Game News JE Sawyer on guns & gender

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Fallout: New Vegas; Obsidian Entertainment

<p>Josh Sawyer addresses the issues with the merging of small guns &amp; big guns and the alleged transphobia. <a href="http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=54924" target="_blank">Read the whole thing at NMA.</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>The exact categorization of weapons in F:NV isn't rooted in the logic of transferable skills from real life, but it's arguable they never were previously, either (missile launcher/flamer/minigun, for example). The categorizations have more to do with being clear and consistent with definitions. It follows this basic pattern:</p>
<ul>
<li> Does it explode? It's an Explosive.</li>
<li> Does it use Small Energy Cells, Microfusion Cells, or other energy ammo? It's an Energy Weapon.</li>
<li> Does it use conventional bullets of some flavor as ammo? It's a Gun.</li>
</ul>
<p>So while it's accurate to say that Big Guns no longer exists as a category, it's not accurate to say that Big Guns and Small Guns were combined. The weapons in Big Guns were divided among the other weapon skills.<br /> <br /> I know not everyone will be happy with this re-organization, but those are the reasons for the change. I hope the reasons are clear, even if you disagree with the decision. Thanks.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/98005-fallout-new-vegas-forum-activity.html">GB</a></p>

 

[Norfleet]

I think it would have made more sense to simply combine all the various handheld gun weapons (small guns, energy weapons) into a single standardized Marksmanship skill, because, frankly, that's more or less how it is in real life. Changing the type of power source and projectile fired does not significantly change the basic skills involved in hitting targets at a distance with it: Point, pull the trigger.

 

[Shannow]

since we do have Strength requirements on weapons (resulting in increased sway for firearms and a decreased rate of fire for melee/unarmed), where you invest your skill points and SPECIAL points is still pretty important. A fully upgraded minigun wielded by a character with high Guns and high Strength cuts down rooms of people like a scythe, even at relatively long range. In the hands of an unskilled, low Strength character, it sprays a lot of bullets all over the place.

Sounds good.
Now weapon skill only needs to affect reload time, accuracy, spray and chance of jamming instead of damage and it'd be a lot closer to how I would have adapted SPECIAL to RT/3D...

 

[Shannow]

I think it would have made more sense to simply combine all the various handheld gun weapons (small guns, energy weapons) into a single standardized Marksmanship skill, because, frankly, that's more or less how it is in real life. Changing the type of power source and projectile fired does not significantly change the basic skills involved in hitting targets at a distance with it: Point, pull the trigger.

Pistols vs rifles: Huge difference.
rifle vs maschine gun: Pretty big difference.
maschine gun vs RPG: Also quite big.

I can't hit shit with pistols. I'm awesome with rifles and pretty good with maschine guns. RPGs need some getting used to because they don't shoot in a straight line but more like in a ballistic spiral.

It does make sense to put different guns in different weapon categories, even from a RL perspective. Of course that doesn't mean that the past, present and future categories used in FO "X" are "realistical".
But I can live with mechanics that came more about gameplay and mechanics if they're not completely non-sensical.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

I think it would have made more sense to simply combine all the various handheld gun weapons (small guns, energy weapons) into a single standardized Marksmanship skill, because, frankly, that's more or less how it is in real life. Changing the type of power source and projectile fired does not significantly change the basic skills involved in hitting targets at a distance with it: Point, pull the trigger.

From previous thread:

How about we depreciate the repair skill. From now on, repairing small guns is determined by small guns skill, energy weapons by energy weapons, etc. Actually shooting the weapon goes by either the highest of the three skills or some kind of algorithm that combines all three into one 'shooty' stat. Makes sense that shooting should be universal or at least somewhat so, you are just pointing the weapon and pulling the trigger. But maintaining the ballistic weapons is fundamentally different from maintaining the energy weapons and explosive weapons.

Problem 1: NPC's repairing weapons takes away a lot of the effect of the system.

Solution: Either decrease NPC strength at repairing weapons, or remove it entirely. Or greatly increase the cost, or something.

Problem 2: There is no longer any repair skill for random skill checks in game.

Solution: Its stupid to have an entirely different repair stat thats used only for non combat situations. You could divide repair situations into high tech and low tech for small guns and energy weapons respectively, or you could merge it into the science skill. But neither of these options are really the best, anyone else have any ideas to solve this?.

Which I think will be a lot better in terms of character diversity and balance then simply making every gun tied to a single skill.

 

[Tails]

Such changes would be good, if there was emphasis on h2h/melee combat (like it was suppose to be in Van Buren) or ammo was scarce, but none of this will happen I guess.

