Game News Freedom Force 2 official announcement

[Spazmo]

Tags: Freedom Force versus the Third Reich; Irrational Games

Late yesterday, <a href=http://www.irrationalgames.com/>Irrational Games</a> made the official announcement of <b>Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich</b> in a <a href=http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?show=682>press release</a>.
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<blockquote>About "Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich" "Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich" brings <u>dynamic storytelling</u>, fast-paced tactical role-play, and larger-than-life characters from the comic book pages to the computer screen. In this title, the league of heroes must travel back in time to defeat Blitzkrieg, defender of the Reich and his homicidal henchmen. With action spanning from the blasted battlefields of World War II to the dazzling depths of distant dimensions, "Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich" will give Freedom Fans more than they can handle.
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Features for "Freedom Force vs. the Third Reich" include:
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* New nemeses of nefariousness like Tombstone and Sky King.
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* Destroyers of democracy like Red Oktober and Fortissimo.
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* Supremely stupendous superpowers like "Dancing Dead," "Aztec Mercy" and "Whirlwind Tour."
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* Awesomely augmented AI that gives your teammates the ability to carry the fight to their foes.
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* A radically revised rendering engine that gives "Freedom Force" a look torn right out of the comic book pages.</blockquote>
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Looks like the game will adopt a more freeform plot after all! And more communist enemies can only be good, capitalist dogs.
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Spotted at <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blues News</a>
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[Psilon]

I loved the Siberia mission in NOLF2 with the line "The greedy capitalist stole my weapon!"

But yeah, more communist supervillains are always a good thing.

 

[Kortalh]

That seems sorta rude... I mean, you don't see people running around going "I wish there were more black supervillains" or "I wish there were more Jewish supervillains"...

 

[Psilon]

I wondered why someone bothered to register just for that, but I see on your web site that you support the Communist Party of America. So we seem to have insulted your political ideology.

What you don't understand, though, is that we're not really talking about communism as a political/economic system. We're talking about the great stereotypes that come with communism, and that means fur hats, red stars, Russian accents, and jokes about greedy capitalist bourgeois [pigs/dogs]. Never mind that European communism has been kaput for over a decade.

The actual political/economic/religious orientation of the supervillain in question is usually irrelevant. It's all about the speeches, accent, and costuming. A name like "Red Oktober" or "Nuclear Winter" just adds flavor. Really, all villains of the FF mold have plots reducing to taking money from people or killing them. Whether the stolen funds go into personal coffers or just get destroyed are beyond the scope of the action.

So yeah, bring on more supervillains. The more supervillains in one room, especially if they're ideologically opposed, the more chances there are for great cutscenes.

 

[Kortalh]

Actually I've been lurking and finally registered a week or so ago. Never really had anything worthwhile to add to a conversation before now. :wink:

I understand completely, and I agree with you. Heck, I make fun of the Russian Communist stereotype all the time (and not so long ago I slaughtered a million of 'em in Freedom Fighters, a tactical shooter game)

My reason for posting was intended to be educational more than as an instigation of argument (though after reading it again, I suppose it didn't come out that way). After decades of thrashing by the U.S. government, people associate Communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism... which is ironic, because it's the exact opposite. I simply want for people to look at it as an equal political belief - whether a person agrees with it or not.

 

[Greenskin13]

My reason for posting was intended to be educational more than as an instigation of argument (though after reading it again, I suppose it didn't come out that way). After decades of thrashing by the U.S. government, people associate Communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism... which is ironic, because it's the exact opposite. I simply want for people to look at it as an equal political belief - whether a person agrees with it or not.

Yes, but that wouldn't really jive with the whole comic book setting of Freedom Force. Most comics (cept the revolutionary ones like Watchmen) have a very defined line of good and evil, and evil is usually represented in a tongue-in-cheek fasion. While this may not be acurate to the true beliefs of communism, I think for FF it's better this way.

