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Interview Warren Spector on Choice, Consequences, & Morality

Jason

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Tags: Deus Ex; Warren Spector

<p>In the midst of promoting his upcoming platformer, Epic Mickey, Warren Spector <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5928/putting_the_epic_in_epic_mickey.php" target="_blank">discussed choice and consequences</a> with Gamasutra.</p>
<blockquote>If you go back and look at Deus Ex, in particular -- which is actually the best expression of what I'm about to say -- anybody who can say there's a good way to solve problems and a bad way to solve problems was not paying attention as they play. There are just different choices and different consequences.<br /><br />Okay, we've got to get back to Disney Epic Mickey at some point here. But if right in the beginning of the game, if you go and kill every terrorist in the Statue of Liberty, you've saved the day, you succeed and some people think you're a hero and other people think "you shouldn't have done that".<br /><br />And there are different rewards, and different costs for doing that, and for killing no one, okay? It's not that it's good or evil, it's that there is a price to pay for being a warmonger, and there's a price to pay for being a pacifist. That is true in the real world, and it's true in the game. But there's a benefit to each one of those as well. There are different costs and different benefits.<br /><br />I hate telling players what good and evil is, and I hate telling players what's right and wrong. What I want to do is throw situations out there, and let them explore for themselves, and come to their own conclusions about that.</blockquote>
<p>And unsurprisingly, Deus Ex also comes up in an <a href="http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/junction-points-warren-spector-interview?page=1" target="_blank">interview with Eurogamer</a>.</p>
<blockquote>Eurogamer: Do you get sick and tired of being asked what you think of the new Deus Ex?<br /><br />Warren Spector: No, I never get sick of that, actually. It's funny that everybody is so interested in what I think about it. I think people want me to be really upset, like, "Oh! Someone else is going to make a game! It's my baby! Grrr!" I just don't feel that at all.<br /><br />It's almost cooler that someone else is doing it because it means I was a part, and my team was a part, of creating something that has a life beyond us. It's bigger than us. That's incredible. I can't even describe how that feels. That feels better than making the game. It's like there's something out there that's bigger than you are.</blockquote>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
 

Cassidy

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Re: Warren Spector on Choice, Consequences, & Morality

Jason said:
EXTREME Mickey[...]kill[...]being a warmonger[...]

Fixed

The idea I'm getting from reading this is so ridiculous I'd rather not think about it. It just doesn't fit. Yes, American McGee did something like that with another character, but correlating a Disney game with Deus Ex is almost definitively a Molyneux-grade bullshit.

:decline:
 

Sceptic

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More importantly, did you have a look at the concept art? That shit looked awesome.

The interview's also the polar opposite of a Molyneux interview. It's nice to see at least one developer really understands how morality and C&C should work together.
 

Xor

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Warren Spector is officially a TRU BRO developer in my book.
 

StrangeCase

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He's got some interesting things to say, at least. I'm not really all that impressed with "no evil, no good, only consequence", simply because lots of Bioware developers spout that line and produce... well, no intriguing moral issues, to say the least.

Still, he's got some credibility with Deus Ex, and he's worked on some other good titles in the past too. The Disney aspect doesn't do much for me, but maybe I'll bite if the writing is clever and the gameplay is good.

And if it handily outperforms most RPG's on the C&C front, I won't know whether to laugh or cry.
 

Sceptic

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StrangeCase said:
He's got some interesting things to say, at least. I'm not really all that impressed with "no evil, no good, only consequence", simply because lots of Bioware developers spout that line and produce... well, no intriguing moral issues, to say the least.

Still, he's got some credibility with Deus Ex
See that's the big difference. When Bio spout this line they point you to ME (with its paragon vs renegade) or to DAO (with its lack of consequences). Spector is pointing to specific situations in Deus Ex, a game much lover around here for some of the things that he points out. I didn't make the contrast with Molyneux lightly either: Molyneux will make amazing promises on a game then completely fail to deliver on them, then start the hype for his next game by praising the "fulfilled" promises of the previous one then saying how they're taking it to the next level. It helps his credibility that Spector never claims Deus Ex was a bona fide RPG.
 
