Review ToEE beaten down by GameOver

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil

<A href="http://www.game-over.net/">GameOver</a> gives <A href="http://www.greyhawkgame.com">Temple of Elemental Evil</a> a hardy spanking in <A href="http://www.game-over.net/reviews.php?id=879">their review</A>, going so far as to say it's the <i>second worst CRPG the reviewer has ever played</i>. Here's a bit of the criticism:
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<blockquote>Of course, you might want to avoid TTOEE anyway. It?s definitely not a friendly game. Among other things TTOEE doesn?t give you any difficulty settings (other than an ?ironman? mode that only allows you to save when you exit), and Troika seems to have decided to emulate the Dungeons & Dragons version 3.5 rules as closely as possible, without taking into account whether the rules make the game fun to play or not. So, for example, there isn?t a friendly toggle to guarantee your characters get a good hit point role when they level. If you want to make sure they get close to their maximum, you have to save and restore a lot, which is boring. Also, every little potion and scroll in the game needs to be identified, but there isn?t any sort of lore ability to handle the task for you, and identify spells cost you 100 gold. That combination just seems mean and cruel. Plus, there isn?t any sort of teleportation system, so you have to do a lot of walking, and the game won?t cast any healing spells for you when you rest, so healing your party can be a long and tedious task, especially since there are very few safe places to rest in the game.</blockquote>
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Well, there is a teleportation system, actually. There's a spell that does it.
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Spotted this at <A href="Http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's News</a>.

 

[HanoverF]

ToEE also refuses to wipe my ass when I go to the bathroom :/

 

[Voss]

No lore and paying for services...its a game breaker for sure. And gods forbid you have to cast healing spells yourself- its so hard with the shift-click spontaneous cures (for good clerics anyway) too.
And there is some good dialogue, though a lot of Hommlet does fall down on that score.

On the other paw, I do have to agree with him a bit on the idea that it isn't much of an RPG. A fantasy dungeon crawl action thingy, sure. And a fun one, but not much on the role.

But then again, you don't have to keep the fucking *THE* in the acronym.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

No lore and paying for services...its a game breaker for sure. And gods forbid you have to cast healing spells yourself- its so hard with the shift-click spontaneous cures (for good clerics anyway) too.

I think he's bitching about the fact that resting to heal doesn't take in to account using spells while resting, which is rather stupid considering there's no time limits in ToEE. What does it really matter if the number on the indicator when you click "Rest until healed" says 3 or 9? Makes no difference to the game itself, so why even bother bitching about this?

And there is some good dialogue, though a lot of Hommlet does fall down on that score.

PS:T is probably the only D&D game with better dialogue in terms of mechanics of the game itself. And honestly, that's all I care about for the most part. I could give a shit if it's straight prose or more artsy so long as I can see an impact from the build of my character being used in the dialogue.

On the other paw, I do have to agree with him a bit on the idea that it isn't much of an RPG. A fantasy dungeon crawl action thingy, sure. And a fun one, but not much on the role.

Well, like most D&D games, the role is that of a combat guy or guys. I think the only problem with the "role" stuff is the lack of towns and things to do in those towns. More people to talk to and more stuff to do would have been nice.

 

[Ausir]

Seems like he doesn't know about the Read Magic spell too, which is free...

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I just think he wanted to be a crybaby.

 

[Voss]

PS:T is probably the only D&D game with better dialogue in terms of mechanics of the game itself. And honestly, that's all I care about for the most part. I could give a shit if it's straight prose or more artsy so long as I can see an impact from the build of my character being used in the dialogue.

Wasn't so much a matter of prose/artsy as it was of bad dialogue in some cases, and a 'who the hell talks like that?' factor (even people that try for the pseudo-medieval dialogue). And of course, some of the voice actors aggravated already stale lines with piss poor reads.

Well, like most D&D games, the role is that of a combat guy or guys. I think the only problem with the "role" stuff is the lack of towns and things to do in those towns. More people to talk to and more stuff to do would have been nice.

