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Preview Jolt praises Bard's Tale's bold designs

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Tags: Bard's Tale (2005)

<a href=http://www.jolt.co.uk>Jolt</a> posted a <a href=http://www.jolt.co.uk/index.php?articleid=1298&PHPSESSID=6015ada3c12a8af3adc8a1b4d2a1cfdd>preview</a> of <a href=http://www.inxile-entertainment.com>Bard's Tale</a>, praising it for <i>challenging RPG conventions</i> and noting the need for <i>bold developers to give things a good shake</i>
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<blockquote>One thing that came through the original design spec was a certain streamlining of the RPG concept. For example, treasure can be converted to money automatically. Uh oh. Most PC gamers would think of this sort of streamlining as ‘dumbing down', and that's probably not far from the truth. We've seen design decisions like this in other games, with mixed results. Nevertheless, the Bard's Tale isn't trying to be a curtains drawn for 4 days solid epic. The focus is on storytelling and humour with action gameplay, so it's entirely possible that inventory management really would be nothing but excess baggage, if you'll pardon the pun.</blockquote>
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I know that this particular feature was criticized a lot, but I like it. Dealing with inventory was always a chore. Another thing that should be streamlined is dialogue. I mean, common, we always pick the best or the right option, so what's the point of pretending that we are choosing something, I think that that should be handled automatically as well, and I count on InXile, one of the leaders of streamlining technologies, to streamline the RPG concept even further.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.gengamers.com">GenGamers</A>
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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If it's excess baggage, why not just come up with a different concept? Instead of automatic converting it to money, why not have the Bard use his initial gear troughout the game, but increasing the gear's power as he advances?
 

Voss

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Jun 25, 2003
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Or have interesting gear so things aren't obviously 'the bestest loot'. You know, allow for some thought to go into the choices. Both on the dev end and the player end.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Role-Player said:
If it's excess baggage, why not just come up with a different concept? Instead of automatic converting it to money, why not have the Bard use his initial gear troughout the game, but increasing the gear's power as he advances?

Or... Since he's a BARD and all, and attracts and audiance.. Why not have a bard song devoted to attracting wandering merchants?

I tend to get annoyed with CRPGs that have random drops anyway. It's fine for something like Diablo which revolves around things like that, but in a full blown CRPG, I expect dead folk to have what they were using on their corpses. This system seems to be more like a system where everything that dies just drops money.
 

WaltC

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I was really fairly disappointed with the Brian Fargo interviews I've read thus far in which he describes this supposed "remake" of The Bard's Tale. My disappointment stems from the fact that the game simply doesn't sound like much of a remake of the game at all, but rather merely an entirely new game which deceitfully seeks to establish itself by trading on the reputation of the original. When I first heard about the game I was immediately very interested because I had no idea Fargo would dare to trade on the original and call it a "remake" when it's clear it is anything but that. I'm keeping an open mind about the game nonetheless, but I am still disappointed and not expecting much. If I am pleasantly surprised, well, that'll be great.

But, it seems in reading Fargo's comments that he's managed to strip the game of everything that I enjoyed about the original--he said in one interview, for instance, that The Bard's Tale (original) "had no plot," as if the game's premise of exploring new territory, bashing in doors that might lead to sewers or dungeons, managing a group of characters and watching them grow more powerful and skilled with experience, accumulating all kinds of interesting inventories and magical items having unusual if not unique properties, fighting your way through hordes of monsters, and the powerful fascination of never knowing what you'd encounter around the next bend that would lead you into new directions and encounters--as if all of that was what was *wrong* with the original Bard's Tale, instead of what was right about it.

It is regrettably true that the computer industry in general sees people and companies who come and go after making great products, shining brightly for a short while, and then imploding to form black holes, rarely to be seen or heard from again. Often what happens is that for some inexplicable reason those people/companies become very successful during their shining period, but since they don't really understand the basis of their success, they find themselves unable to repeat and maintain that success, and they just fade away. But in contrast if you look at companies like ID Software, Epic, Bioware, etc., you'll see that the people there have a very strong handle on why they've become successful and why it is that people like their products, and it's in the knowing of the "why" of their success that these companies can maintain their respective audiences and reputations over long spans of time.