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I didn't get the impression that he was making that comment about Epic Mickey at all - i.e. the different choices thing was talking about DE in retrospect, not what Epic Mickey is going to be like (frankly, the Mickey Mouse fanbase are kids and folks who grew up as disney fans - and I'm not saying that as an insult - I'm saying that he should be true to that fanbase and make the lighthearted romp that disney fans want, rather than subverting the icon into something that folks like us, who don't even like Mickey, would prefer to see).

TL;DR rant about my views on folks that produce great stuff and fail to replicate it, contained in the spoilers.
Anyway, I'm one of those guys that thinks if you make one great contribution to a genre, then you deserve respect regardless of what you shit out since. The stones are legends regardless of what they did post-73. Pink Floyd will forever rock the 70s. I like PIL, but even for those who hate it, John Lyndon/Rotten will always be a legend for the Sex Pistols one album. Molyneux is a fucking tool, but even his own douchery can't take the Dungeon Keeper series away from him.

No matter how many games Avellone fails to finish, PS:T guarantees him a spot in gaming greatness. Regardless of whether HL2 sucks or is good, HL1 make Valve one of the great shooters. The awesomeness of Doom rises above the stench of Daikatana.

About 1000 pages of infuriatingly shite award-covered novels where everyone from a 6year old kid to a homeless guy talks like a history professor that read like they're systematically designed to kill any love of english literature amongst students, can't take away Delillo's Underworld (the one where he finally learnt to write dialogue and made thousands of professors and literary award panels look like idiots for not realising that the poetic prose they were praising was just bad writing that he abandoned once he learnt better)

Ryan Reynolds will always have the fact that he's banging Scarlett Johansson.
Ed Norton will always have Fight Club. Alec Baldwin will always have The Hunt for Red October (and that he kicked Harrison Ford's ass at portraying the same character)

Ang Lee will always have convinced Anne Hathaway that getting topless on camera would be a great way to transition into serious roles. Though kudos to Barbara Kopple for convincing her that a slightly more gratuious showing in Havoc would also be worthwhile. A quick wikipedia search of Ms Kopple's directorial work reveals a list of epsiodes of b-grade shows and d-grade movies. Nonetheless, Ms Kopple, I will always salute you as a true great and a wonderful contributor to the noble artistry of film.

Warren Spector has Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Deus Ex. He can spend the next 40 years making Hello Kitty dating sims for handheld consoles and he will still be a fucking legend.
 

Jaesun

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Azrael the cat said:
Warren Spector has Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Deus Ex. He can spend the next 40 years making Hello Kitty dating sims for handheld consoles and he will still be a fucking legend.

Ultima VII: Part 2 Serpent Isle was also his baby.
 

1eyedking

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Broseidon said:
I think the true choice in Deus Ex was choosing which doors to open. The oak doors were the evil choices obviously.
I don't know what the fuck I just quoted, but man, I dig your nickname.
 

tunguska

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azrael the cat said:
Warren Spector has Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Deus Ex. He can spend the next 40 years making Hello Kitty dating sims for handheld consoles and he will still be a fucking legend.

Actually Warren Spector didn't have anything to do with the design of either of the Underworlds. He was a producer. What he really did was run interference for Blue Sky/Looking Glass with Origin so that they could go about their business making a great game. FWIW Spector himself claims no credit for either game and is kind of frustrated with people like you who give him such undeserved credit. He was strictly a suit, but still definitely one of the good guys. Paul Neurath and Doug Church deserve most of the credit for the greatness of UW1 and 2. Especially UW1. UW2 was a much bigger project and there you have to thank Tim Stellmach and many others as well. Still when you think of the underworlds you should be thinking Neurath/Church, not Spector, although he did have a ghoul named after him in the first game.
 

Sceptic

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tunguska said:
although he did have a ghoul named after him in the first game.
A Spectre actually :smug:

UW1 is one of the few (one of the only?) cases I can think of where a suit interfering with the project was a GOOD thing. If it weren't for Spector UW1 would've stayed what it was initially meant to be - a tech demo. He may not deserve any credit for making the game, as you said, but I think he certainly deserves credit for getting Origin interested in the game and in making it an Ultima.
 

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