 

[Kortalh]

But at the same time, what would be the general person's response if they found a game where the evil Dr. Rosenburg, a Jewish mad scientist, was the main villain. Throw in all the stereotypes - the curly mustache, the stacks of money - and make him look like Mel Brooks.

If that were the case, would people be so quick to say "It may not be accurate to the true beliefs of Judaism, but it's better this way for this game"? I wouldn't be surprised if the Jewish community filed a lawsuit against the company for defamation.

Yet ironically enough, if the targeted minority is Communists, the general consensus is that "it's all in good fun" or "it works out better this way to paint them in a bad light".

I understand everyone else's point of view, and I'm not at all insulted (heck, what kinda leftist would I be if I tried to censor someone else's opinion?), but I do find it an incredibly amusing statement on the nature of humanity.

 

[Vault Dweller]

After decades of thrashing by the U.S. government, people associate Communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism... which is ironic, because it's the exact opposite. I simply want for people to look at it as an equal political belief - whether a person agrees with it or not.

Well, people associate communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism not because of US clever campaigns, but because that's what communist states excelled at. That was their method of controlling population and dealing with problems, and that's, unfortunately, a fact. As for communism's right for an equal political belief, it's hard to take it seriously and equally considering that it never worked as advertised. No offence intended to you, of course.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If that were the case, would people be so quick to say "It may not be accurate to the true beliefs of Judaism, but it's better this way for this game"? I wouldn't be surprised if the Jewish community filed a lawsuit against the company for defamation.

Yet ironically enough, if the targeted minority is Communists, the general consensus is that "it's all in good fun" or "it works out better this way to paint them in a bad light".

You are comparing nationalities to political system and governments. If the villain is a crazy Russian guy, it would be nothing, if it's a crazy communist from the golden days of Communism and Cold War, then it's a riot. Same with Nazi, it's not about Germans, it's about period when they threatened the world while doing some crazy occult things and mad experiments. Jews and Israelis are not big enough or crazy enough to qualify for the super villains' title, just like brits and french aren't. No, it's communist vs nazies vs uncle sam's boys

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I understand completely, and I agree with you. Heck, I make fun of the Russian Communist stereotype all the time (and not so long ago I slaughtered a million of 'em in Freedom Fighters, a tactical shooter game)

My reason for posting was intended to be educational more than as an instigation of argument (though after reading it again, I suppose it didn't come out that way). After decades of thrashing by the U.S. government, people associate Communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism... which is ironic, because it's the exact opposite. I simply want for people to look at it as an equal political belief - whether a person agrees with it or not.

Or the Chinese communists.. Or the Vietnamese communists.. Or North Korean communists.. Or Cuban communists.. Or the Santanistas.. Or.. Well, pretty much all of them. I don't think anyone here needs to be educated on how communist governments have typically been bad in their various implimentations by various nations.

 

[Spazmo]

I think the game isn't so much making fun of communism as they are making fun of communist paranoia in the western world of the time, which was downright hilarious.

 

[Azael]

Actually I've been lurking and finally registered a week or so ago. Never really had anything worthwhile to add to a conversation before now. :wink:

I understand completely, and I agree with you. Heck, I make fun of the Russian Communist stereotype all the time (and not so long ago I slaughtered a million of 'em in Freedom Fighters, a tactical shooter game)

My reason for posting was intended to be educational more than as an instigation of argument (though after reading it again, I suppose it didn't come out that way). After decades of thrashing by the U.S. government, people associate Communism with genocide, dictatorship, and facism... which is ironic, because it's the exact opposite. I simply want for people to look at it as an equal political belief - whether a person agrees with it or not.

Yes, we all know that communist governments turn out peachy, just look at...well, there would be good examples if it weren't for human nature. It's human nature that's flawed I tell you! Human nature, not the ideology!

 

[Kortalh]

If you don't include the flour when baking cookies, you end up with a pile of mush. The same thing happens if you decide to add three cups of water - mush.