So, I have to wonder at Fargo's true motivation in changing The Bard's Tale so fundamentally. I mean, I have no doubt that he appreciates how popular and successful the original game was, since he's decided to call this game "The Bard's Tale" and literally portray it as a "remake." He'd never, ever do this if he didn't appreciate how successful the original game was, and he didn't know what fond memories of lot of people had for the experience of the game. So....how does it follow then that he thinks stripping the remake of the Bard's Tale of all of the elements that made it a classic might be the correct route to follow? Does he think that the only element in the original that people loved was the name of the game, "The Bard's Tale"? Beats me, it really does, but I have a couple of theories....

The first one that occurs to me is the dreaded "We want to sell to consoles" syndrome. Typically, consoles lack a lot of the hardware resources of PCs, and, I think, are somewhat lacking with respect to gaming control (keyboard + mouse is hard to beat, as far as I am concerned.) Lack of hardware resources contrasted with PC's would also include, but not be limited to, high capacities of permanent storage space, 3d graphics capabilites for much higher resolution displays and SOA 3d hardware feature support, dedicated and large pools of videoram and system ram, much more powerful cpus, etc. Basically, games targeted to provide both PC and console support immediately upon release may well tax the capabilities of consoles and yet be far below the capabilities of the decently equipped, average PC's that gamers typically own. In short, you simply do not have the developmental overhead room with a console that you have with a PC, and cannot do as much with it. I much prefer as a rule, it seems, games which are developed for the PC exclusively and initially relased first as PC-only, which are only then later "ported" [dumbed down] for the console market, which is necessary because of the comparative lack of physical resources consoles provide. (DeusEx2 is a recent example of how this works, I think.)

Second theory here is the "3d game engine" syndrome. Is it really true that Fargo thinks that the group play in the original Bard's Tale is inferior to that of a single character, that he made a mistake in the original game letting players manage a team of characters, and that nobody cared anything about any of the other characters in the game apart from the bard? I really cannot imagine Fargo making such a fundamental mistake, but I have to admit it is barely possible.

What I think is far more likely, however, is that the game is developed as bard-only, with the lame and uninteresting "summon other characters temporarily for fighting" aspect thrown in as a bone to appease players of the original game, simply because the game engine Fargo is using isn't suited to support the kind multi-character RPG management which was so basic to the original game. People like managing groups of characters in RPGs--they just do--and typically this makes such a game far more absorbing and interesting. Linking here with my first theory above, a single-character engine also requires fewer hardware resources to support. (Look at NeverWinterNights, for instance, and consider how many people saw the one-character & sidekick implementation to get boring fairly quickly. Also consider how the latest expansions for NWN have sought to improve upon that apsect in response to the criticism it generated.)

I think the 3d-game engine selected and its inherent limitations, coupled with a desire to tailor the game to the console space, have resulted in many, if not most, of Fargo's basic design strategies relative to what he calls the "remake" of The Bard's Tale. I think it's because of these two decisions that Fargo says things like, paraphrased, "We really found inventory management in the original game to be too complex and time consuming."

That's not really true, I think, as inventory management by the player and routinely finding new and interesting items was one of the original's best features, and Fargo is being less than forthcoming about why the "remake" is really looking more like a parody of the original game than it is an actual attempt to remake the game so that it is presented with current technology while remaining faithful to the epic presentation of the original game. It simply isn't reasonable to consider any other rationale when comes to things like the remake offering "just a few, limited weapons sets" and the really bizarre aspect of automatically turning inventory into gold. In fact, the automatic transmutation of inventory into gold strikes me as flatly illogical. In RPGs it's never "the gold" people really want--it's what the gold can *buy* that is compelling and interesting (just as in real life with real money.) It certainly looks like the remake will provide players with plenty of gold but little or nothing to buy with it. Add in here the game engine's inability to do first-person perspective display as the original game offered and as is not uncommon with many other 3d engines, and you really wind up with a picture of the remake not being a remake at all, but something quite different, possibly being only a parody of the original game, and a game hobbled in structure and design in comparison to the original by an overarching desire to target consoles, and with a 3d-engine suited best for console fare. That's my view, such as it is.

I think what Fargo's doing here is a terrific and poignant example of how many current game developers are going wrong these days. I think it's best to start with a game design and concept and work from there when considering platforms and game engines, as opposed to tailoring your game and concept to the hardware limitations of consoles and the limitations of 3d engines you pick because of their applicability to console support.