Combat guy is a bit one dimensional for my taste. You can't really show any sense of personality at all. And to tie it in to the dialogue; even a band of ruthless, CE mass murderers (and since you start the CE route standing over butchered peasants, the party obviously at least dabbles in killing sprees) is stuck with dialogue trees that wander into Mr Rogers on happy pills territory- "And good day to you, kind sir, I would like to chat about the wonders of rural farm life. May I borrow your tea cozy?" And in some cases, it isn't even an option- polite society is the only choice you have.

 

[EEVIAC]

I think he's bitching about the fact that resting to heal doesn't take in to account using spells while resting, which is rather stupid considering there's no time limits in ToEE. What does it really matter if the number on the indicator when you click "Rest until healed" says 3 or 9? Makes no difference to the game itself, so why even bother bitching about this?

The resting for days process actually assisted in my immersion in the game. There were a few times, notably when leaving the moathouse or having made a run on a certain part of the temple, where I'd wander back to my house in Nulb, hoping and praying that I wasn't accosted on the way, and have to rest for a few days. I actually felt like I'd gotten my arse kicked (which I had) and getting an arse-kicking was serious business.

 

[Volourn]

You got your arse kicked in TOEE? Wowsers!

Anyways, the review exaggerates. besides, for being such a horrible game, he sure gave it a decent rating. Go figure.

 

[taks]

uh, i think ya'll missed the guys point. he was griping that there wasn't an option to do some of those other things. sometimes you just don't want to try to sleep for 9 days to heal (rarely possible except in the inns).

you're right, s_p, no lore or knowledge (*) isn't a game breaker... it's just flat out annoying (though i must admit his whining about the 100GP identify shows a lack of understanding rules). it isn't one little annoying thing that breaks the game... it's the documented 200+ annoying little things that break the game, IMO.

mark

 

[Voss]

Well, lets see. If you don't want to sleep for 9 days to heal, theres always the option of casting heal spells on yourself, drinking potions, paying for potions, scrolls or healing spells....

 

[taks]

it's called a "hassle" voss... that was his gripe.
mark

 

[Voss]

Casting spells is a hassle? Oh.

I guess I can't be bothered to cast fireball in fights anymore.
Its just too much to deal with.

I know, I'll go watch Dungeon Siege instead...

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I know, I'll go watch Dungeon Siege instead...

LOL

It's such a wonderfully bland interactive movie, isn't it?

 

[EEVIAC]

You got your arse kicked in TOEE? Wowsers!

It depends on party construction. As I've stated before, making highly optimized combat-effective characters/parties, doesn't really interest me. I don't bother with NPC's either.

 

[Volourn]

So, you know my pary make up? WOWSERS! And, I never bothered with joinable npcs in TOEE either so here ya go. And, if someone decides to make an all bard party; they deserve to have a difficult time of it. No mercy for the stupid, or the experimenters.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

it's called a "hassle" voss... that was his gripe.

How is it a hassle? You hit the same button and the resting takes the same amount of time to the user. The only thing that's any different is the number displayed on the resting screen.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Yes, buttons are the eeeeebil things which hassle us all around.

 

[Vault Dweller]

it's called a "hassle" voss... that was his gripe.

How is it a hassle? You hit the same button and the resting takes the same amount of time to the user. The only thing that's any different is the number displayed on the resting screen.

Careful, Saint, explaining your point of view could be seen as rabid fanboism

btw, look at some of the posts by vault dweller and saint proverbius. i'd hardly say all of the diehards aren't still exhibiting rabid fanboism...

http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.p ... ht=#581462

Okay I went to my local game store today and ran into some of the avid drooling lunitics...and I was suddenly reminded of ToEE/Troika fanbois....It reminded me of the arguement about NPC's stupid looting tactics in ToEE I had with a fanbois...which went him going don't use them with me going but I want to use them and not be completely gimped because i do...

sounds like you musta been arguing with s_p... or wait, maybe v_d... no, there's more...

http://forums.interplay.com/viewtopic.php?t=34540

 

[EEVIAC]

So, you know my pary make up? WOWSERS! And, I never bothered with joinable npcs in TOEE either so here ya go. And, if someone decides to make an all bard party; they deserve to have a difficult time of it. No mercy for the stupid, or the experimenters.

