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Editorial Back in my day we used to fight rats!

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,360
Tags: Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

"In a rare occasion since I've pretty much stopped writing, I'll be taking a look at the RPG genre</a>; what it means, where we have gone with it, and what to expect out of it" or so say HellForge with their article <a href="http://hellforge.gameriot.com/blogs/Caveat-Emptor/RPGs-How-far-have-we-come">RPGs: How far have we come?</a>:
<br>
<blockquote>I know for the RPG community that there is a definite sense of nostalgia when RPGers get together to talk about "good" RPG games. Most, if not all, will cite an ancient classic. Maybe Planescape: Torment, or Baldur's Gate, or TESII: Daggerfall. They'll maybe even take a punch or a stab at the more current RPGs of today, citing about how "terrible" Oblivion is, or of what little choices you can make in Neverwinter Nights 2. What I can't help but think after finally being able to play "the classics" is if this group of people can actually hear themselves talking.
<br>
[...]
<br>
In Oblivion, you start off as a prisoner, choosing only your race and appearance from the very start of the game. As you are in your cell the game's story unfolds before you; right off the bat you have a sense of direction to follow (mostly because there is only one way out of the prison) and you also understand the underlying purposes that something big is unfolding here (you are, after all, in the presence of an Emperor). From the point you exit the sewers to the last Oblivion gate you close, you are never actually confused on what you should do. Of course, a handy compass and a quest directional arrow certainly helps that bit out, but you never actually lose an interest in playing the game because you know what to do at all times.
<br>
[...]
<br>
You see, in Oblivion, there IS a sense of adventure. Want to know why? Because the environment is immersible. It's beautiful.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Modern RPGs are better because morons don't get confused. Also they have shiney graphics. Remember kids, you heard that at Hellforge first. The article is decently long though and goes over quite a few RPG tropes / cliches / whatever you educated types want to call them.
<br>
<br>
Spotted @ <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com">GameBanshee</a>
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
1,878,514
Location
Djibouti
I chucked Baldur's Gate to the side after a half hour into the game, lost, and constantly getting killed. That cryptic journal with zero directions wasn't "fun" either.

In fact, if Oblivion didn't have that environment, then I would've chucked it to the side with Baldur's Gate as well.

I'm sorry, but Jeremy Soule's music cannot save old Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale from tales of boredom when reading long lists of dialogue, not to mention that you are much more likely to retain what you hear instead of what you read (back to Morrowind quest directions...GAH!).

facepalm2.jpg
 

Fyz

Scholar
Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
160
I chucked Baldur's Gate to the side after a half hour into the game, lost, and constantly getting killed. That cryptic journal with zero directions wasn't "fun" either.
I think that writing a good, useful journal is a challenge for the devs/writers. BioWare managed to nail it quite good, I didn't have any problems finding direction in any of the BW games I've played (BG1-2, NWN).
Bethesda however did a rather crappy job in Morrowind. I've found a huge part of the journal entries confusing and useless. They simply sucked at giving the proper directions. Of course it's an open world games, but oddly enough I've never had a problem finding the dungeon the journal is refering to in old open world games like MM6-7-8.
In the end, seeing that they were unable to write proper journals, and that mainstream kids won't bother to spend hours searching for the dungeon they're supposed to go they decided to add the stupid compass.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Finnegan's Wake
In Oblivion, you start off as a prisoner, choosing only your race and appearance from the very start of the game. As you are in your cell the game's story unfolds before you; right off the bat you have a sense of direction to follow (mostly because there is only one way out of the prison) and you also understand the underlying purposes that something big is unfolding here (you are, after all, in the presence of an Emperor). From the point you exit the sewers to the last Oblivion gate you close, you are never actually confused on what you should do. Of course, a handy compass and a quest directional arrow certainly helps that bit out, but you never actually lose an interest in playing the game because you know what to do at all times.
citing about how terrible Oblivion is
 

Andyman Messiah

Mr. Ed-ucated
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
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Location
Narnia
That entire article is proof that we need to limit life to but a select few, mainly the few that doesn't believe a journal entry like "GO TO FRIENDLY ARMS INN, MEET JAHEIRA & KHALID" is cryptic or filled with zero directions. Seriously dude, what the fuck is wrong with you?
 

wrathofdog

Scholar
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
538
I chucked Baldur's Gate to the side after a half hour into the game, lost, and constantly getting killed. That cryptic journal with zero directions wasn't "fun" either.

In fact, if Oblivion didn't have that environment, then I would've chucked it to the side with Baldur's Gate as well.

Funny, I chucked Oblivion after a couple of hours because it was impossible to get lost. Always being able to see that fucking tower was infuriating. Getting lost was the best part of Morrowind.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Hory said:
pipka said:
Getting lost was the best part of Morrowind.
and Daggerfall
Then they must be pretty shitty games.
Daggerfall is a shitty game, but it's very difficult to get lost in it.

