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RPG Roundtable Part II with Jeff Vogel

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Tags: Jeff Vogel

Here is <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/474/474733p1.html>more stuff</a>. In case you missed part one, it's <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3375>right here</a>.
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<blockquote><b>Dungeon Siege II designer</b>: A more disconcerting ramification might be the simplification of the complex tactical combat of PC RPGs. Knights of the Old Republic was a step down from the Baldur's Gate series in terms of tactical complexity, and Morrowind offered fewer combat options than other RPGs. The entertainment value of an RPG for many players is based upon the interesting choices that combat presents them, and due to the lack of a mouse, it's difficult to manage a squad of characters simultaneously on a console the way you would on a PC.
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<b>Jeff Vogel</b>: When I started writing my own little RPGs a decade ago, it was because we were in a drought in the genre, in the dark days before Fallout and Diablo. And, looking around, I think we're heading in that direction again in the single-player area. The sad shutdown of Black Isle is not a good sign. At least BioWare is still making good games with lightsabers. I wish there was a single-player game in the last year that really grabbed me in the way that say Baldur's Gate II did. But nothing new really got me excited (though I still need to play Knights of the Old Republic). Oh well. Maybe next year.
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<b>Some guy from Tilted Mill</b>: While scripted events in games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout are cool, and provided strategy twists or holes to climb out, they don't compare to the emotion experienced in the first-person perspective. The level of personal satisfaction is not the same when I tactically resolve a battle in games like those two.
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Playing the ASCII rogue-like ADOM made me realize what's missing for me is the world. I don't care too much about plot; RPGs are about the character I create defining the gameplay and the story within a well-defined, internally consistent world. It doesn't have to be big - a town or space station might be more than enough, but I don't want the world to be defined by or revolve around my character; rather, I want to feel it would exist even if I wasn't playing. At the same time, the actions I take need to matter and affect the world. Once there's an internally consistent and interesting world that I have freedom to approach in a variety of ways based on the character I create, any good plot, stories and characters are icing on the cake. Role-playing isn't about storytelling, it's about story creation.</blockquote>
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Discuss!
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bobbob

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Joined
Dec 18, 2002
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"Playing the ASCII rogue-like ADOM made me realize what's missing for me is the world. I don't care too much about plot; RPGs are about the character I create defining the gameplay and the story within a well-defined, internally consistent world. It doesn't have to be big - a town or space station might be more than enough, but I don't want the world to be defined by or revolve around my character; rather, I want to feel it would exist even if I wasn't playing. At the same time, the actions I take need to matter and affect the world. Once there's an internally consistent and interesting world that I have freedom to approach in a variety of ways based on the character I create, any good plot, stories and characters are icing on the cake. Role-playing isn't about storytelling, it's about story creation."

That "some guy from Tilted Mill" hit the nail right on the head. These days any crap with a story and characters that level up is called a Rpg. But looking at the sales of games like KOTOR vs. the sales of fallout or arcanum maybe there is no real market for true rpgs.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
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I dunno. I think its more about promotion of a game than anything else. I've never seen a Fallout Ad, and only one Arcanum ad and one TOEE ad, but I've seen a shitload of ads for Blizzards games like Diablo and Diablo 2, and I'd even seen a few NWN ads when the games had just come out. (These are magazine ads I'm talking about.) I think it's more about promotion than anything else, and many of the hardcore "true" RPGs dont get alot.
 

Jed

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Tech Bro Hell
Dungeon Siege II designer said:
A more disconcerting ramification might be the simplification of the complex tactical combat of PC RPGs. Knights of the Old Republic was a step down from the Baldur's Gate series in terms of tactical complexity, and Morrowind offered fewer combat options than other RPGs. The entertainment value of an RPG for many players is based upon the interesting choices that combat presents them, and due to the lack of a mouse, it's difficult to manage a squad of characters simultaneously on a console the way you would on a PC.
2004--Year of the Monkey, or Year of IRONY?!
 

DIPthong

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NC, USA
XJEDX said:
Dungeon Siege II designer said:
A more disconcerting ramification might be the simplification of the complex tactical combat of PC RPGs. Knights of the Old Republic was a step down from the Baldur's Gate series in terms of tactical complexity, and Morrowind offered fewer combat options than other RPGs. The entertainment value of an RPG for many players is based upon the interesting choices that combat presents them, and due to the lack of a mouse, it's difficult to manage a squad of characters simultaneously on a console the way you would on a PC.
2004--Year of the Monkey, or Year of IRONY?!