It really sounds to me as if Fargo targeted consoles and picked a 3d-engine for that purpose before he ever began fleshing out the basic concept of what he terms is the "remake" of The Bard's Tale. I think that's why we see this concentrated emphasis on "humor" concerning this game--which of course is a great thing for any game, I think. It's just that in this case the "humor" is being emphasized to mask the fact that the remake is simply missing many of the fundamental aspects which made the original a classic game in every respect, aspects of gameplay which made the original as popular as it was and without which none of us would today remember the original Bard's Tale at all. That's the pity of it.

I could be much more sympathetic to Fargo if he had elected to title this game "A Bard's Tale" instead of "The Bard's Tale" and professing it is a "remake" of the original game. Surely he must understand that when he's using the same title and says it's a remake that people will naturally have certain basic expectations for it that are congruent with the original game. That's just simple, ordinary common sense. The fact is he'd have been better off with a new title and to specify the game as a new one which is *not* a remake of the original. But, it's obvious that he's hoping to trade on the reputation of the original game while at the same time only paying lip service to it in the new game. I do not think this will be a successful strategy, and it may well completely backfire, in fact. I mean, by Fargo's own quoted comments in a number of interviews I've read, the one solid conclusion I can make is that this game is not actually a remake of the original at all. I was not happy to reach that conclusion and I actually looked for things in those interviews to undermine it, but I unfortunately couldn't find any thing to dissuade my initial impression that The Bard's Tale is not going to be a remake of The Bard's Tale at all.

As I said at the start of this post, I'm very disappointed. I will, however, endeavor to keep an open mind until the game ships.
 

Seven

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Can some one summerize his main points reading too much makes my head hurt. I did read half way through though, that's gotta count for something.
 

Ausir

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Personally, I never liked the original Bard's Tale too much. Wasteland was much better.
 

Vault Dweller

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Fargo sucks, the new Bard's Tale sucks, the gaming industry sucks, console games suck, NWN sucks, automatic inventory management sucks. He has a point there :)

Btw, welcome, WaltC, and don't mind Seven9, we like long posts :)
 

Ausir

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But I don't think he has a point in that single character cRPGs are inferior to party-based ones.
 

Vault Dweller

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And that's why I didn't include it in the "he has a point" list. Single character RPGs totally own party based ones :)
 

Saint_Proverbius

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WaltC said:
But in contrast if you look at companies like ID Software, Epic, Bioware, etc.,

Epic seems to be falling in to the rut ID was in a few years ago, they are basically making engines at this point and releasing them with some multiplayer aspects rather than making a game themselves. Basically, Epic seems to be doing the Upgrade your Unreal Tournament Engine This Year! method of development rather than making games at this point. ID software is at least making Doom 3, and I'm sure it'll sell. It's been a good long time since they've made a really, really good single player game, though.

The first one that occurs to me is the dreaded "We want to sell to consoles" syndrome.

Fargo seems to think Interplay would have done lots and lots of money if they'd gotten in to consoles earlier, but when you look at things like Galleon and Run Like Hell, I just don't think they would have.

Second theory here is the "3d game engine" syndrome. Is it really true that Fargo thinks that the group play in the original Bard's Tale is inferior to that of a single character, that he made a mistake in the original game letting players manage a team of characters, and that nobody cared anything about any of the other characters in the game apart from the bard? I really cannot imagine Fargo making such a fundamental mistake, but I have to admit it is barely possible.

I'm not sure I understand this. What does 3D have to do with whether or not it's single player or party based? The engine he's using could have party play added to it.

People like managing groups of characters in RPGs--they just do--and typically this makes such a game far more absorbing and interesting.

I prefer a single character CRPG, actually. My two favorite CRPGs in recent years were Fallout and Geneforge. That's not to say I don't like party based, but if you're not going to make it turn based - screw the party.

Linking here with my first theory above, a single-character engine also requires fewer hardware resources to support. (Look at NeverWinterNights, for instance, and consider how many people saw the one-character & sidekick implementation to get boring fairly quickly. Also consider how the latest expansions for NWN have sought to improve upon that apsect in response to the criticism it generated.)

I think the problem with this is that the NWN henchmen thing was so poorly done.

