Interview Actually, Some Developers Should Read Their Forums

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: J.E. Sawyer; Obsidian Entertainment

<p>Obsidian Entertainment's Josh Sawyer, the Codex' favorite game designer, <a href="http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2011/01/actually-some-developers-should-read.html" target="_blank">took his time to respond</a> to Jeff Vogel's <a href="http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html" target="_blank">latest insights</a> regarding developer forum posting habits.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>If You Can't Take the Heat, GTFO</strong><br /> Many creators make products to sell to people. &nbsp;It's our job. &nbsp;Well over a million people just paid around $50-$60 USD for something I helped make. &nbsp;If it doesn't work right or if they feel the product was misrepresented, it makes sense that they would be upset. &nbsp;The extent to which their reaction is justifiable or reasonable depends on what's going on, but sometimes, we actually did do something really bad. &nbsp;Sometimes, we can step back and realize that if we experienced the same problem on our own, we would kick our own (collective) asses.<br /> <br /> We have to accept that we make mistakes and we have to understand that it can really ruin someone's day. &nbsp;What we make is entertainment, but it's entertainment that can just as easily generate crushing lows as euphoric highs. &nbsp;A while ago, one of my co-workers received an e-mail from a gamer saying that she credits one of our games with <em>saving her life</em>. &nbsp;It shocked my co-worker. &nbsp;I've received similar e-mails in the past, going all the way back to to my early days at Black Isle. &nbsp;It shocks me every time it happens as well. &nbsp;I make video games, most of which I don't even think are anything to get excited about one way or another. &nbsp;Sometimes it's hard to accept how much what we make can impact people, positively and negatively, but this goes back to what I wrote above: reality is still out there. &nbsp;Sometimes we make people really happy. &nbsp;Sometimes we really upset them. &nbsp;Most people have no strong feelings about what we make. &nbsp;They look at it, poke at it, get bored, and move on. &nbsp;That's life. &nbsp;It's important to accept and understand these things.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This guy sounds too reasonable. It's suspicious.</p>

 

[Jason]

Word to the wise: anyone who claims that a video game saved their life is possibly very unstable and has detailed plans on how to harvest and wear your skin.

 

[Angthoron]

That makes sense. In fact, devs could put in a survey in the Uninstall tool where the gamers could take a moment to grade the software they've just uninstalled and send the feedback (if they wanted to).

That's what we do at the company I work at - after every course, we offer feedback to people. They can go apeshit angry in those feedbacks and tell that the course sucked donkey balls, and we're supposed to file these things and send them over to HQ so that the people developing the courses and course materials and books see how the clients take it. If it's shit, it has to be changed, or people will stop buying it. Very simple, very logical, I'm glad to see that at least some people seem to understand this in game dev.

 

[Andhaira]

But Jeff Vogel also makes a good point: The people on your forums do NOT represent the majority of gamers. Therefore, I suggest a compromise.

Read your forums, but don't take them too seriously.

 

[Ausir]

People in the forum might not be an entirely representative sample, but they're as representative as you're going to get.

 

[hanssolo]

...sometimes, we actually did do something really bad.

*the sound of a thousand slam dunks*

 

[mondblut]

Therefore, I suggest a compromise.

Read your forums, but don't take them too seriously.

Wrong. Hire somebody to read your forums for you and do weekly reports about reasonable stuff he saw in there, ignoring the rest.

 

[Melcar]

Listen to us!!!

 

[Volourn]

Anyone who claims forum poster geeks arer worth listening to have to be deemed crazy and stupid.

It's funny that the Codex doesn't see it that way since they feel new games suck.

NEWSFLASH: Old games that Codex likes were made before the interent was all popularized with spam so those games were basically made with limited customer feedback.

NEWSFLASH: New games are amde with lots of customer feedback yet the Codex hates it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yet the Codex is actually claiming that games would be better if devs took Mr. Alpha Fail's advice of actually listening to the fans?

There's a major disconnect here.


R00fles!

 

[Undead Phoenix]

Anyone who claims forum poster geeks arer worth listening to have to be deemed crazy and stupid.

It's funny that the Codex doesn't see it that way since they feel new games suck.

NEWSFLASH: Old games that Codex likes were made before the interent was all popularized with spam so those games were basically made with limited customer feedback.

