Which is what makes this silly.

Even in the Underdark, power = money. Having control over the economy leads to power as well so it logic dictates that beholders would want to control the market.

Which lacks the ambition for a creature that's all about power. Tending shop wouldn't make a beholder very powerful at all. It might make him some money, but not enough to control Underdark. Shopkeepers and merchants are tradesmen, which is still grunt work as far as a beholder is concerned. Like I said on IRC, we're talking about a serious slacker Beholder here if he's just peddling trinkets, regardless of what those trinkets are.

If the objects where mundane, there's not much money in them - no power.

If the objects were superpowerful, there's a lot of money in them but why give up those uberpowerful items for something as common as money? This is esspecially the case in a situation like a shop or even as a travelling merchant. If you have uberpowerful items, there's much better ways of using them to get power.

That's why it's silly.

 

[Sharpei_Diem]

Beholders are all about power.

This I can agree with. The rest....nope. I just don't see one of the more powerful creatures settling down to a life of trading. I'll over a compromise though, I could see our beholder using lesser beings as merchants/fences to further its own interests. But even then, I would hope for an entirely different kind of environment during the transaction - one far less trusting and far more threatening...

The other aspect is the setting. It's the FR. Like it or not, the setting itself has examples of beholders setting up businesses of various sorts, or working with other races. There's the beholder who runds the old Tthieves Guild in Waterdeep, there's the beholder who works for the Zhents, and on, and on. Therefore, the situation is VERY plausible in the setting the story takes place in.

I remember reading Greenwood when he was writing for Dragon (before he became an editor). At the time, he mostly wrote about Elminster and colored in a few other areas of his work. Needing to depart from Greyhawk, and wanting something different from Dragonlance, 'they' settled on the Forgotten Realms. I didn't particularly care for it, and I still dont. Largely this is because of a noticeable lack of cohesion that became evident after it's adoptation. Forgotten Realms became the dropcloth for every bonafide and wannabe writer. The realm was so vast, and of course had to accomodate everything in the D&D universe. If a writer wanted something, like a place to put monks, one was created without much regard to how it was all supposed to fit together. The result is a place that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and so I don't put any stock into what 'someone' has done or decided.

That aside, you are right in your observation. My only retort is that is not the way I want MY CRPG world.

 

[DrattedTin]

The monster manual has more depth than Bioware's "plot", Volourn.

 

[Volourn]