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Interview Oblivion chit chat on GameSpot

Saint_Proverbius

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Behind you.
Tags: Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

There's <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/theelderscrollsivoblivion/preview_6111720.html">an interview</a> with <b>Todd Howard</b> on <A href="http://www.gamespot.com/">GameSpot</a> talking about <A href="Http://www.elderscrolls.com">TES4: Oblivion</a>. Here's a brief thing about the character system:
<br>
<blockquote><b>GameSpot: One of the most uniquely enjoyable (and some critics would suggest, unbalanced) aspects of Morrowind was its open-ended character creation and advancement system. Is a similar system planned for the new game?
<br>
<br>
Todd Howard:</b> Yes, and I would agree that parts are unbalanced and that's something we hope to do much better this time. We really like the skill-based system, as it rewards you for role-playing your character class. Now, the number of skills and what they do has been changed again, and you have a huge variety of choices you can make, but hopefully you'll see pretty quickly in the game that we have a better balance between combat, magic, and stealth skills. We've really overhauled each area so that people could play the whole game using one set of those skills. So combat gets much deeper with different attacks you learn as your skills increase. Magic is similar to our past games in how it's used, but now it's more effective to use as your only means of playing the game. And with stealth, we've totally changed how we handle this, thanks to Emil Pagliarulo who joined us from the Thief series of stealth games.</blockquote>
<br>
He makes a good point about it retaining the open endedness while enforcing behavour of your character build. The problem is whether or not it will work that way. Too many times I levelled up in <i>Morrowind</i> with fairly unpredictable attribute increases.
<br>
<br>
Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.shacknews.com">Shack News</A>
 
Self-Ejected

dojoteef

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
970
I hope consoles don't take over during my lifetime.

With comments like this from Todd Howard:

Lessons we learned? I think we learned that taking risks works. We took a lot of risks in changing our game systems to create Morrowind. Also bringing it to the Xbox was a big risk for us. Both of those paid off huge, particularly the Xbox, which is where the majority of our sales came from.

I hate how a lot of companies are starting to publish for "all platforms". Most of the major PC game releases I've seen recently have been either ported to or made inconjunction for consoles.

I've always hated the controls for consoles. Everything seems dumbed down, and the controllers are atrocious. They are akward and unwieldly. I just hope that the current trend of trying to release on multiple platforms doesn't end in the release being specifically for consoles. It seems most of the PC companies are realizing that the console market is where most of the money seems to be. Hence we get disasters such as DX:IW. Heck even Troika was talking about how they are probably going to be getting into the console business.

I don't mind companies that think first about the PC and then near release time about porting to a console. Those companies can usually retain a lot of the qualities PC gamers enjoy. I guess it all boils down to the cost of entry. Consoles are a LOT cheaper than trying to stay up to date with PC game requirements, so their will more than likely always be more console gamers than PC gamers.

Fuck, I hate being on the losing side of this shit. I know this isn't new, but I have to say the trend is growing. I frequent game developer sites such as gamasutra and quite a number of articles in recent years (the past two or three) are talking about how to be able to develop for multiple platforms at a time.
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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Oct 19, 2003
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The state of insanity.
There is one game that I had the pleasure of playing during my hiatus. While staying with a friend for awhile, he had The Suffering for the PC, which was a PS2 port. I was impressed. The game flat out rocked and they did a beautiful job of porting it over. I was extremely impressed and plan on purchasing that game once I have the money. Now if only more companies would take this approach, I wouldn't mind port overs so much.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
The Suffering? Doesn't ring any bells. What kinda game is that?
 

Otaku_Hanzo

Erudite
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Oct 19, 2003
Messages
3,463
Location
The state of insanity.
Vault Dweller said:
The Suffering? Doesn't ring any bells. What kinda game is that?

Third person shooter, and quite a well done one at that. You play a prisoner on death row at a maximum security prison. You've just arrived and suddenly the shit hits the fan and you find yourself in the middle of one of the best horror shooters since System Shock 2. And, might I add, you can go first person as well and it's seamless. The game rocks. Simple as that.

Don't take my word for it though. Check out this review. It pretty much sums it up.

