Company News D&D has a 'future'

[Saint_Proverbius]

Tags: Atari

Accoarding to <A href="http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=76d31394f9f93f5e9870dd4a5061009e&threadid=346933&perpage=30&pagenumber=2">a reply in this thread</a>, <A href="http://www.atari.com">Atari</a> will be continuing to make D&D games in the future, even though many of them are console thingies. But, here's what <b>Grok</b> says:
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<blockquote>Thank you for taking my rather obvious bait!
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I expect to have an official announcement about the first title out in the next week or two. However, this is a console game and very unlike Temple, NWN, BG, etc. That said, it is absolutely fantastic -- so if you own a PS2 or Xbox you'll want ot keep an eye out for this one.
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We'll also be announcing a new D&D title in May. Solid developer but not a RPG. More details to come then.
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D&D Online -- this one has been announced and is being handled by the fine folks at Turbine. We'll be showing this game off for the first time in August of this year in Mexico!
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<u>There are however, two tentative annoucements we're planning for E3 that should be very big and just what you folks are looking for. I'm a big RPG geek myself and I'm excited...so that tells you something.</u>
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We've also got some new NWN stuff in the works that should be pretty cool.
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So, lots of D&D goodness in the future.</blockquote>
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Yippee.
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Thanks, <b>Demon King</b> who got the story from <A href="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPGDot</a>.
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[Vault Dweller]

OMG!!! :shock: It's BG3!!!!!

So, anyway, any bets or guesses regarding these games? One of them gotta be Againts the Giants.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Dude, if one of them is Return or Against The Giants, I'll turn my chair into a spermbank all by myself. I doubt it though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why? Who else can do a DnD RPG? There is BG3 of course, a new NWN game, but they mentioned it separately, and Troika's uber cool turn-based engine that could handle a lot of DnD games especially now that the rules bugs have been dealt with. Gotta be AtG.

 

[Spazmo]

AtG might not be as good as you're all thinking. Remember how people disliked the ToEE story and the sparce towns? Well, from what I've heard (from people at the Atari boards and Volourn, who've played these modules), AtG isn't much more detailed. It'd still be a great combat game, but it probably wouldn't be much for story and such. Although, they might have learned their lesson from ToEE and might devote more time to beefing up the towns this time around. I really couldn't stand another Hommlet to slog through at the start of all ToEE games.

What's even more interesting will be to see if Troika is even making it at all. Adaptations of old Greyhawk modules with an existing engine (even if it needs some work for stability) would be a great starting point for a new development house and a cheap alternative for Atari. I'm sure there's proprietary engine woes and such, but I'm still eagerly anticipating these annoucements.

And yes, yes I am making an exception in my "no fantasy games" rule because it's Troika. SO THERE!

 

[Sheriff05]

AtG might not be as good as you're all thinking. Remember how people disliked the ToEE story and the sparce towns? Well, from what I've heard (from people at the Atari boards and Volourn, who've played these modules), AtG isn't much more detailed. It'd still be a great combat game, but it probably wouldn't be much for story and such. Although, they might have learned their lesson from ToEE and might devote more time to beefing up the towns this time around. I really couldn't stand another Hommlet to slog through at the start of all ToEE games.

What's even more interesting will be to see if Troika is even making it at all. Adaptations of old Greyhawk modules with an existing engine (even if it needs some work for stability) would be a great starting point for a new development house and a cheap alternative for Atari. I'm sure there's proprietary engine woes and such, but I'm still eagerly anticipating these annoucements.

And yes, yes I am making an exception in my "no fantasy games" rule because it's Troika. SO THERE!

In a nutshell the entire seven module story for AtG is incredibily light, so light I can sum it up in a few sentences. "Some local hill giants are raidng nearby communities the PC's investigation leads to the discovery of a more elaborate plot with the Frost then the Fire Giants then 3 modules the Drow, then finally the Demoness Lloth who's of course behind all this. This does tie in with ToEE as it's Lloth who's sent Lareth as his minion to the Temple, and now that's Zuggtmoy is dead/banished etc...she can grab a bigger piece of influence on the Flanaess. Don't worry about spoilers because that's the whole story laid out as one big dungeon crawl. The aren't really any towns outside of *where* you start and the rest of the story( exception,Hill giants) takes place in very remote mountain regions, underground and the abyss.
Given the general *opinion* about ToEE, making this game would be a bad idea
there are better stories within the original Greyhawk mods (Slavers), that would make for a much better game, given the anything but the niche following that ToEE has gatherered.

