Review Some thoughts on ToEE & DnD at Kuro5

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Temple of Elemental Evil; Troika Games

<a href=http://www.kuro5hin.org>Kuro5hin</a> has posted an <a href=http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/4/10/231927/504>article</a> that looks at every aspect of <a href=http://www.troikagames.com/toee.htm>Temple of Elemental Evil</a> from the DnD point of view.
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<blockquote>Troika tried to apply the outsourced rules in order to gain market share by using this bleeding edge dice ruleset (on reputation alone, as AD&D core rules worked nicely for Bioware's products), when in fact the game becomes crippled by the use of this system, on many accounts. Alignment, back-story, spell complexity (especially higher level spells), and spatial intricacies of PPRPG are all affected by the difficulties porting PPRPG to CRPG.
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Character creation is indeed adequate in TOEE, and the computer uses the rules to save time building a merry band of adventurers using all the rules generated by d20 3.5; when this system is easy in the beginning, it goes all downhill from here.</blockquote>Very unusual point of view, to say the least. Discuss!
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Thanks, <b>Patrick</b>

 

[Voss]

The fuck?

alignment, back story and higher level spells? Affected by the rules set?

bzzzt. Try again.

Hint: backstory and high level spells: module

Oh. I see. Its an agenda toting 'PnP rules can't work in a CRPG' guy.
Thank you, drive through

 

[Vault Dweller]

Oh, come on, it was fun

Considering, there are nine (9) possible alignments and eleven (11) classes that you can start out with, you can now see ninety-nine possible story threads if the team decided to take a nominal DM's style of questing.
....
AD&D core rules worked nicely for Bioware's products

Can somebody remind me how many possible "story threads" Bio games usually have?

The level cap is partly responsible for a lack of deathmatching capability in single player or otherwise, and this therefore means a lack of robust gameplay at this time

Deathmatch! Damn! That's what had been missing from ToEE.

The first premise of this new system is that all things are created equal. Effects are equal to all other effects of the same level, and such effects are standardized to be simple to adapt to CRPG or PPRPG. Characters advance each level in standardized methods for all classes, and the only difference between character classes is the difference of ability and style, not the inherent ability scores or modifiers. Modifiers in classic RPG are bogus and unseemly...

Sounds cool. Nothing beats the fun of having a standard character who is just like everyone else. This guy can sell this ruleset in all totalitarian countries and make tons of money.

 

[Astromarine]

I read "Deathmatch" and I can't take anything else about this story seriously. I mean, what the fuck? Is this Bizarro world? Does he also have a column complaining about the lack of deep intricate turn-based play in UT2k4?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Does he also have a column complaining about the lack of deep intricate turn-based play in UT2k4?

He definitely should

 

[taks]

The fuck?

alignment, back story and higher level spells? Affected by the rules set?

i think he meant that higher levels require a LOT more content to be added to the game, particularly with spells (and feats) and such, which requires time troika obviously did not have.

very odd article. he used the terms CRPG and PPRPG a half dozen times before saying what they meant. he is also of the many that seem to think troika developed fallout.

taks

 

[Vault Dweller]

he is also of the many that seem to think troika developed fallout.

For all intends and purposes, they did.

 

[suibhne]

The article was hilariously ill-conceived and fatuous, but still worth a glance (I thought) because it's at k5. Subjects like this don't usually penetrate the geek community (at least, the non-RPG-geek community ).

Posting a play-by-play dissection would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Still, the most mind-moggling thing about the article is that it presages the "all is equal" RPG system which will FINALLY!!!111!! bridge the sundered worlds of PnP and CRPG, perhaps to create a new, synergistic PCRnPPG.

And then there was the old "BIOWARE rulez!" stuff, while criticizing ToEE for lacking the same features lacked by Bioware's game. Shazam.

Many of the comments at /. praised KotOR, but I was proud to see a few /. readers step up to the plate and testify re. the poor quality of role-playing in that game.