NEWSFLASH: New games are amde with lots of customer feedback yet the Codex hates it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yet the Codex is actually claiming that games would be better if devs took Mr. Alpha Fail's advice of actually listening to the fans?

There's a major disconnect here.


R00fles!

Most fans are idiots who wouldn't know a good feature if it ripped their face off and laid its eggs in their stomach. That is where the problem with new games and customer feedback lies.

 

[Volourn]

Codex included.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

Did I say that they weren't?

Still, there's more people who know what they're talking about in the Codex than in any other forum I've visited.

 

[Phelot]

Lulz at video games saving lives

 

[SimpleComplexity]

 

[Volourn]

"Still, there's more people who know what they're talking about in the Codex than in any other forum I've visited."

No.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

"Still, there's more people who know what they're talking about in the Codex than in any other forum I've visited."

No.

Then give an example of a better forum

 

[commie]

Volly was referring to herself there with the 'no'.

 

[Volourn]

I didn't claim there were better forums. I just don't believe Codex itself is better. All forums are equal in this regard. Their members are also alle qual and truly belieivng they are the 'Chosen Ones'. LMFAO

 

[Undead Phoenix]

I didn't claim there were better forums. I just don't believe Codex itself is better. All forums are equal in this regard. Their members are also alle qual and truly belieivng they are the 'Chosen Ones'. LMFAO

Belief is a powerful force, don't underestimate it.

 

[SkepticsClaw]

nonsense

The poorness of new RPGs is related to consumer feedback by exactly what mechanism? Just because two things happen to coincide, it does not follow they are remotely related. For example, you typed your witless post; an instant later, a baby died of AIDS. Though your 'argument' was indeed mind-shatteringly poor, I wouldn't go so far as to call you a murderer.

If I were to have a thesis, I would hazard that modern computing's graphical power seduces developers into focusing on 'epic' storylines and powerful immersive cinematics over gameplay mechanics, whilst in the old days if your game was shit there was nothing to take the player's mind off it. I suspect less readily available feedback had little effect on anything.

Finally, 'The Codex' (whatever the fuck that is) does not like all old games and hate all new games. This is clearly just plain wrong.

 

[Drakron]

The poorness of new RPGs is related to consumer feedback by exactly what mechanism?

So they were removing some elements because they are "streamlining" for the heck of it?

Decisions are made because they do look at the market and things are added and removed because of market research, the days of "by gamers for gamers" is long gone.

Sawyer says for developers to stop trying to have their cake and eat it too, you make entertainment for mass consumption.

Also dont ignore there is consumer feedback, reviews and a lot that IS taken by consideration by market research teams, the conclusions they come up with on their reports are not pulled out of their asses.

The flaw in RPGs poorness is due to ultimate they are making games so generalist there is no longer much of specialization ... picking up a sports, a RPG and a RTS title will show they are all using the same basic gameplay mechanics and elements.

 

[Scream Phoenix]

 A while ago, one of my co-workers received an e-mail from a gamer saying that she credits one of our games with saving her life.  It shocked my co-worker.

What game could that be?! I must know.

 

[circ]

Anyone who claims forum poster geeks arer worth listening to have to be deemed crazy and stupid.

It's funny that the Codex doesn't see it that way since they feel new games suck.

NEWSFLASH: Old games that Codex likes were made before the interent was all popularized with spam so those games were basically made with limited customer feedback.

NEWSFLASH: New games are amde with lots of customer feedback yet the Codex hates it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yet the Codex is actually claiming that games would be better if devs took Mr. Alpha Fail's advice of actually listening to the fans?

There's a major disconnect here.


R00fles!

Clearly you know very little if anything at all about consumer involvement in video game making. You know nothing about the open playtesting when Atari started out. You know nothing about the early SSI and other studio newsletters and correspondences or BBS's. You know nothing about.. Oh why bother.

Bullshit r00fles!

 

[circ]

 A while ago, one of my co-workers received an e-mail from a gamer saying that she credits one of our games with saving her life.  It shocked my co-worker.

What game could that be?! I must know.

Rapelay.

 

[someone else]

I was going to walk into incoming traffic but bought BG2 before the 'day', played it and decide that romancing Aerie is worth living for.
True story bro.