Edit: This is one of those "play with the lights off and headphones on" games. ;)
 

Nagling

Educated
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
65
I didn’t really think it was unpredictable (the leveling up results). My main concern is the fact that you could basically buy higher levels. Found a trainer? Got gold? Next level achieved!! Role Playing :)
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
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Oct 21, 2004
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Yes
The system sucked because of trainers and spellmakers and how doing 1 action can level that stat. They should have multiple things for each one, and once you do a certain thing too much, you cant gain from that anymore.

You could just run into a corner and level running and get a weak weapon and hit a lonely guy in a house until he was low on HP, rest, repeat to raise melee skills.

Spellmakers, enchanters and alchemy really fucked stuff up since you had no limits. You could basically make yourself invicible if you got the gold.

It's worse than an action game.
 

Mendoza

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
277
LlamaGod said:
The system sucked because of trainers and spellmakers and how doing 1 action can level that stat. They should have multiple things for each one, and once you do a certain thing too much, you cant gain from that anymore.

You could just run into a corner and level running and get a weak weapon and hit a lonely guy in a house until he was low on HP, rest, repeat to raise melee skills.

True, you /could/ do that. But it's not like you have to, or even like it's that helpful. Anyone with any sense and willpower can play the game normally, and for anyone who isn't, it's a single player game so it has no effect on me.

Spellmakers, enchanters and alchemy really fucked stuff up since you had no limits. You could basically make yourself invicible if you got the gold.

It's worse than an action game.

This is true. Whilst there were limits on enchantments and spells, due to mana/enchantability limits, they were pretty damn high. Then again, you had to have a lot of gold for really powerful enchantments, and it's not like there was actually that much gold around.

There were enough legendary items lying around to make the game easy without enchanting extra ones anyway.
 

MrSmileyFaceDude

Bethesda Game Studios
Developer
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Sep 24, 2004
Messages
716
I thought training was way too easily obtainable as well. I didn't mind the skill books -- there weren't very many of them and it was always a nice surprise to find one. As far as repeatedly performing low-level tasks to level up, I don't really have as much of a problem with that -- if you really want to spend hours & hours casting cheap spells against a wall, that's your choice.

There were also some exploits, particularly with Constant Effect enchantments, and a lot more time could have been spent on the availability of spellmaking and enchanting.
 

Mendoza

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2004
Messages
277
MrSmileyFaceDude said:
I thought training was way too easily obtainable as well. I didn't mind the skill books -- there weren't very many of them and it was always a nice surprise to find one. As far as repeatedly performing low-level tasks to level up, I don't really have as much of a problem with that -- if you really want to spend hours & hours casting cheap spells against a wall, that's your choice.

Since it's a single player game, so you can't affect other players enjoyment, what Beth's (or your stance) on potential exploits? After all, it'll only be your own enjoyment your hurting if you use them.

As for training, maybe you could implement a system similar to prison, where the time taken training means you're not using your other skills, and causes them to degrade? And if you made training at higher levels cause a greater length of game time pass, then training some skills up to higher levels could really hurt your other skills. It would certainly put people off training their acrobatics up from 20 to 100 if there was more than a financial cost. Just a thought.

There were also some exploits, particularly with Constant Effect enchantments, and a lot more time could have been spent on the availability of spellmaking and enchanting.

Yeah, I made a constant effect 4 health restore amulet, which instantly made any fight stupidly easy, so I ditched it. Some of the constant effects should either have much higher enchantability costs (so you could have maybe a constant effect 1 health restore amulet, but nothing greater) or just not be allowable.
 

Limorkil

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
304
There's always going to be exploits. It's not worth putting tons of effort into preventing them. With skill based levelling like Daggerfall and Morrowind there's a whole range of things that could be considered exploits and you cannot totally eliminate them all.

Balance is a different matter. It's not as important in a single player game as it is in a MMORPG, but its still important. There's nothing worse than wanting to play a mage, for example, only to find the game way too hard, or too easy. One of my biggest complaints about both DF and MW is that they are way too easy for a warrior, and often much harder for other skill sets. There were a number of reasons for this, including:

1. As a warrior you only needed one skill, your weapon, whereas a mage had to master several schools of magic to be effective.