Having said that, I have to agree with Exitium in that should AtG actually a) be announced and then b) actually get made.
I'll immeditately start buying property on the moon.
The audience for a *real* D&D games is dead
IF Bioware has taught us anything, it is that the average game buyer doesn't want a *real* D&D game. (when I say real, I mean simply *by the rules*)
They (The average game buyer) want an updated real time version with simplified rules and lots of romances and unlimted levels.
I wouldn't plan on ever seeing a decent D&D game again. The last nails are in the coffin ,no large publisher is going to back a game that doesn't appeal to the *average game buyer*. and no indie developer can afford the license.

 

[Ausir]

It would be better if Troika made an entirely new D&D game based on ToEE engine and their original story.

 

[Voss]

Why? Who else can do a DnD RPG? There is BG3 of course, a new NWN game, but they mentioned it separately, and Troika's uber cool turn-based engine that could handle a lot of DnD games especially now that the rules bugs have been dealt with. Gotta be AtG.

Anyone Atari feels like renting the license out to.

I hope it isn't AtG, actually, for several reasons.
1) Its dull. Go kill hill giants. Hurray! You have now graduated to killing frost giants! Now try fire giants! Now hurry, run through a randomized Underdark, through a drow city, a mini-plane and go kill Lloth in her giant spaceship. Whee!
2) 1st edition giants vs. 3.5 edition giants. With assorted mastadons, pet dragons and other Large/Huge creatures. Rebalancing ahoy!
3) Did I mention its dull? And the Laereth/Lolth tie in is fairly weak. The player & characters may not even know or care about it.
4) Troika could do more interesting things with an original follow up. (Like the Iuz plot threads, for example, which are much more prevalent) Or they could do one of more interesting classic modules. Slavers is a good choice, and there are others.

 

[Ultron]

I'm not touching AtG until they fix that POS engine.....TOEE has become unplayable to me in the fire node.

 

[DemonKing]

It would be better if Troika made an entirely new D&D game based on ToEE engine and their original story.

Exactly...

As others have pointed out, AtG is one huge dungeon crawl. The level of detail in the original module map key was basically along the following:

ROOM 1

4 Hill Giants (Hp 81, 79, 78, 69). Each giant carries 100-600gp in a large sack.

ROOM 2

3 Hill Giants (Hp 83, 72, 70) and a pet Cave Bear (Hp 53). Each giant has a sack with 100-400gp. The cave bear wears a gem-studded collar worth 500gp.

ROOM 3

6 Ogres (Hp 32, 29, 27, 27, 24, 21) and their 4 orc slaves (Hp 7,6,3,3). The ogres have 10-60gp each in their filthy hides.

(Repeat ad naseum for another 3 modules)

Yes Mr Cain - what a brilliant designer this Mr Gygax was - he managed to sell a whole series of modules which might as well have been written by 10 year olds for all the story and detail that went into them.

Please, please, please make the next Troika D&D game an original design. I know it takes a bit more work, but the fans will love you for it. :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyone Atari feels like renting the license out to

True, but Atari already got 2 DnD suppliers. Nobody would beat Bio where mass-market RT DnD games are concerned, and nobody would beat Troika in a turn-based true adaptation game. There is only room for BG3 on account of all the hype, but that's about it.

I hope it isn't AtG, actually, for several reasons.

Well, I don't really care which module (if any) it is. A good dungeon crawler is all I'm asking for.

 

[Azael]

I'd say Atari should give Nival a call and cut a deal to use the Silent Storm engine for a fullblown D&D combat game.

 

[Sheriff05]

Yes Mr Cain - what a brilliant designer this Mr Gygax was - he managed to sell a whole series of modules which might as well have been written by 10 year olds for all the story and detail that went into them.

Back in the day before computer games were made and you were just a gleam in the mailmans eye (Those modules were published between 78-81)
D&D was played with this guy called a "Dungeon Master", it was his job to flesh out the story of these modules which were nothing more than a series of encounters tied together with a *loose* skeleton of a story. Nobody complained about it then because the focus of the story was given directly to the players, Gygax and company provided you with the rules and the tools.
(remember before D&D became the home of frustrated actors everywhere it actually used to be played as a table top wargame as well.)

In 2004, I agree a 10 year old could slap together a bunch of encounters that could be similar to any of those original mods. But thats 25 years after the fact, Gygax was doing it from nothing but his imagination for an idea of a game that in todays terms is only an approximation of the original vision.

