Interview Avellone & Sawyer at Trzynasty Schron

[Jason]

Tags: Fallout 3 (Van Buren); Obsidian Entertainment

Codex regular Jim Cojones <a href="http://trzynasty-schron.net/dzial,wywiad_obsidian_en.htm" target="blank">had a chat</a> with Obsidian's Chris Avellone and Josh Sawyer for Doobie Brothers fansite Trzynasty Schron. Topics included Avellone's email address and Sawyer's awful design decisions.
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<blockquote>Jim Cojones: SPECIAL system has been evolving through years - while the differences between the rules in first two games were minor, every next game game of the franchise changed some things - f.e. to include new playable races or to allow playing in real time mode. Working on Van Buren, You wanted to make some major changes too. Could You remind what were the most important ones and explain the reasons for including them?
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Josh Sawyer: There were some relatively low-controversy changes like putting all of the skills on a universal starting scale and general tweaks to the attribute system, but the bigger changes had to do with what skills remained and what ones went away. For example, all "gun" skills (Small Guns, Big Guns, Energy Weapons) were rolled into a single Firearms skill. Doctor and First Aid were combined, etc.
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My reasoning for combining skills was to balance usefulness across the board and (in the case of the Firearms skill) to reduce general skill list bloat. In retrospect, I also think that having a single Firearms skill would have alleviated the perceived content imbalance between the different weapon skills. I.e. it would be okay to have relatively few energy weapons and big guns if they all went into the general "firearms" pool with small guns making up the bulk of equipment used. Obviously it gives the Firearms-specializing player a lot of tools to work with, but you still can only use one weapon at a time.</blockquote>

 

[saenz]

...Kinda like when they cut all the weapon skills for Morrowind to Oblivion down to "edged" or "blunt." Now the player knows exactly the skill to powergame. Whoops.

So what other "genius" design tips have Bethsoft taught you? Will the PC be able to become a world famous champion prize-figther at level 5? Will the PC become a trusted member, if not leader, of every crime syndicate in the city?

My hope for this game just disappeared.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

Fallout 3 in New Reno

 

[Bluebottle]

The success of the decision to roll all the gun skills into one Firearm skill would really have depended on how combat heavy the game was. If you spent all your time in combat, well then having multiple skills would have been necessary to give some variety between different character types. If combat was only one of several possible skill paths, it would have been less of an issue.

Personally though, I'd have simply got rid of the energy weapons skill, and spread them between small and large guns, dependent on size. You'd need to make it so small guns were different enough to offer a unique play style to big guns, though. Make the smaller guns easier to conceal, faster to draw, remove targeting of body parts for large weapons (or at least reduce the targetable areas) etc..

 

[Gragt]

...Kinda like when they cut all the weapon skills for Morrowind to Oblivion down to "edged" or "blunt." Now the player knows exactly the skill to powergame. Whoops.

The biggest problem with Oblivion is that skills do not do much at all. Even if you do not pump one of the weapon skill very high, you can still be very effective since you only need to connect the weapon to inflict damage. With that in mind, I do not object to having all firearms skilled merged into one as long as there is a real difference between a low and a high level and what comes in between. It'll be even better if the other skills are very useful and it makes it hard to chose which one to level up, because with combat being only one of the possible solutions, the firearm skill may not be the skill to max in the first place.

 

[Azrael the cat]

The Firearms thing completely depends on how much combat is required for the game. If plaiying an 'energy weapons guy' is basically the same as playing a 'small guns' guy, and there's lots of other playstyles besides 'weapon'-guy, then combining them all the 'firearms' makes a lot of sense. I must admit, I always found the distinctions fairly arbitrary - someone who can aim a rifle well should be able to aim an energy rifle well, and more importantly they PLAY the same. What I would do is keep the distinction between small arms and heavy weapons, as the different skillsets make sense and, again more importantly, firing large, inventory-hogging, strength-requiring, area-of-effect weaponry DOES play very differently to firing single-target weapons.

