Editorial Jeff Vogel on Dodging Forum Flamewars

[Jason]

Tags: Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

<p>Jeff Vogel of <a href="http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/" target="_blank">Spiderweb Software</a> recommends that developers <a href="http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html" target="_blank">keep some distance</a> from forums.</p>
<blockquote>Forums contain a cacophony of people telling you to do diametrically opposite things, very loudly, often for bad reasons. There will be plenty of good ideas, but picking them out from the bad ones is unreliable and a lot of work. If you try to make too many people happy at once, you will drive yourself mad. You have to be very, very careful who you let into your head.</blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.positech.co.uk/" target="_blank">Positech's</a> Cliff Harris, on the other hand, believes it's possible to enter these discussions without submitting to the hivemind, <a href="http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/?p=992" target="_blank">provided you have the right attitude</a>.</p>
<blockquote>You develop a huge, planet-sized ego such as mine. This solves everything. That way, you can easily brush aside 5 page forum threads saying how you need to change the game to do X, because you know you are right and they are all wrong. It&rsquo;s pretty much essential as a game designer working on an original design, to be pretty full of ego.<br /><br />Most really good design decisions seem pretty insane. A turn-based life simulation game doesn&rsquo;t sound like a top hit, nor does a politics game with a complex charting system of icons as a GUI. Nor does a space battle game where you can&rsquo;t control anything. They all seemed to work for me. A virtual dolls house worked well for one guy, as I recall. You need confidence and ego to push those ideas through.</blockquote>
<p><br /><em>Thanks to</em> SUBSCRIPT OUT OF RANGE <em>for pointing this out</em></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>

 

[Fat Dragon]

You develop a huge, planet-sized ego such as mine. This solves everything. That way, you can easily brush aside 5 page forum threads saying how you need to change the game to do X, because you know you are right and they are all wrong. It’s pretty much essential as a game designer working on an original design, to be pretty full of ego.

Yeah, that worked out pretty well for guys like John Romero.

 

[denizsi]

Romero was on crack, not ego-tripping.

 

[Yeesh]

It's a delicate balance. Speaking of, I recommend developers make their shit vastly customizable and then leave balancing to the community. Problem solved.

Think Dominions CBM. Except maybe slightly more customizable up front.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

This news post is in error. Unit branded "shihonage" does not exist. That unit is designated number 9034.

 

[Yeesh]

This news post is in error. Unit branded "shihonage" does not exist. That unit is designated number 9034.

You have 30 seconds to comply.

 

[ecliptic]

"SUBSCRIPT OUT OF RANGE" is the best handle, ever.

 

[ecliptic]

Says 614.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Vogel doesn't need to read the forums, for financial reasons he is committed to making the same game over and over again with few minor changes.

 

[Yeesh]

Vogel doesn't need to read the forums, for financial reasons he is committed to making the same game over and over again with few minor changes.

Oh be nice, he's using a whole new engine for Genevernum 7.

 

[denizsi]

What has been the biggest change from one Vogel game to the other? Enlighten me, Codex.

 

[ElectricOtter]

What has been the biggest change from one Vogel game to the other? Enlighten me, Codex.

Exile 3 -> Nethergate.

 

[denizsi]

And what were the biggest changes?

 

[OminousBlueDot]

Title, I'm assuming.

 

[shihonage]

You know what else is out of range?





YOUR FACE

 

[OminousBlueDot]

This Vogel fellow seems to be of a weak mind, easily manipulated. He must join the 'Dex, becoming our pawn, and implement a stealth sub-system (with noise monitor, and NPC vision) within AoD.

[Edit=Fragment]

 

[bylam]

It's a fair point.
What percentage of players actually post on the forums of a given title anyway? 5% of the actual players? 2%?

When I worked on MMOs, which are ostensibly all about community, we had to disseminate any major announcements through emails to subscribers, the forums and in the game itself. The forums were just not a reliable way to reach the player base.

Depending on the size of the project, of course. The dev interaction on the Iron Tower forums is perfect for the project, for example.
Forums are generally a good place to gauge issues (bugs, design flaws) but not a good place to let random player X tell you how to design a feature.

 

[BlaineMono]

Devs should go the Tarn Adams (of dwarf fortress) way and implement anything forum dwellers ask for, no matter how stupid - provided they donate enough money.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

And what were the biggest changes?

Historical fantasy setting based on Rome. Apparently it was a flop because people wanted fantasy fantasy.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And what were the biggest changes?

Historical fantasy setting based on Rome. Apparently it was a flop because people wanted fantasy fantasy.

Yeah, he even did a remake of it a number of years later on better tech (his late Geneforge/Avernum tech), and folks still didn't buy it because it wasn't fantasy-fantasy. Vogel's bitched about that a number of times, so I presume he'd rather have been doing newer settings - not that Geneforge isn't a highly original setting (having 2-3 original settings > 5 different names for generic 'high-fantasy-setting' - or, for that matter, the 1 high-fantasy / 1 sci-fi of Bethesda and Bioware).

Actually, to extrapolate what I've unintelligibly put in the brackets: I'm not entirely sure why Vogel gets crap for doing endless Geneforge and Avernum repeats. The big studios do the same thing, except with far less original settings. Look at Bioware and Bethesda - they're on the same model of having 2 settings and churning out the sequels for each. Pirahna Byres has one setting. 2 settings, at least one of which is seriously original (Geneforge), plus a 3rd historical fantasy one that could have been continued if people wanted it, isn't so bad an output.

 

[Lumpy]

How about using forums to look for reasonable arguments regarding possible changes? It's not about the community voting on what should be changed, it's about them coming up with reasonable suggestions.

 

[denizsi]

And what were the biggest changes?

Historical fantasy setting based on Rome. Apparently it was a flop because people wanted fantasy fantasy.

Wow, I've thought that people were starving for an RPG set in ancient Rome. Perhaps he needed to work on his PR? Every time I visit a forum dedicated to ancient history, I see people bitching about fantasy and the lack of at least semi-historical RPGs set in antiquity.

And when you think about it, there are maybe a few RPGs set in antiquity, let alone even adventure or action games. I myself know of only Teudogar: Alliance with Rome and one other Diablo-like game where you can play as either Romans or Celts (no not Nethergate). When I recently searched for such, I could find maybe 50+ strategy games, less than 10 adventure games and a mere few action games only one of which (Shadow of Rome) wasn't a game about gladiators fighting in the arena but were an action/adventure crossbreed. It's a very underused setting outside strategy genres.

So it definitely sounds like shitty PR to me.

 

[Sceptic]

Wow, I've thought that people were starving for an RPG set in ancient Rome. Perhaps he needed to work on his PR? Every time I visit a forum dedicated to ancient history, I see people bitching about fantasy and the lack of at least semi-historical RPGs set in antiquity.

Yeah well people are like that. "We won't buy any more Spiderweb games because they're all the same setting." "OK fine here's an original setting." "What is this shit? a new setting? we won't buy it."

Nothing to do with PR. I don't remember how well he hyped Nethergate, but he advertised the remake very well and especially played up the "now with original setting!" aspect. People still didn't want it, even as they complained about Avernum and Geneforge sequels.

And while I've not played Nethergate, many of those who have praise it, some even consider it his best, so I'm assuming that isn't due to negative word of mouth.

 

[Fowyr]

I liked Nethergate, it was not historically or mythologically accurate, or different much from Exile mechanic, but was fine game.
Stay clear from the remake, it was severly avernumized and dumbed down. Two new dungeons are not compensating this.

 

[denizsi]

How so? I was about to install the remake demo.