If you show me a government that has actually implimented Communism - not just a pile of mush - and has still failed, then I'll change my point of view. Until then, arguing with me isn't going to do anything... You're not going to make me believe Capitalism is a better system, and I obviously won't make you think Communism is the better one.

I only posted here in the hopes that people would look at it as an acceptable alternate point of view, not as some sort of crazy plot thought up by Hitler and put into practice by Stalin in an effort to conquer the world.

 

[Elwro]

Having lived in communism for a part of my life, I vote for more communist supervillains, especially in games like this one.

 

[Spazmo]

Heh... Yeah, it's funny how the people who support communism most vocally are those who have lived all their life in the capitalist western world.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You are right, Capitalism isn't a better system theoretically, but unlike Communism it works. The results differ and depend on implementation, mentality, culture, etc, but overall it definitely works. Communism failed. You can assume that your party happen knows the correct formula, but have you looked at the history and analyzed the reasons why it failed? Perpetuum mobile (sp?) is a great concept too, but unfortunately the nature of physics of the Earth's yellow sun doesn't support this idea. Same with Communism. The idea is good, it's been around for awhile dating back to at least More and Campanella. Overall, I respect your beliefs and hopes for a better society, but it's arrogance to think that you'd succeed where so many have failed, especially when the price would be paid in mysery and misfortune of other people.

If you wish to educate people, explain your position, don't just say they didn't do it correctly, but we will. Support your position with arguments.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'd like to see more capitalist terrorists, like the supervilliain in Phantom 2040, or the fat bald corporate tyrant in the new Spiderman comic. I don't think Freedom Force had any capitalist villains. The mafia does not count.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Spazmo, the reason for that is because those people who do support communism while living in the West have been victimized in various ways by Capitalism, or have seen friends of theirs victimized through the loss of jobs for no other reason than to 'reshuffle' the company so it makes a few more dollars in profit while some rich marketing bastard spends a cool million in a single week on absolutely nothing important. Ask the marketing bastard for a few thosuand dollars in funds for your software development project and he'll say the company's running short on cash. I wonder why that is.

Anyway, to be fair it should be said that most if not all of the so-called communist run nations in the world have been so much more like fascist capitalists (with the government taking all of the money without redistributing it to the people) than as communists. Stalin was a hypocrite, any communist living in his time outside of the Soviet Union would have told you that. Orwell himself, who was in the MI5 was also a Marxist (or was purported to be one based on his writings) and he himself made these observations.

Lenin was a pretty good leader, by the way. Before Lenin, the whole of Russia was being destroyed because of the greed of the Tzars. Lenin bullt the foundations of the Soviet Union and Stalin, having him imprisoned and poisoned, saw it as an opportunity to play dictator. It's pretty terrible, what happened. True democracy suffers from that sort of vulnerability - it's just plain easy to exploit. It doesn't change the fact that Communism is a damn good ideal and it'd work out damn well, if there was a neutral outside force to stop people like Stalin from exploiting the system.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You are right, Capitalism isn't a better system theoretically, but unlike Communism it works.

Untrue. It only works in some places - like America and Western Europe, and some parts of Asia but there are many other parts in the world where capitalism has achieved the exact opposite of success - it failed. Africa is a damn fine example of what Capitalism can do to a place. It's full of greed, deceit and corruption and guess what, everybody there is a capitalist. It failed in the Phillipines and Indonesia where most people were exploited by huge corporations in ways which are so much worse than anywhere else in the world. Malaysia too is exploited to a degree, a little more than Taiwan... but Chinese culture keeps it from becoming an orgy of pure exploitation. Filipinos and Indons just don't have that in their cultures.

Capitalism has also failed South America as much as any Communist regime has. Big time. Just look at Brazil and its deficit, or the various militants in Colombia all vying for control over the natural resources. That's Capiitalism for you. Really, on a micro-scale it might seem like Communism was a whole lot worse than anything, especially when you place the magnifying glass over the ruins of the Soviet Union. But on the Macro-scale, both have failed just as badly - and capitalism is still fucking the world. Fat Amerikan needs to eat, so poor Filipino boy chews off one of his hands so he doesn't starve to death while the other hand sews a shirt for the Gap.