Yeah, I know, wtf.
"Hello Mr. Pot. There's a Mr. Kettle on line two." :roll:
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Staff Member
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Behind you.
XJEDX said:
Dungeon Siege II designer said:
A more disconcerting ramification might be the simplification of the complex tactical combat of PC RPGs. Knights of the Old Republic was a step down from the Baldur's Gate series in terms of tactical complexity, and Morrowind offered fewer combat options than other RPGs. The entertainment value of an RPG for many players is based upon the interesting choices that combat presents them, and due to the lack of a mouse, it's difficult to manage a squad of characters simultaneously on a console the way you would on a PC.
2004--Year of the Monkey, or Year of IRONY?!

Yeah, I have to say, I don't think anyone that was doing Dungeon Siege should be throwing rocks in a glass house about anyone else's game's lack of tactical complexity. That'd be like David Gaider bitching about stupid, pointless romances in someone else's CRPG.
 

EEVIAC

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Does anyone have an opinion on Impression's city-building games? Pharoah is really cheap at the moment but Emperor : ROTMK has a setting I much prefer.

By the way, look at Tilted Mill's Games Page :

Prelude to Darknessâ„¢

Mat Williams - lead designer and lead programmer
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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EEVIAC said:
Does anyone have an opinion on Impression's city-building games? Pharoah is really cheap at the moment but Emperor : ROTMK has a setting I much prefer.

Did someone mention Impressions?!

ZEUS WILL RULE YOU ALL!!!! :twisted:

Ahem. Sorry. I love that game. Can't you tell? ;)

I too like the setting for Emperor, but I can never find a copy of the damn game. They had one awhile back at one of my local haunts, but by the time I had the money to purchase it, it was gone. :cry: Luckily, I found Great Empires Collection Vol. 2 and that was enough to keep me happy. :)

Edit: BTW, if you are interested in checking the greatest series of city building games out there, Great Empires Collection V. II is only $20 and comes with Caesar III, Pharoah and expansion Cleopatra, as well as Zeus and expansion Poseidon. Excellent games one and all. Still.... ZEUS WILL RULE YOU ALL!!!! :twisted:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Otaku_Hanzo said:
EEVIAC said:
Does anyone have an opinion on Impression's city-building games? Pharoah is really cheap at the moment but Emperor : ROTMK has a setting I much prefer.

Did someone mention Impressions?!

ZEUS WILL RULE YOU ALL!!!! :twisted:
lol :lol:
 

Azael

Magister
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Multikult Central South
Wasteland 2
Volourn said:
Jeff Vogel is a BIO fanboy! Linch him!! :shock:

Bio, not BIO, unless it's an acronym for [insert clever acronym here] :wink:

Even worse, he's a fan of EverQuest, but since he makes good games such flaws can be overlooked. What's your excuse?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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I'm Volourn which is worst than being braindead. Enough of a good exuse for you? :?



:lol:
 

Astromarine

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Jan 21, 2003
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Location
Switzerland
impressions games rock, but Emperor, while still good, is a bit of a step back. It wasn't made by impressions, BTW, some other studio within Sierra.

The emperor deal is, AFAIK: Pharaoh improved on Caesar, Zeus improved (a lot) on Pharaoh. The same cannot be said for this one.

Still, the setting counts for a lot, and if you have never played any of that city-building series, I'd get Emperor.
 

EEVIAC

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Thanks for the comments. I've looked around for that Great Empires pack locally but no dice.

By the way, the only reason I brought it up is because the people from Tilted Mill (I'm talking lead programmers and designers) have worked on all those games, including Zeus. Might be another company to keep an eye on.
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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The state of insanity.
Not since the original X-Com or Uncharted Waters 2 has a game addicted me so much as Zeus did. Not even Fallout or Arcanum hooked me like those three games did. I remember plenty of times playing them and suddenly realizing I had an hour to be to work and I hadn't even slept yet. :P

Oh... honorable mention must go to Dungeon Keeper 2 and Star Control 2. They gave me some sleepless nights. Just not as many as the three games mentioned above. ;)
 

Otaku_Hanzo

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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The state of insanity.
Astromarine said:
Uncharted Waters 2 is TEH ROKK!. speaking of x-com, did you try LSN yet?

Not right now. Got it downloaded and set aside though. Currently working on a couple of games I've had awhile but couldn't play due to ram issues. But, now that I've upgraded my ram, I have access to them. What's the general consensus on the game though? I'm kinda turned off by the fact that it's multiplay only, but am willing to give it a try.
 

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