2. Warriors only needed strength plus some agility and endurance to be effective, whereas a mage needed most, if not all, of the attributes. Mages still needed strength to carry loot, endurance for hit points, speed for running away, in addition to intelligence and willpower.

3. Weapons did damage with no real cost, whereas a spell required magicka and took time to cast. Weapons rarely miss and almost no creatures had resistance to weapons. Magic had a percentage chance to fail, had to be aimed, and could often be resisted, reflected or absorbed.

4. Mages had no real protection if they did not wear armor. Magical shields and other defenses were very expensive to cast, and there was no particularly useful 'non-armor' option. All defense magic stacked with armor anyway, so there was no downside to using armor. Because the game was balanced to account for stacked armor and magical defenses, anyone with no armor died really easily.

5. Magical enchantments could be added to weapons, armor and clothing that were just as good as anything a mage could cast, often better. So a warrior could have weapons, armor and magic.

Daggerfall was more balanced than Morrowind in many respects, though it was still unbalanced. In Daggerfall, your spells cost much less magicka as you got better at casting them. This was a good idea, although it was taken too far because high level mages could cast very effective spells at minimal cost. In Morrowind, a spell always cost the same amount of magicka and powerful spells cost so much that the mage was constantly drinking restore magicka potions.

Another problem with Morrowind was that there were just two races that made good magic users, unless the player picked one of the magical birthsigns. Even with a magical birthsign, it was hard to have enough magicka without boosting intelligence through the roof as soon as possible. My current character (yes, I'm still playing MW) has 63 intelligence plus 48 from items, giving him 278 magicka, which sounds like a lot until you realize that most of his spells use 100 magicka. Daggerfall let you give a character of any race tons of magicka, plus the spells cost less anyway.

The Elder-Scrolls games (well, DF and MW) are rather hard to balance because they let a character have any combination of magic, combat and stealth skills without penalty. So any character can use a sword just as well as any other, with practice, and any character can wear armor, even a mage. A mage did not lose anything from wearing armor, while a warrior did not lose anything from using magic. So the game tried to be balanced for both a weak, unarmed, wood-elf mage in a robe and a huge claymore-wielding nord wearing full plate armor enchanted with a magical shield spell. It isn't really possible to balance such a system, without having pros for wearing no armor and cons for using armor and magic, pros for using pure magic and cons for using enchanted weapons, etc.

There are ways that the skill system can be more balanced. For example:

1. Make the number of skills required for combat be roughly the same regardless of character. In DF you had two attack skills for a warrior: critical strike and the weapon skill. That was more balanced than the one skill needed in MW. Another idea would be to introduce a reason to practice more than one type of weapon. After all, a mage needs to learn most of the schools of magic to be effective, so why does a warrior get away so easily with one weapon. Maybe there are critters than are vulnerable to blunt weapons, or maybe its easier to backstab with a short blade, or perhaps axes break shields easier, or possibly bladed weapons are harder to repair. In general, there should be no obvious best weapon type, like long blades were in both DF and MW.

2. Avoid letting similar effects stack. One of the biggest problems with MW was that you could fortify an attribute using many different items, spells and potions all at once. I could fortify my intelligence by wearing five fortify intelligence items, drinking a potion of fortify intelligence, and then casting a spell of fortify intelligence. The same applied with healing potions: I could drink 4 at once and regain 4x as much health in the same time frame. Many games only allow the largest single effect of a given type to count, which seems reasonable to me.

3. Limit the contribution to levelling of raising a single skill. If I do nothing but make potions all day, should I really end the day at level 10? What does a level mean, exactly? Levels were used to determine the difficulty of critters you met and the type of loot you found in DF and MW. Does it really make sense for someone who raised Alchemy to 90 to encounter the same stuff as someone who raised their axe skill to 90? I would rather see the rate of increase halve each time the skill goes up by one, until the character levels up. So getting the same skill to increase a second time take twice as long, and four times as long for the third increase. At level-up, the rate of increase goes back to normal. This disuades people from repetition of the same skill, and it encourages people to make use of more skills. For example: it might encourage a warrior to use more than one type of weapon. Another reason I like this idea is that it reduces the need for me to restrict the use of a skill. In MW at the moment I can only rely on stealth part of the time because if I sneak in every dungeon my stealth - a major skill - causes me to level up too quickly. I also hate having to make restore magick potions in small batches because I do not want to level up via alchemy.