Just learned: In Africa, every person has been robbed at least once. For every few victims there is a perpetrator. It's a continent of assholes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Lenin was a pretty good leader, by the way. Before Lenin, the whole of Russia was being destroyed because of the greed of the Tzars. Lenin bullt the foundations of the Soviet Union and Stalin, having him imprisoned and poisoned, saw it as an opportunity to play dictator.

That's not really what happened. The Russia was in a better shape during the Tzars, it was a place where european professionals used to come to make careers. Lenin rallied up the workers with a popular slogan "why work when we can plunder" and took power. He ordered the murder of the Tzar's family including the kids, killed everybody who oppose him including non-violent opposition. Then Stalin saw a chance to hijack the power and things got even worse. They stolen tremendous amounts of money from anybody who had any, and that's a lot of money from such a big place, and used it to run the country. After 70 years they ran out of money. The end.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Untrue. It only works in some places - like America and Western Europe, and some parts of Asia but there are many other parts in the world where capitalism has achieved the exact opposite of success - it failed.

I said it works, not worked every time. But the fact that it worked in America, WE, and parts of Asia, but didn't in some other place points that the problems is in the implementation, not the system itself. Just like software.

 

[Kortalh]

I would argue that it didn't succeed in America at all. I can't speak for Western Europe as I've never been there, but I know America inside and out.

The biggest problem with Capitalism is that once a person earns a million dollars, they don't spend it. They spend $100,000 and put the other $900,000 in a bank, where it only gains interest. That same $900,000 could feed 90,000 people for a day. But in America, the rich people don't have just $1million. They have $100million. They spend $10million of that on their home, their cars, whatever... and the other $90million sits tucked away in the bank.

How many educations would that pay for? How many people would that feed? How many new homes would it build?

And I'm not talking about giving away their money. It's not that I expect them to give up what they've earned, it's that they simply don't buy anything with it. Once you have enough money to buy yourself and your family everything they could ever want or need, what do you do with the rest of the money? There's nothing left to buy, so you put it in the bank for a "rainy day".

And then, of course, there's the problem with a lower-class person gaining a foothold in wealth - and this is my favorite, because those that are pro-capitalism always use this as their prime reason that capitalism is best. How does that quote go.... "In a capitalist society, a person can come up with an idea and make himself a millionaire".

Here's an example from my home town. There was a company, called Eastbay, that sold sports equipment and clothing for reasonable prices. It started out small, and grew to a respectable size - selling all over the state, and perhaps even further. Then one day, Footlocker caught wind of this company. They couldn't let some local-yokel company spring up and take such a huge portion of their sales! So they had two options - build a store of their own and inevitably run Eastbay out of business with their superior advertising ability and their practically limitless cash reserves, or buy out the store.

Footlocker decided to buy out Eastbay. The owner, of course, said "I know that if I tried to compete against you, I would fail miserably, so I'll take your $1,000,000 and live the rest of my life a happy man."

Immediately after the purchase, Footlocker closed three retail stores, one warehouse, and fired everyone that worked at those places. Since the buy-out, Footlocker has made at least three times as much as they paid the Eastbay owner - money that he could have made himself, if Footlocker hadn't noticed him in the first place.

So I say again, I do not feel that Capitalism works in America at all. When 44 companies ( http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/ ) have made themselves rich by trampling on the backs of the poor, it does not sound like success to me.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I would argue that it didn't succeed in America at all. I can't speak for Western Europe as I've never been there, but I know America inside and out.

The biggest problem with Capitalism is that once a person earns a million dollars, they don't spend it. They spend $100,000 and put the other $900,000 in a bank, where it only gains interest. That same $900,000 could feed 90,000 people for a day. But in America, the rich people don't have just $1million. They have $100million. They spend $10million of that on their home, their cars, whatever... and the other $90million sits tucked away in the bank.