Was that directed at me? I know my party make-up, and I know that on one particular play through I picked feats I thought sounded "interesting" rather than feats that were actually usefull. Subsequent adventures/adventurers have had a signifigantly easier time of it.

By the way, is this the point where I get to call you cunt, and then we parry back and forth with meaningless posts, in the way you've obviously found so appealing in the past?

 

[Volourn]

You can call me what you want; but no need since I only do that with certain people. You seem to be much more relaxed in your views than others. , also, don't always choose the best combat feats. I choose feats that I think fits the character. I do that for all games. It's not my feat choice, or party make up that made the game easy for me; it's the simplicity of the creature's AI that does.

 

[Elwro]

I think that part of the message conveyed by the reviewer is that the healers don't cast healing spells while the party is resting, so the only way to recover lost HPs is by natural reconvalescence. If that was the only option (I didn't play ToEE yet so I don't know), it would suck a little bit, because even EOB1 asked "Should the healers heal the party?" and acted accordingly. But if it doesn't actually mean anything more than resting a few hours longer, it's forgivable.

 

[Chadeo]

For me, I think the reason why the initial dialog was such a huge turn off was specifically because the game raised my expectations with the multiple starts based on alignment. After all if the game goes out of its way to give your evil party a reason for going to this town, one would expect it to continue on with that same style. Instead you are forced to act like a generic “adventuring party”. Thus by the time I was able to even get to the “evil” city, I had already lost all sense that I was playing any kind of evil party.

This is because, like most games, you are penalized for not doing the various quests in the town, even if your party should have no interest in doing them. In TOEE you have to deal with the moathouse, but doing so is far easier after you have completed various town quests. While the experience and “phat loot” you gain from the town is rather minor, it is still experience that only the typical “good guys who love to help random people with their issues” party can get. In fact in the entire first town I can only really find two quests that even have an evil element to them. One of them is only gotten when you “work with” the church, something that some parties (like the NE party) should not want to do.

To be fair this is something that almost every single RPG gets wrong, and to some extent the presence of at least some evil options is welcome, I still feel that the entire opening to TOEE first builds up expectations, and then causes them to come crashing down.

Oh and when I fianly got to the "evil town" the fact that I had wiped out this bandit group and then was offered to join them by some guys in the “evil town" also ruined any sense of immersion I had in the game. I would have been fine with assuming that the town just did not know that the bandit group had been wiped out, and thus they still were recruiting for them, but no, the town is well aware that they were all killed, yet STILL goes about recruiting for them.

Even the fact that there is a "good town" and "evil town" bugs me. It feels so forced. Perhaps this is because the game world is so small, but it still feels very contrived to me.

I guess it does not help matters that I am entirely burnt out by the bland, overused, and oh so typical medieval setting that d&d games seem to always take place in. (Yet another area where Torment showed what was possible)

Also, while I agree that the healing thing does not matter because you have no time limit, this fact is not clear from the game. I tried to minimize the amount of time I rested, assuming that if I did not deal with the temple in a timely manner it would get out of hand. So it is possible that the reviewer felt the same way, and thus did not just use natural healing in an attempt to speed things up.

 

[GreenNight]

Well I have NEVER done all the quests in Hommlet. In fact I have only tried to do any of them ONCE (all, but got stuck, with a party). And I have never felt that I had any disavantage. Take in consideration that I (almost) allways play Ironman.

Perhaps if I try a solo Ironman I will lose the time for the exp, but otherwise I find the quests too boring (killing is easier and more fun).

About being a good and a bad town, I think there are good and bad people on both, just there is more of one type in one, and more of the other on the second one.

Uhmmmm perhaps I will play again today, it's been a long time.

 

[Jed]

Nice post, Chadeo. Critical and thoughtful, what we do best here--when we're at our best, at least. Probably doesn't need to pointed out, but I'm sure those who accuse those of us who inhabit this site of "selective listening" will themselves never acknowledge this kind of criticism that we direct against the games we do like and support, and will be happy to continue to fling invectives of "elitist," "fanboy," and "biased" our way. Whatever; those morons come and go--with an exception here and there--and in the end don't add up to much but flame fodder.