 

[Voss]

wait, 9 alignments and 11 classes = 99 story threads? What? I'd really hate to see a game that used alignment and class as the major (or only) factors in story development. Bleh. So Bob the LG knight (fighter), hero of a dozen crusades against the vile forces of darkness, would have the same story as Fred the LG peasant archer (fighter), who wandered into the realm of adventure after his betrothed was kidnapped by the evil wizard? Would they both start out as gladiators in the Death Pits of Krieg?
Stupid concept.

All the references to AD&D are amusing too... Does he really think that license owners' are going to keep an old system in circulation rather than their shiny new thing?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Interesting, but not to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, you know that some people will.

 

[taks]

he is also of the many that seem to think troika developed fallout.

For all intends and purposes, they did.

what, all 6 remaining troika employess that worked on it? i suppose we could also say inxile and obsidian developed it, right? feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually.

taks

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

what, all 6 remaining troika employess that worked on it? i suppose we could also say inxile and obsidian developed it, right? feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually.

Word.

 

[Limorkil]

Honestly that has to be one of the most badly written pointless articles I have ever seen on the subject of RPGs. Yeah it should not be taken seriously, but because it is total shit and not because of any humorous intent on the author's part. (The author being a pompus asshole with a eigth-grade writing ability, a Microsoft Word thesaurus and a clear desire to finish the article before mother arrives with the milk and cookies.)

For those of you who cannot be bothered to read this tripe, I can sum up the important details::
- Computers cannot think, whereas people can
- Computer games have to be developed in a finite amount of time
- Computer games have bugs
- 3.5Ed D&D is riddled with inconsistencies, whereas AD&D was absolutely perfect for computer games
- Bioware games have multiple plot threads
- Computer games tend to end and this means that people will not buy them in the future
- Deathmatch mode is a good way of extending the playable life of any CRPG
- Conclusion: gelatinous cubes and dragon turtles should be allowed to train as rogues, improve their pick lock skill and learn the two-weapon fighting feat.

 

[Vault Dweller]

what, all 6 remaining troika employess that worked on it? i suppose we could also say inxile and obsidian developed it, right? feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually.

"If not more?" Do tell. What were the roles of Feargus and MCA then?

Word.

What's that supposed to mean? What exactly do you agree with? Can you be tinsy-winsy more specific?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

what, all 6 remaining troika employess that worked on it? i suppose we could also say inxile and obsidian developed it, right? feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually.

As much? More?

Feargus was only a minor designer, and his only credit is "Division Director" in Fallout's manual. However, he did some work on SPECIAL and some location scripting in Fallout such as The Boneyards.

MCA didn't work on Fallout, period. He was busy QAing Star Trek: Starfleet Academy at the time. He did some design work on Fallout 2, though, and that's his claim to Fallout fame. He's also one sexy bitch in drag, but that's another matter.

Perhaps you mean Chris Taylor and not Chris Avellone, since ChrisT was creditted head of design in Fallout and also worked with Timmy C, Jason Anderson, and Feargus on SPECIAL. Then again, perhaps you have no idea what you're talking about at all and are just poker facing.

Either way, it's kind of hard to say that Feargus had more of a hand in Fallout than the guys at Troika and it's absolutely absurd to say MCA did when he wasn't even involved in the development. MCA and Feargus both have a lot of accomplishments under their belts, but you're giving them credit they're not entirely due.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

What's that supposed to mean? What exactly do you agree with? Can you be tinsy-winsy more specific?

Troika didn't create Fallout. Thats pretty much what i agree with. That some people behind Troika had input in the game isn't the same as crediting the company - which was not even established then - with its creation.

Anything else, oh ever-inquisitive authority figure?

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you paid attention, I said "for all intends and purposes", not that Troika produced Fallout. I think it's much more fitting to credit Fallout to Troika then to Interplay, since like I said before, if anybody can produce a true sequel that would be Troika, not Interplay, not Black Isle, and not Obsidian. Fallout 2 and Van Buren pretty much proved that.