It's just a bunch of standard modules connected together, and you have a detailed minimap that you can track all over to find where you started.
 

BethesdaLove

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
1,998
by Agamemnon, Level 29!!!!111

Name:
David Renna

Location:
Hollywood, Florida, US

Birthday:
Mar 18, 1989
 

Yannos

Educated
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
Messages
57
Location
Belgium
The problem is that this idiot probably played the modern games first, got used to the foolproof handholding mechanics and then went to the older games. Are people's attention span so small these days that they can't even read a few lines of text unless some B-grade voice actors does it for them?

Baldurs gate tells you multiple times that you need to go to friendly arms inn and lo and behold, what do you see on your worldmap when you exit the first screen? A huge castle titled "The friendly Arms Inn". It's not that hard to put 1 and 1 together.

I do agree on his Morrowind point. I hated having to follow the instructions from my journal when I had to find a house (fuck you, Cassius Cossades). Putting some markers on important locations (like BG2) would have been great. Another thing I would have liked in Morrowind is not naming the uninmportant wikipedia like npc's. Just call 'm Commoner or something because it's hard to find a guy with a complicated name when everyone has a name that ALMOST sounds the same... (or maybe I'm stupid)
 

BearBomber

Scholar
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
566
Baldurs gate tells you multiple times that you need to go to friendly arms inn

To make matters worse it was told in an unskipable cut scene so it was impossible to miss.
 

Turok

Erudite
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Messages
1,056
Location
Venezuela
but you never actually lose an interest in playing the game because you know what to do at all times

When you are lost on a game, it force you to EXPLORE the enviroment, thats make the game more interest you moron.

Who dont like discover something??? is natural in humans to like discover stuff.

If you have a fucking arrow that tell you what to do, why do you play? Is better have some book (journal) that give you a hint.

For god sake, why post this shit here?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9207

Finally had a chance to play Dungeon Siege 2. The game sucks for all the reasons Saint mentioned here and then some, but that's not the point.

So, I'm playing the demo and get the quest to destroy 4 towers that don't really look like towers worth making so much fuss about, but that's not the point either. I look in my trusty journal and see "Find the first Morden tower and burn it down" (or something like that). Ok. Then I see "Find the second Morden tower and burn it down just like first tower". Hmm, Ok. Then "Find the third Morden tower and burn it down just like first and the second towers" and finally "Find the fourth Morden tower and burn it down just like first, second, and the third tower".

At this point a valid question is "what is the target audience?" Clearly some poor ADD motherfuckers are a big part of it. It's like you play the game, burn down the first tower, see something shiny which the game doesn't have the shortage of, and then see some weird tower-like structure and have no clue why it's there. You check the journal and suddenly you start recalling burning down one of those suckers. A-ha! You know what to do now! So, you play some more, and see a weird tower-like structure. You get this feeling that you've already seen it before and somehow it's important to you, but you don't have a fucking clue. Thank God, you wrote something on your hand - find teh journal, don't trust teh skull! You click on the journal icon and read "...just like the first, second, and the third tower!" Tada! The unplayable game is playable once again! Another idiot can appreciate the beauty and creativity of Dungeon Siege 2: The Bourne Identity!

Read the thread for extra drama and a duel with Sol "I'll tell all of you elitist fucks!" Invictus.
 

Crolug

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
104
Location
Panamá
We got a proverb in Poland:

"Idiots aren't sown, they grow by themselves"

That "RPG expert" suits it perfectly...
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
You see, in Oblivion, there IS a sense of adventure. Want to know why? Because the environment is immersible.

As in it can be flushed down the toilet?
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
Twinfalls said:
You see, in Oblivion, there IS a sense of adventure. Want to know why? Because the environment is immersible.

As in it can be flushed down the toilet?

I was gonna make a joke about how the Titanic was finally proven to be immersible as well.
 

Durwyn

Prophet
Joined
Oct 29, 2006
Messages
1,132
Location
Erewhon
Crolug said:
We got a proverb in Poland:

"Idiots aren't sown, they grow by themselves"

We have ? I haven't heard it, but maybe I know it in different version.

Must check this hellforge once in a while... It sounds like a couple of masterpieces can be found there
 

Rohit_N

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
876
Location
Houston, Texas
Serpent in the Staglands Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Games like Doom and Wolfenstein 3D are hailed as "classics" in the FPS genre, but the question remains; do they stack up to current FPS games? And the answer, obviously, is no. A resounding hell no in fact. It comes down to a choice, and if you had a choice to have a filet migon dinner versus a dog crap dinner, then it's not going to be a very hard choice to choose, now is it?
Gah.
 

Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Doom shits on current FPSes.

FPSes are about shooting things.

Modern FPSes don't even have any killing at all.

You just sit and watch second-rate cinematics.
 

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