Interview PnP guys talk about D&D in computer games

[Spazmo]

Tags: Neverwinter Nights 2

<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc">Gamespot PC</a> has a short <a href=http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/08/21/news_6105431.html>article</a> from Gen Con's big 30th Anniversary of D&D thing where they talk to a few D&D personalities--<b>Ed Stark</b>, Eberron creator <b>Keith Baker</b> and prolific fantasy author <b>R.A. Salvatore</b>--about what they think of D&D in games. Surprisingly, their outlook is <i>optimistic</i>!
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<blockquote>Keith Baker, freelance game designer and creator of the Eberron campaign setting, echoed this sentiment. "So far, I'm very pleased by what I've been seeing," said Baker, in reference to the way in which the Dungeons & Dragons license has been used in both current and upcoming games like Dungeons &Dragons Online and Dungeons & Dragons: Dragonshard. "[In some ways, video] games let you explore a broader scope of things than you can do on a tabletop, so I'm very excited to see where they go with that."</blockquote>
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Really? Because I can't think of many. In PnP you can do anything (until you annoy your DM). In computer games, you can only do what the designers predicted you might want to do.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well of course Mr Baker would say that. He's the creator of Eberron and he (like any sane normal person) would be happy that his creation is being marketed as much as it is, and if I made a D&D campaign with its own unique setting and someone wanted to turn it into a high-profile, triple A title like Dragonshard, I'd be pretty damn happy, too.

It's not as if Ed Del Castillo (Dragonshard) is new to the RTS genre. The guy produced the original Command & Conquer and Red Alert games.

 

[Whipporowill]

Mr Baker worked on one of the few MMORPG's I actually thought had promise - Lost Continents. A pulp adventure kind of thing, guess he goes for that...

 

[Reklar]

I've gotta agree with Spazmo on this one, PnP has far more vareity than any cRPG, or any other genre game for that matter, will ever have. Until truly reactive AI is developed with an open-ended architecture that allows the player to explore whatever possibility comes to mind in that setting, we're going to see problems like bad pathing, weak AI, and ultimately linear gameplay. I predict the gaming industry won't make a giant leap forward for perhaps 20-30 years at the rate it's going now.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Jinsai]

Sooner than that

I'm a bit more optimistic.

What you really want is a simulation of freedom -- enough that the player feels like they can do whatever they want. Coding for every possibility is just wasteful, especially when many players won't ever see the content.

Right now, too many games are too linear, but I believe that will change as people crave more sophisticated games. So far, the mass market has reacted strongly to very simple games.

All it takes is one best-selling title with "good" AI and you'll see everyone doing it.

 

[Voss]

But since there isn't any such thing as 'good' AI, the point is moot.

Those things inherently evil. Leave 'em alone for 5 minutes and they start chanting "Kill All Humans" in unison. Then they inevitably try to take over the world, or you get the whole sentinent AI's are people too and deserve rights crap. (which is all just a ploy, but hey). When reality becomes a sci-fi cliche its time to nuke everything and start over.
Mind you, you'll probably never see Reklar's reactive open ended architecture. So you won't have to worry about the end of human civilization (well, at least not from that direction, anyway)

The simulation of freedom has to be pretty impressive though. As it currently is, if you look at the game for 5 minutes, and are reasonably intelligent, you can tell you're being herded.

 

[Monte Carlo]

I love D&D but you can never have "total freedom" in a D&D title. It's still too class-bound, alignment bound and dice roll-bound for that.

I love stats and tactical combat, but something like SPECIAL (but without levels) is, for me, the way to create "freedom", or lateral character development, in a CRPG. I'd love to see a crack gamer team McGuyver a decent fantasy SPECIAL variant. Any Torn code still hanging around. What was Lionheart's take on it? I know the end product was shit, but what about char.gen?

Cheers
MC

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I love D&D but you can never have "total freedom" in a D&D title. It's still too class-bound, alignment bound and dice roll-bound for that.

Which is curious. With all the branding of Rule Zero and similar thing, you'd expect that developers could take a more personal approach to things like classes and alignment as they have done in the past with other rules and setting-specific characters, organizations and locales.

 

[suibhne]

I love D&D but you can never have "total freedom" in a D&D title. It's still too class-bound, alignment bound and dice roll-bound for that.

Which is curious. With all the branding of Rule Zero and similar thing, you'd expect that developers could take a more personal approach to things like classes and alignment as they have done in the past with other rules and setting-specific characters, organizations and locales.

Developers have tried (IWD2, e.g.), only to be smacked down by WotC. Rule 0, it would seem, conflicts with the Rules of Acquisition.

Still, tabletop will never have PARTIKEL EFFECKS!1!111

 

[Voss]

And is the better for it.

IWD2 is a bad example for variant classes. That wasn't 'oh, heres a cool idea for a class', that was 'the 3.0 version of the ranger sucks ass, let's kill it and use a different version from someone else'
Even phrased diplomatically, that isn't going to go over well.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's rather funny they won't allow someone to use a class that's basically the same class but the rules are a little better for that class.. Meanwhile, they're taking D&D and making console games like Demonstone and RTS games like DragonShard. You'd think the idea of preserving the core rules would be a good thing, but apparently that rule is flexible enough to make offshoots of D&D that don't follow any of the rules at all.

 

[Voss]

Thats exactly it though. They can't (or rather won't) say go buy that guys stuff, he makes better rules than we do. (Though it isn't much of an issue anymore since the 3.5 ranger is much better... Though I've come across one even better than that. The Iron Kingdom's Ranger 'Scout'. Much more a military scout/hunter/outlaw. No magic. No goofy ass animal companion to die five minutes in because it annoys the dm. No druid/fighter hybrid thats a worse choice than either. No forced weapon style. Just a pure focus on the wilderness warrior/skill guy aspects with some bonus feats to make up for the loss of magic)

And come on, when wandering in different genres, all sort of things get lost or changed in translation. With a CRPG of a RPG, they need to at least try to stick to the ruleset where it doesn't conflict with the change in media.

 

[Stark]

Re: Sooner than that

I'm a bit more optimistic.

What you really want is a simulation of freedom -- enough that the player feels like they can do whatever they want. Coding for every possibility is just wasteful, especially when many players won't ever see the content.

Right now, too many games are too linear, but I believe that will change as people crave more sophisticated games. So far, the mass market has reacted strongly to very simple games.

All it takes is one best-selling title with "good" AI and you'll see everyone doing it.

well, better simulation of physics help too, and i believe games like HL2 that feature sufficiently good physics give us a freedom to explore game solutions that were previously unavailable to us. Imagine, you're on top of a hill and a bunch of orcs rush towards you, and all you need to do is roll the barrels down the hill (simulation of gravity) to knock them down. These are unscripted moments but yet allow larger freedom for you to solve problems in ways that are unforseen by coder. The example i cited above is very much executable within the technology available currently.

as for good "AI" that changes story depending on your action... well I think the technology would not be around for decades at least. however, NPC disposition towards you can be automated via some AI technology (for example neural network) that is fed input everytime they notice you perform some action. I think Fable is probably doing some of these. If we can find more ways of interaction with NPC that allow us to notice the differences in disposition it'll go a long way enchancing the gaming experience.

The disposition factor is used in Morrowind but it's just a simple linear bar and it affects some of NPC's conversation to you. It's interesting, but I think the potential can be brought forward more.