 

[Voss]

True, but Atari already got 2 DnD suppliers. Nobody would beat Bio where mass-market RT DnD games are concerned, and nobody would beat Troika in a turn-based true adaptation game. There is only room for BG3 on account of all the hype, but that's about it.

From that snippet, they seem more than willing to farm it out, and flood the market with half-assed games to soak up loose change.
That FR console sounds bad, particularly with the writing (bets that the heroes will be angsty and brooding, and whine to themselves continually when not slaughtering monsters with their uber skills?).
A non-rpg D&D game (because those do so well...)
Plus two more to be announced
and NWN stuff...

I don't think they're sticking to just Troika and Bioware... ( and they may not even be involved in these projects... particularly if Bioware tosses the NWN stuff at Obsidian, or just puts out more community packs.)

 

[Volourn]

Dunno you being sarcastic Voss; but non rpg D&D games do sell well. Look at the succes of BGDA (both of 'em), the Bg series, IWD1, NWN, TOEE, and the Gold Box games..

As for the NWN thing; it's probably just that lame retarded stuff BIo has been spewing on their baords. Garbage, utter garbage. I won't even discuss D&D Online.

 

[taks]

you can't blame gygax for the lite stories in the AtG series... he provided a framework for a good DM to run a DUNGEON CRAWL in the first place. it wasn't supposed to have a heavy story - though i've been told the story and background was much better in the pnp version of toee than in the troika version. given that, troika certainly proved to me it is incapbable of providing the services of a "good DM." if they are doing AtG, it will be bargain bin before i pick it up.

hopefully, atari owns the rights to the engine and can license it out to some other developer. ANY other developer. of course, a few improvements on the engine wouldn't hurt, particularly pathfinding (i don't like the "pathfind first, move second option, too slow) and random # generation (supposedly fixed in the 2nd patch... whenever that will be released).

personally, i think atari and interplay came to some agreement and BG3 will be released through a joint partnership wherein atari publishes the game and interplay develops it through a sub-contractor, hopefully using the jefferson engine (which looked nicer than the toee engine). we shall see

taks

 

[Transcendent One]

I wouldn't mind another ToEE style game, but they should either try and make the town areas decent or remove them altogether. Making them utter trash, even if optional as well, to me is somewhat frustrating, cause I feel the need to do those optional things to get the most out of the game.

I wouldn't mind BG3 either even if it's done by Bioware and Obsidian. While their rule implementations are trash, I think BG2 had some good combat and they seem to be going in the right direction with roleplaying with KotOR and stuff, and their production values cpntinue to stay remarkably high. So BG3 done by them could turn out to be quite a game (wow, never thought I'd say that).

If it's done by IPLY, that's a bit more difficult. I don't know just how many reliable RPG devs are left in there from the remains of Blakc Isle. And besides, Black Isle wasn't too good for a while before it got eaten.

As for console D&D, no thank you, next please :arrow:

 

[Vault Dweller]

More stuff from the Atari guy:

Some clarification:

The non-RPG game is very much a D&D game...it's just not a RPG (role-playing game). If I tell you what it is, then I'll lessen the impact of the announcement when we make it. It will be PC only.

I don't know what it is, but I betcha it's something stupid.

As a franchise, D&D titles remain predominantly PC, but we are certainly trying to push more of them to console where it makes sense.

Of course, everything makes sense on consoles! When you have a lame idea, make a console game, you can always sell it directly to local video stores!

We've certainly considered hack-n-slash titles like Diablo, but it's tough to compete with the king -- I still play it occasionally to this day. Not to mention, we're not terribly interested in developing "me too" products.

No, of course not. Atari is a 100% original publisher. Why do "me too" products when you can safely do "more of the same" stuff?

We're working on new things for the already existing NWN and, of course...oh I better shut up. ;-)

Mystary!

So, you all do realize that just because we make a RTS or a FPS or whatever...doesn't mean we're not going to make more RPGs right?

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that line. You do realize that just because we are making FOT, doesn't mean that we wouldn't do a Fallout RPG. You do realize that just because we are making FOBOS, doesn't mean that we wouldn't do a Fallout RPG, etc.

D&D's strength remains the RPG experience and we recognize that - however we want to expand it into other realms as well. The more people that we help get into D&D the more people we'll have looking at our next major D&D RPG. The more sales of that RPG = more opportunities for the development of more RPGs. Then everyone else will want to jump on the bandwagon and that's even more RPGs! It boggles my mind!