I think the 3d-game engine selected and its inherent limitations, coupled with a desire to tailor the game to the console space, have resulted in many, if not most, of Fargo's basic design strategies relative to what he calls the "remake" of The Bard's Tale. I think it's because of these two decisions that Fargo says things like, paraphrased, "We really found inventory management in the original game to be too complex and time consuming."

I think this stems from Dungeon Siege design mentality. Personally, I found Dungeon Siege to be a monumental bore because there's nothing to do. He wants to say people find inventory management boring, fine. More power to him. However, consider Diablo and Diablo 2 where one of the key aspects of those games are managing the inventories. I personally enjoy a good loot run in Diablo 2, hauling lots of stuff back to camp and seeing how much money I'll make from it.
 

Anonymous

Guest
I'm assuming this new Bards Tale is probably very linear, so I see the auto-weapon and auto-inventory deal silly. It takes whatever gameplay/phat lewting there was and tosses it away for a boring game experience you'll finish the day you get it.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Saint_Proverbius said:
I prefer a single character CRPG, actually. My two favorite CRPGs in recent years were Fallout and Geneforge. That's not to say I don't like party based, but if you're not going to make it turn based - screw the party.

I think the problem with this is that the NWN henchmen thing was so poorly done.

I highly agree with this. If you're not going to include a full party, then screw a semblance of a party, because more often than not, the end result isn't satisfying, as it won't include all the aspects necessary to make it work. I disliked the henchmen system of NWN, mainly because it was a step back from BG2's über control scheme. There wasn't even much of a reason to pause, because i didn't had to multitask between characters. True, adding the possibility of having 2 henchmen, and accessing their inventories are good features to add, though they're not enough, perhaps.
 

WaltC

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Vault Dweller said:
Fargo sucks, the new Bard's Tale sucks, the gaming industry sucks, console games suck, NWN sucks, automatic inventory management sucks. He has a point there :)

Btw, welcome, WaltC, and don't mind Seven9, we like long posts :)

Heh...;) Thanks...;) I seem perpetually cursed by long windedness, especially when I start out to write "only a couple of paragraphs," as was the case here.

About the multiple-character parties versus the single-character games--I really don't, in principle, have a preference. It all depends of course on whether the game itself is any good. My beef with this so-called remake is that Fargo's removed the multiple-character party aspect and as such that's just one more strike against it, imo. I really do think the "summoning" aspect for the remake is a contrivance to make the game at least superficially more interesting from an RPG point of view.

I first played through The Bard's Tale in 1986/87 on a Tandy 1000. Then again in '87/'88 (can't be sure of the years, exactly, in either case) on an Amiga 500. I enjoyed the Tandy version quite a bit at the time, and was both fascinated and repelled at the necessity of having to draw all maps by hand, but on the whole I liked the game a lot, and cheerfully drew every single level map by hand. The Amiga version, which featured actual musical "bard songs" versus the musical speaker beep-tones of the Tandy, and of course the Amiga's better graphics, greatly enhanced the experience, I thought (I stayed with the Amiga until 1995, owning at least one of every Amiga made except the A1000, and still own a fully functioning A4000 which I can't bring myself to part with. Then in '95 it was back to x86 where I've been since, as poor Commodore was mismanged into oblivion.) Anyway, for its time I thought The Bard's Tale was brilliant and innovative--it was the type of game you could expect to see released all too infrequently. Sure, by current standards it seems woefully lacking--but back then--it was impressive and enjoyable, I thought. The fact that I remember it today so clearly, when I'd be hard pressed to recall the other games I owned and played at the time, indicates the sort of impression it made on me.

It just seems to me that Fargo's forgotten (if he ever really knew) what made the game so successful originally. That's why I say I'm disappointed with his description of his "remake" as it sounds much more like a parody of the original than it does a remake. Considering the kind of ground-breaking game the original was in the 80's (at least, in my opinion) it's just a shame that evidently Fargo's "ground-breaking" days are over. Well, maybe not--maybe I'm just reading too much into his comments--I'd like to think so. We'll see....
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Well, I agree with you, the new and "improved" BT is a joke. If Fargo wanted to express his creativity differently, he should have called the game differently. It's as stupid as FOBOS, these games aim at people who couldn't care less about the original games, while alienating the fans of the original games. It's really, really stupid. Just as stupid as thinking that you can't go wrong with consoles.
 

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