Those banks also lend out that money to other people, and the person who put that money in the bank gets a share of the interest the banks get for those loans. Also, most of those people also invent in the markets, which gives other companies equity to expand and create jobs.

How many educations would that pay for? How many people would that feed? How many new homes would it build?

What's the point of further education if you're going to earn roughly the same rate as the uneducated farmer or factory worker?

Immediately after the purchase, Footlocker closed three retail stores, one warehouse, and fired everyone that worked at those places. Since the buy-out, Footlocker has made at least three times as much as they paid the Eastbay owner - money that he could have made himself, if Footlocker hadn't noticed him in the first place.

Yet, under communism, he would have never founded that company in the first place. At least with Capitalism, the guy founded the company, made money, and employeed people until Footlocker showed up.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I would argue that it didn't succeed in America at all....So I say again, I do not feel that Capitalism works in America at all. When 44 companies have made themselves rich by trampling on the backs of the poor, it does not sound like success to me

The goal of capitalism is to build capitals to put it simply. From that point of view it works perfectly. It never promised to make everyone rich and happy, did it? You may disagree with that approach and argue in favour of a better system, but saying that it doesn't work is incorrect. Your example with Footlocker clearly shows that it does :wink:

The biggest problem with Capitalism is that once a person earns a million dollars, they don't spend it. They spend $100,000 and put the other $900,000 in a bank, where it only gains interest.

That's a very childish philososphy. As SP pointed out, banks use that money to finance other businesses like Eastbay for example, invest in new ideas and technologies that would in turn lead to new businesses that would create jobs and growth opportunities for other people and so on. Of course banks do it for their own selfish reasons but the end results are positive.

That same $900,000 could feed 90,000 people for a day.

Why can't these other people feed themselves?

How many educations would that pay for? How many people would that feed? How many new homes would it build?

The best education is the one you paid for yourself. That way you appreciate it more. I work with small businesses. Every day I see simple folks who chose to succeed and work hard to do that. I also see a lot of people who wait for somebody to take care of them. Why somebody should?

And I'm not talking about giving away their money. It's not that I expect them to give up what they've earned, it's that they simply don't buy anything with it.

So what do you expect?

And then, of course, there's the problem with a lower-class person gaining a foothold in wealth - and this is my favorite, because those that are pro-capitalism always use this as their prime reason that capitalism is best.

I know many people who start a business for one reason only, to develop it and sell it to a bigger company. Nothing wrong with that. It's their choice to make that is supported by the system. It's a pity that some people lost their jobs, but that how it works. Like I said it's not a perfect system, but unlike Communism it's the one that works.

 

[voodoo1man]

Lenin was a pretty good leader, by the way. Before Lenin, the whole of Russia was being destroyed because of the greed of the Tzars. Lenin bullt the foundations of the Soviet Union and Stalin, having him imprisoned and poisoned, saw it as an opportunity to play dictator.

That's not really what happened. The Russia was in a better shape during the Tzars, it was a place where european professionals used to come to make careers. Lenin rallied up the workers with a popular slogan "why work when we can plunder" and took power. He ordered the murder of the Tzar's family including the kids, killed everybody who oppose him including non-violent opposition. Then Stalin saw a chance to hijack the power and things got even worse. They stolen tremendous amounts of money from anybody who had any, and that's a lot of money from such a big place, and used it to run the country. After 70 years they ran out of money. The end.

Wow... I didn't know Lenin colonized Russia! What an accomplishment - I don't think anyone's been able to do that for the past several millenia.

Regarding FFVTTR: how are they going to integrate the evil Commies as the enemies of the Allies when they were practically fighting the European front* single-handedly from 1941-1943? I certainly hope they're not taking any examples from Bioware.

* - Fun Facts: There was no European front in 1940, Africa wasn't a front, Rommel was Rommel, the British lived up to their pansy stereotypes, and Churchill proved himself to be an asshole.