DnD Underhill Tycoon! You play the game as Balaster, a brother of famous Halaster, and your goal is to build a scary-ass dungeon and turn it into a successful franchise of amusemant underground parks and rides.

 

[taks]

hotu from bioware seems pretty slick so far (my opinion at least). definitely better than the OC...

you are correct, greyhawk, that the bg system rules were pretty nerfed but i think that was a consequence of the type of game it was more than anything. RT w/ pause just doesn't lend itself well to a true implementation of D&D rules and compromises must be made. lots of the little things they did were also compromises for a flawed rules system to begin with (2E has... issues). same goes for NWN though i can't say i'm dwelling on rules so much that i notice any real problems.

it's all about trades... if you want a long, heavy on content game, TB probably won't be the choice unless it's combat lite. for a short on story low content game, TB rules and true implementations are prossible.

somehow, i doubt obsidian, bioware or inxile will be involved in a BG3, however. just too much bad blood there with interply, IMO, even if it is "just business."

taks

 

[DIPthong]

Some clarification:

The non-RPG game is very much a D&D game...it's just not a RPG (role-playing game). If I tell you what it is, then I'll lessen the impact of the announcement when we make it. It will be PC only.

Hmmm...PC only non-RPG of DnD? RTS? Methinks so... (ugh). I guess he means impact in a negative way. Hey, or MAYBE they'll try and make a DnD Adventure game like Warcraft Adventures tried and failed at?

 

[DIPthong]

it's all about trades... if you want a long, heavy on content game, TB probably won't be the choice unless it's combat lite. for a short on story low content game, TB rules and true implementations are prossible.
taks

I call bullshit on that one, you've just been hypnotized by BioSpeak. Don't believe the lies. ;-)

 

[taks]

VD, you gotta remember a couple things...

1.) Atari, above all else, is a much more successful publisher than interplay so the "dollar for every time" comment doesn't necessarily apply the same way. when applied to interplay, they just ran out of money so talking out all orifices was the only option. atari still has the bucks to produce anything they want. quality, on the other hand... i won't even go there. mixed bag for sure.

2.) just because D&D is historically an RPG game doesn't mean there isn't a market for other genres. in this case, it is "just business" and these guys are in the market to make money for their shareholders... whether we like it or not.

bottom line, the only way we can ever hope to get a good CRPG is if somebody develops one. the best bet is somebody with money, which atari has. maybe it takes 3 or 4 tries to get it right... i'll count toee as failure #1.

taks

 

[taks]

I call bullshit on that one, you've just been hypnotized by BioSpeak. Don't believe the lies. ;-)

i disagree. the problem with a LARGE TB game is time. if toee were RT w/pause, it would have taken only a few hours to finish. likewise, if BG2 were TB, it would have taken 500 hours to finish. TB is sloooooow. an undeniable fact. RT w/pause is fast. another undeniable fact. developers are in the business to make money so a 500 hour game is hardly a good bet just from a sales standpoint. the same goes for simple things like light bulbs... sure they can make 'em last 20 years, but then how do they make money as a business when nobody needs new bulbs?

taks

 

[Monte Carlo]

I agree that AtG is, fundamentally, boring from a CRPG perspective if Troika develop it as slavishly accurately as they did with the TOEE.

However, given some latitude, the long-term underground campaigning of the "Drow" series modules followed by the uber-munchkin planar jaunt that is Queen of the Demonweb Pits could make a really rather enjoyable CRPG propostion.

I don't think that there is any need to return to "old-skool" material, though. I really don't. FWIW, though, I think that the "A" Series (Slavelords) and the kooky S3 (Return to the Barrier Peaks) would cut the mustard better than AtG.

Having played TOEE I can also say that I don't like Troika's take on gameplay style. Some might call it hardcore....I'd rather describe it as inelegant. Superlative tactical combat engine? Yep. But it's not enough.

Cheers
MC

 

[Voss]

Dunno you being sarcastic Voss; but non rpg D&D games do sell well. Look at the succes of BGDA (both of 'em), the Bg series, IWD1, NWN, TOEE, and the Gold Box games..

As for the NWN thing; it's probably just that lame retarded stuff BIo has been spewing on their baords. Garbage, utter garbage. I won't even discuss D&D Online.

I wasn't thinking of those. Enough people here seem to mix action, adventure and RPG enough that everything you mention can get lumped into a category thats close enough for the codex.

I was thinking more of the attempts at strategy games, mini-games (the Hillsfar silver box thing) fighting games, and side-scrollers. These have pretty much sucked.