 

[Norfleet]

Pistols vs rifles: Huge difference.

No, it's simply a degree of acclimation and difficulty. Pistols are intrinsically more difficult than rifles. However, if you learn to use one, you will manage basic competency in any of the others.

rifle vs maschine gun: Pretty big difference.

A heavy machine gun is no longer a handheld weapon. Even then, the skill in operating one is more in controlling for the recoil of firing many bullets than in single-shot usage.

maschine gun vs RPG: Also quite big.

RPGs are not bullet-shooting guns at all. Their skills are fairly different. For instance, shooting into a crosswind with a gun, you would aim upwind. Doing the same with an RPG, you would do the opposite, which seems very counterintuitive until you grasp the aerodynamic principles at work, as an RPG is not a ballistic projectile, but one that is powered.

I can't hit shit with pistols. I'm awesome with rifles and pretty good with maschine guns.

See? You're illustrating the difference in intrinsic difficulty of weapon right there: Rifles are easy to use. They're heavier, so naturally handle recoil better. They have greater intrinsic accuracy, so it's easier to hit a target at range. A machine gun is similar, but not generally as precise an instrument, as volume of fire becomes more important than precise accuracy, but it shares many of the helpful characteristics of rifles.

RPGs need some getting used to because they don't shoot in a straight line but more like in a ballistic spiral.

Because they're not ballistic projectiles at all, yes.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

If you are hitting more then 10-15% with a pistol you are doing better then average. Pistols are just really shitty weapons as far as anything other then concealment and draw time goes.

 

[circ]

Pistols vs rifles: Huge difference.
rifle vs maschine gun: Pretty big difference.
maschine gun vs RPG: Also quite big.

I can't hit shit with pistols. I'm awesome with rifles and pretty good with maschine guns. RPGs need some getting used to because they don't shoot in a straight line but more like in a ballistic spiral.

I had shot shotguns and bb guns before the army. Even if I hadn't, rifles were extremely easy to hit things with. A correctly calibrated sniper rifle is like shooting with cheats.

Pistol takes a lot of practice. A first timer will most likely even miss the target at very close range. So bunching rifles with pistols is retarded.

Machine gun like rifle requires no experience either. Just use short bursts and you can hit what you're aiming at pretty much.

RPG (LAW) requires no practice either. Unless there are a lot of buttons and something needs to be set, all you need to usually do is remove the caps, aim and press.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

rifle vs maschine gun: Pretty big difference.

A heavy machine gun is no longer a handheld weapon. Even then, the skill in operating one is more in controlling for the recoil of firing many bullets than in single-shot usage.

There are LMGs and GPMGs.

If you are hitting more then 10-15% with a pistol you are doing better then average. Pistols are just really shitty weapons as far as anything other then concealment and draw time goes.

It would be interesting to see a cRPG/tactical wargame that correctly models the accuracy of various weapons.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

If you are hitting more then 10-15% with a pistol you are doing better then average. Pistols are just really shitty weapons as far as anything other then concealment and draw time goes.

It would be interesting to see a cRPG/tactical wargame that correctly models the accuracy of various weapons.

You have yet to play JA2? Go do it now.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

No, it's simply a degree of acclimation and difficulty. Pistols are intrinsically more difficult than rifles. However, if you learn to use one, you will manage basic competency in any of the others.

Didn't know that. Thought knowing how to handle a pistol wouldn't help me with other kinds of guns. Cool.

Updated my CK.txt

 

[Angthoron]

No, it's simply a degree of acclimation and difficulty. Pistols are intrinsically more difficult than rifles. However, if you learn to use one, you will manage basic competency in any of the others.

Didn't know that. Thought knowing how to handle a pistol wouldn't help me with other kinds of guns. Cool.

Updated my CK.txt

Through learning the teachings of Norfleet, you have become stronger.

 

[Shannow]

Pistols vs rifles: Huge difference.

No, it's simply a degree of acclimation and difficulty. Pistols are intrinsically more difficult than rifles. However, if you learn to use one, you will manage basic competency in any of the others.

Nope. In all your posts you're not even really disagreeing with me but: Learn to use a knife well and you'll be as competent as with a sword (implying that swords are easier to use != knife fighting is the same as sword fighting). Which is pretty much what you're saying here.

rifle vs maschine gun: Pretty big difference.

A heavy machine gun is no longer a handheld weapon. Even then, the skill in operating one is more in controlling for the recoil of firing many bullets than in single-shot usage.

See, again you're not disagreeing.

maschine gun vs RPG: Also quite big.