The most telling thing in the entire interview though is Avellone's comment that there wasn't any lead whose job it was to ensure consistency between areas (presumably thematic). That single comment says mountains about the difference between FO2 and FO1, and I wonder if a lot of the silly shite would have ended up in the final product if there a lead whose job it was to seriously think about whether each part fitted the overall atmosphere. We often turn reflexively to blame creative problems for games' flaws, but that's an excellent example of how a purely structural mis-decision can affect the creative result in a game.

I note that Avellone's two lead projects, PS:T and KoTOR2, really really hammered thematic consistency, every area tied towards the over-arching theme, and that was one of the great strengths of PS:T. KoTOR2, unfortunately, was ruined by a very different kind of structural fuck-up. NWN2, which Avellone had little to do with apart from doing a lousy job on a boring NPC, also - if you read the comments of some of those involved - fell apart due to structural fuckups, and that explains a lot of the mindless filler in the game. I think it was Annie Carlson who said that prior to Sawyer coming on board very very late, they had a series of unconnected areas that were basically unplayable. My biggest concern with AP and FO:New Vegas is whether Obsidian simply doesn't have the structural know-how to manage a project larger than an expansion pack.

 

[denizsi]

I've always wished for separate multi-levelled perks under a general skill to handle specialization. In this case, perks such as "single shot", "assault", "reflexive aim" etc. to differentiate between using single shot weapons or any weapon in single shot mode and semi/full auto shooting, and whether a character would be a run-and-gun type or a camper. Still like individual skills, but simplified with an overarching synergy to prevent cluttering.

Jim Cojones: Of all the work You have done on Fallout games, which part are you especially proud of?

Chris Avellone: I will say that Fallout 3's theme is probably what I miss most. I think it was strong, and it rang true for the title. I don't think I've felt as strongly about a theme and tying it into game mechanics until Torment.

I wonder if he said "Fallout 3" (bolding in the quote not mine) instead of Van Buren on purpose, to make a point ie. to imply that Bethesda's FO3 was lacking in this regard. When talking about cancelled FO3/Van Buren, he calls it Van Buren in all other instances except this one.

 

[shihonage]

In other news, SPECIAL will be condensed into two attributes -

Fertility
Upper Body Strength

 

[Jim Cojones]

I wonder if he said "Fallout 3" (bolding in the quote not mine) instead of Van Buren on purpose, to make a point ie. to imply that Bethesda's FO3 was lacking in this regard. When talking about cancelled FO3/Van Buren, he calls it Van Buren in all other instances except this one.

He used not to use 'Van Buren' term but always refer to the game as 'Fallout 3' before Bethesda's game (example) so it's rather a matter of courtesy that he tries to avoid that.

Fertility

At least that would assure the game's themes are mature (and possibly dark and gritty).

I had to google Doobie Brothers to find out who the fuck they were. I hope the executive editor won't read that because I'd have problems if it was widely known that I have no idea about the basis of the site.

 

[fastpunk]

I wasn't around when Van Buren was being worked on, but I gotta say it seemed like a mighty fine game. The enemy adventuring party idea was something that caught my attention in particular. I'm not sure how it would have worked out in the final game, but the idea is pretty fucking novel. It's weird, these days I'm literally drooling when I read about Van Buren, shame it never happened.

Heh, I imagine the modifications to SPECIAL started some heated debates 'round these parts. I like Josh's ideas about armor, but I'm not sure about rolling all guns into one skill. I can see the reasoning behind it, but on the flipside such a change would make that particular skill a no-brainer. I thought the idea was to make all skills equally alluring and useful.

About New Vegas, I'm curious what they're going to do with it. Having FO3 as a foundation is kind of iffy, at least it is to me. It might be interesting to explore a more coherent (and better written) wasteland in first person, but FO3 has disastrous gunplay. I don't know how they're going to fix that. I just hope Obsdian will keep the filler combat to a minimum, because dungeon crawling was awful in FO3. Yeah, even worse than talking to the retarded characters. Eh, I guess we'll find out next year what they change and what they keep. Hopefully it will turn out a decent game.

Anyway, that was a nice interview. Cheers to the guys/gals that made it happen!