Also, it looked like you agreed that "Feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually", but seeing my link and Saint's explanation, decided to stick with good ol' " technically, Troika didn't make Fallout" argument. Check the facts before you post next time.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If you paid attention, I said "for all intends and purposes", not that Troika produced Fallout.

I didn't said otherwise either. You asked me what exactly was it taks said i agreed with, and i said it. Period. No need to jump the gun on something so trivial, really.

Also, it looked like you agreed that "Feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually", but seeing my link and Saint's explanation, decided to stick with good ol' " technically, Troika didn't make Fallout" argument. Check the facts before you post next time.

I did. Troika didn't made Fallout, so crediting it to them, as a company, is not to be taken seriously. Mebbe someone is not really paying due attention here?

 

[taks]

what, all 6 remaining troika employess that worked on it? i suppose we could also say inxile and obsidian developed it, right? feargus and MCA had as much a hand in its development, if not more, actually.

"If not more?" Do tell. What were the roles of Feargus and MCA then?

Word.

What's that supposed to mean? What exactly do you agree with? Can you be tinsy-winsy more specific?

not MCA, my bad.

mark

 

[taks]

i think my point (though now probably lost) is that there are 21 people listed on the webpage for fallout (certainly more in the manual), and of those, i know of only a few (i've heard 6 is the actual number) that work for troika. tim was a programmer that was listed in the credits as a designer because of the initial concept, but he didn't do any major design, putting him in the same creative ballpark as fergie. maybe leonard had a much larger influence, i've never heard one way or another. but crediting troika either way with "the development of fallout" is just as ridiculous as giving credit to inxile or obsidian, since all three have a few employees that worked on fallout. as well as saying "it might as well have been..."

i would be more likely to believe such statements if a good majority of those folks were at troika, but they aren't.

taks

PS: i realized MCA was a fallout 2 guy soon after i typed it... just took a while for the error in my ways to sink in.

 

[Vault Dweller]

crediting troika either way with "the development of fallout" is just as ridiculous as giving credit to inxile or obsidian, since all three have a few employees that worked on fallout.

Yes, there are many people who worked on the game, yet some people's contribution is more valuable and important then others (char system for example). I'm surprised that gaming communities prefer to associate games with studios instead of individuals though. It makes little sense to me. I'm not saying that only Tim Cain and few others should claim the credit, certainly everyone who worked on Fallout should be proud to put that on the resume, but in terms of studios, Troika has a full moral right to add "from the creators of Fallout" line. My 2 cents.

 

[Elwro]

Now that's one of the most idiotical articles I've read in a while.

Hit points, stats, skills and all were first developed by Gary using Tolkien's work as a solid base for story and development

. It just shows that they guy doesn't have a hint what the original DnD was about. There was no trace of any story in the rulebook. And what development does he mean? Tolkien invented XPs?

 

[Volourn]

No they don't. They'd be lying. Period.

They could say created by a half dozen developers who HELPED created FO would be more fitting.

Troika didn't create FO. Interplay/BIS did. Period.

As for the article; it's not even worth a thread so I won't comment on it.

 

[EEVIAC]

Why is it that anyone who does their job is somehow (magically, comunistically) entitled to an equal share of credit for the end product? I think its time to change the brass plates in the museum so that it credits the guy that sold Schiele the water colours and paper, the model that posed, and the landlady that rented him the studio. I mean who the fuck is Egon Schiele to credit himself as the sole artist? Its not like he pulped the wood himself, or went out into the forest to collect ochres...

 

[Transcendent One]

Troika didn't create FO. Interplay/BIS did. Period.

Claiming that BIS created it is as incorrect as claiming Troika created it. Interplay made Fallout. At that stage there was no division and branching of Interplay into new companies (or even if there was it wouldn't be related to Fallout). It was just Interplay. Period.