RPGs are not bullet-shooting guns at all. Their skills are fairly different. For instance, shooting into a crosswind with a gun, you would aim upwind. Doing the same with an RPG, you would do the opposite, which seems very counterintuitive until you grasp the aerodynamic principles at work, as an RPG is not a ballistic projectile, but one that is powered.

And again.

I can't hit shit with pistols. I'm awesome with rifles and pretty good with maschine guns.

See? You're illustrating the difference in intrinsic difficulty of weapon right there: Rifles are easy to use. They're heavier, so naturally handle recoil better. They have greater intrinsic accuracy, so it's easier to hit a target at range. A machine gun is similar, but not generally as precise an instrument, as volume of fire becomes more important than precise accuracy, but it shares many of the helpful characteristics of rifles.

And I never claimed anything else. Which still doesn't mean that anybody with extensive practice with rifles would automatically be just as relatively good with pistols, etc. But that is exactly what a "marksman" skill as you suggested would mean. And what you claimed above. At most it would make sense introducing basic synergies between the weapon skills.

RPGs need some getting used to because they don't shoot in a straight line but more like in a ballistic spiral.

Because they're not ballistic projectiles at all, yes.

Again, I don't see what the point of this comment is...
And on RPGs: If you're simply given the weapon and told to "shoot the target" without any introduction to the aiming mechanism it's not as easy to hit as circ implied

 

[Angthoron]

I should also point out that each of the mentioned weapon subtypes is used differently, in other words, you can't run around firing bursts with a sniper rifle and there's little point of setting into a real comfy position with a pistol as opposed to a HMG. Each weapon type requires different set of skills to support the proper use - what you see in Fallout on the screen isn't necessarily what "really goes on" - the turn can be interpreted as a dude running and firing a burst mid-run etc.

Though sure, when practicing against inanimate targets that don't move and don't shoot back, the difference between the way a pistol and a rifle are used are pretty minimal.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I'd like to see a system like that, BUT combined with a minimum strength requirement to use some larger weapons (miniguns, minigun lasers etc) effectively. Below that strength you're basically firing wildly and your accuracy drops massively.

Along the same lines, I'd like to see some weapons with 'auto-targetting' features, replacing the perception requirement with intelligence, or giving those with some minimum int a bosst to perception - give the science guys a leg up - but with a large penality to movement whil aiming.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I'd like to see some weapons with 'auto-targetting' features, replacing the perception requirement with intelligence

Wouldn't a weapon with auto-target be retard friendly?

 

[Ausir]

There is a strength requirement for weapons in FNV.

 

[Mangoose]

Yet again, why can't people read?

The exact categorization of weapons in F:NV isn't rooted in the logic of transferable skills from real life... more to do with being clear and consistent with definitions.

The overall intent of the change has nothing to do with realism, so nitpicking about how it's not realistic makes you an irrelevant twat. The merits and flaws of the gun merge should be discussed in terms of game balance and design.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

We read that part. We were discussing if making it more "realistic" would be better or not.

 

[Mangoose]

We read that part. We were discussing if making it more "realistic" would be better or not.

Obviously it would not be better, because it would result in overhauling the UI, itemization, potentially the combat system, not to mention reaching a compromise on what constitutes "realistic" categorization in the beginning and then balancing all the encounters and item drops afterwords. Time better spent on developing plot, C&C, combat encounters, etc.

 

[Angthoron]

I would argue that changing game mechanics for FOblivious would be a far better step. Maybe it would actually be, like, playable then.

And the UI is horribad already, overhauling that would be a good thing.

 

[Mangoose]

Except that you would be stuck with the same crappy barren world with the same crappy C&C and the same stories and the same crappy Megaton.

 

[Angthoron]

Well, you have to start somewhere. The biggest problem, besides the game being called "Fallout 3" and being shit, is that instead of mid-realism PA sci-fi Bethesda made a complete High Fantasy "PA" sci-fi. The genre shift and the lack of realism is one of the founding reasons why the Codex really sees the game to be shit, I would argue, as almost all the problems stem from that. It's like the very foundation is made of shit, so you can only slap more shit on top to actually manage to build something.

A shift to realism would mean a lot of retarded shit would drop away by itself.

 

[Mangoose]

True, but is realism in the skill categorizations a big part of where the problems come from? In FO1 & 2 the skills were still pretty "unrealistic" but their realism was not as much of a problem as their balance of utility in game (which is what Sawyer is focusing on).

You do have a point though, that with the switch to a first-person perspective that unrealistic properties are much more obvious. I guess what turned me off FO3 was a combat realism thing (having to shoot at someone 100 times to kill them), BUT the story and the setting didn't hook me into the game either.