 

[Andhaira]

I wasn't around when Van Buren was being worked on, but I gotta say it seemed like a mighty fine game. The enemy adventuring party idea was something that caught my attention in particular. I'm not sure how it would have worked out in the final game, but the idea is pretty fucking novel. It's weird, these days I'm literally drooling when I read about Van Buren, shame it never happened.
quote]

Bah, the realms of arkania series had the enemy adventuring party idea down pat in 1994. Those were some memorable fights.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

...Kinda like when they cut all the weapon skills for Morrowind to Oblivion down to "edged" or "blunt." Now the player knows exactly the skill to powergame. Whoops.

So what other "genius" design tips have Bethsoft taught you? Will the PC be able to become a world famous champion prize-figther at level 5? Will the PC become a trusted member, if not leader, of every crime syndicate in the city?

My hope for this game just disappeared.

Nis nas nefore Nethesda neleased Nallout Neee.

 

[Shannow]

Josh sunk 90 hours into FO3? No wonder all his projects get cancelled....

So, let me get this straight: Josh started as lead on New Vegas, will stay on till the end and the game will not get canned?
What next? Flying pigs? A peace-promoting US? No whining about FO2's great humor and awesome theme-park style?

No need to repeat Bluebottle and Azrael on small arms, big/energy weapons.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Josh sunk 90 hours into FO3? No wonder all his projects get cancelled....

So, let me get this straight: Josh started as lead on New Vegas, will stay on till the end and the game will not get canned?
What next? Flying pigs? A peace-promoting US? No whining about FO2's great humor and awesome theme-park style?

No need to repeat Bluebottle and Azrael on small arms, big/energy weapons.

BG 3 and FO 3 were canceled because Interplay didn't know how to profit not because they were slow to develop. Bethesda isn't going bankrupt anytime soon.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I wasn't around when Van Buren was being worked on, but I gotta say it seemed like a mighty fine game. The enemy adventuring party idea was something that caught my attention in particular. I'm not sure how it would have worked out in the final game, but the idea is pretty fucking novel. It's weird, these days I'm literally drooling when I read about Van Buren, shame it never happened.

Heh, I imagine the modifications to SPECIAL started some heated debates 'round these parts. I like Josh's ideas about armor, but I'm not sure about rolling all guns into one skill. I can see the reasoning behind it, but on the flipside such a change would make that particular skill a no-brainer. I thought the idea was to make all skills equally alluring and useful.

About New Vegas, I'm curious what they're going to do with it. Having FO3 as a foundation is kind of iffy, at least it is to me. It might be interesting to explore a more coherent (and better written) wasteland in first person, but FO3 has disastrous gunplay. I don't know how they're going to fix that. I just hope Obsdian will keep the filler combat to a minimum, because dungeon crawling was awful in FO3. Yeah, even worse than talking to the retarded characters. Eh, I guess we'll find out next year what they change and what they keep. Hopefully it will turn out a decent game.

Anyway, that was a nice interview. Cheers to the guys/gals that made it happen!

Filler combat to a minimum? Changing the shooting mechanics? Not likely. It's a spin-off of Bethesda's FO3, not Van Buren mk 2, and they'd almost certainly be expected to retain almost the same shooting mechanics, or at best a refinement of them. Similarly with the filler combat - I'm hoping that Obsidian has learnt their lesson from NWN2, but that game didn't exactly flop, and a 1 year development schedule isn't a good recipe for a non-padded game. Certainly not enough time to change the engine's shooting mechanics, or stealth mechanics or pretty much anything else. I can see why they'd take the job though - good chance to expose themselves to a non-Bioware audience - but I really wouldn't epect a lot from it. My hopes are basically that they'll provide a well-written, thematically coherent, and powerfully-dialogued version of FO3. And if they do that, and only that, they've just fixed some of FO3's biggest flaws.

One positive thing it 'might' do is expose the Oblivion/FO3 crowd to competent writing and thematic structure. Not enough to make the game interesting to most of the folk here, but it could raise the very low bar that is set for that stuff nowdays.

 

[Shannow]

Josh sunk 90 hours into FO3? No wonder all his projects get cancelled....

So, let me get this straight: Josh started as lead on New Vegas, will stay on till the end and the game will not get canned?
What next? Flying pigs? A peace-promoting US? No whining about FO2's great humor and awesome theme-park style?

No need to repeat Bluebottle and Azrael on small arms, big/energy weapons.

BG 3 and FO 3 were canceled because Interplay didn't know how to profit not because they were slow to develop. Bethesda isn't going bankrupt anytime soon.

*facepalm*

 

[janjetina]

A little too much lip service to Bethesda for my taste, but at least they understand what Fallout is and what the flaws of Fallout 2 were.
Unfortunately, they are stuck with a shitty shooter engine and a dumbed down SPECIAL (which, judging by the interview, won't be changed significantly), and, what's worse, with an impossibly short development schedule.
How do they expect to make a game on such a short schedule? Haven't they learned anything from their past mistakes, like Descent to Undermountain and KOTOR 2?

 

[fastpunk]

...

Didn't say I was expecting any major changes to the game mechanics. I just hope they can tweak that shit and make it decent, as well as keep the filler combat to a minimum. I used to be more tolerant to filler combat, but I can't seem to stomach it anymore. Don't think I'll ever get through New Vegas if they litter the thing with dungeons.

On a slightly related note, I'd like to point out a detail that gives me hope for New Vegas: in the interview, Avellone noted that "three-pronged quest resolution structure (combat/stealth/speech)" is part of Fallout's identity. As a designer on the project, I seriously hope he'll remember those words.

And if anyone from Obsidian is reading this: KEEP THE FILLER COMBAT TO A MINIMUM!!!11one

 

[Azrael the cat]

...

I used to be more tolerant to filler combat, but I can't seem to stomach it anymore.

I'm the same, and it's one of the main reasons why I'm a bit easier on some of the new games than others...mainly because I know a lot of the older games I liked were almost as bad at filler combat. I can't even bring myself to finish PS:T's fucking modron cube without running through most of it these days.

 

[JarlFrank]

I still don't mind filler combat much, as long as the combat system is reasonably good/tolerable and the encounters are varied enough.

I didn't mind Arcanum's filler much because combat is over relatively quickly, but I do mind Dragon Age's or NWN2's filler because fights take a lot longer and there's also a lot more of them and in quite a linear fashion.

 

[ghostdog]

That was actually a good read.

Kudos to Jason for spotting the bitch-worthy parts so we can let loose our scorn with ease.

 

[Zeus]

Combining weapon skills sucks. RPGs are all about character advancement; training in a specific weapon is like going to some Ninja Master and kicking into the greatest 80s training montage ever, and there was nothing more sad and pathetic than when Oblivion dropped all the weapon types and dulled the blade of every axe until they were all "Blunt Weapons."

I'm reminded of V.D.'s post describing the importance of not letting a character be good at everything--the importance of specialization. Being good at any gun is like being good at any magic spell in the game. Why even bother with skills in the first place?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

Josh sunk 90 hours into FO3? No wonder all his projects get cancelled....

So, let me get this straight: Josh started as lead on New Vegas, will stay on till the end and the game will not get canned?
What next? Flying pigs? A peace-promoting US? No whining about FO2's great humor and awesome theme-park style?

No need to repeat Bluebottle and Azrael on small arms, big/energy weapons.

BG 3 and FO 3 were canceled because Interplay didn't know how to profit not because they were slow to develop. Bethesda isn't going bankrupt anytime soon.

*facepalm*

It is what it is.

Ipply

Beth

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Listen to the lyrics. They speak to me.

http://deathprone.ytmnd.com/

 

[Forest Dweller]

As for the weapon combining thing, I agree that it's a bad idea. I can see them maybe getting rid of energy weapons, but small guns and big guns are quite different from each other, play differently, and would require different skills in real life.

The thing about the energy weapons skill is that it doesn't really make sense. We have two skills that clearly differentiate between small and big guns; and yet another, third skill that inculdes both types but isn't modified by either of those two skills. Which is a bit confusing. What the skill really seems to imply is the actual knowledge for dealing with that type of futuristic equipment. But even with that knowledge, you'd still need the basic skill of dealing with either a small or big gun.

My solution would be to keep the small guns and big guns skill but scrap the energy weapons skill. Any energy weapon would fall under either of those two skills as appropriate. But, your performance with that energy weapon would be modifed by your science skill. That way it's consistent and makes sense.