4. Simplify the level-up process. Many people disliked the MW system because it penalized you for not micromanaging which skills you increased each level. I disliked it because it forced me to use skills that were "out of character" just to get necessary attribute increases. For example: my mage was forced to wear medium armor for a while just to get some endurance increases, and use a sword just to get strength increases. Also, it was hard to increase luck because there were no skills linked to it. I think the idea - link attribute increases to player activities - made a lot of sense but the implementation was too extreme because I could only increase attributes by 1 point per level if I did not increase the right skills. A more balanced and less annoying system would be something like this: Give every character 8 points to assign to attributes at level up; the number of points that you can assign to one attribute is capped based on how much you increased skills linked to that attribute, with a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 5. This way, a micromanager could get +5/+3 or +4/+4 whereas someone who did not pay much attention to the skills she increased could still get +2/+2/+2/+2, but more likely +3/+3/+2 (since she obviously used some skills).

5. Balance using a weapon with using attack magic with using a magical weapon. For example: enemies can parry/block weapons but not magic; spells travel fast and are hard to dodge; all weapons – not just the very heaviest ones – cause fatigue and fatigue actually means something; fatigue is harder to recover; some critters are resistant to weapons just as some are resistant to magic; failure to cast a spell costs less magicka; its quick and easy to switch between a few favorite spells (even with a console controller); cast on strike enchantments are much weaker than spells.

6. Balance using armor with using no armor with using magical defenses. For example: a dodge skill (like in DF) that adds to the characters ability to evade; armor penalizes dodge, swimming, climbing, running, spell casting %; meaningful fatigue penalties; a more linear relationship between armor level and damage (in MW, if the damage was much higher than the armor rating then the armor offered almost no difference in protection over no armor at all, making low level armors and shield spells pointless against higher level critters.)

7. If using skills is how you are meant increase them then stop having other ways to shortcut the process. In MW and DF I never used trainers because they just seem out of place to me. It made no sense that I could go to a trainer with a bunch of cash and 'buy' a level-up. DF handled it better than MW because you could only train once per day and the cost went up as your character went up in level, but it was easy to exploit by resting a lot and by raising all your non primary/major skills while remaining level 1. In fact, both games suffered by allowing the player to rest for any length of time, which made it easy to take advantage of anything that reset after X hours, like training in DF and merchants in MW. If you really must have trainers, then make the cost get exponentially higher each time a particular skill is trained, so the cost is based on the number of trainings, not the level of the skill or the character. Better still, make it so all trainers can only train up to 30 skill. Beyond 30 the skills can only increase through use.

Of course, there is another – easier – way to balance the skills: just add a lot of difficulty options to the game. MW had a difficulty slider, which was added after release. It was better than nothing, but a lot of people found it annoying because all it seemed to do was make enemies hit harder, which resulted in some fights being super hard while others (against mages, for example) remained easy. Player made mods for MW on the PC provided much better difficulty options, such as the ability to increase/decrease enemy hit points, magicka, strength, attack rating, shield blocking, speed. Unfortunately that is not available for console players and it took nearly 2 years for a player to figure out how to do it. Also with PC MW it was possible to easily control how fast skills increased and how level-ups worked, using the constructon set. That was nice, but once again it excludes console players and people who do not want to tinker with mods. It seems to me that it would be much easier to balance an RPG by adding these types of options to the game. It would be hard to create an unbalanced character if the game provided the ability to control various difficulty factors. The variety of options is crucial since different players want different things. For example: as a mage I would like fights to last longer but would prefer not to be killed in one hit, so I would increase enemy health and magicka, but not strength. I might even decrease enemy speed just to give me time to switch spells without having to pause the game.
 

Wysardry

Augur
Patron
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Messages
283
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Personally, I believe that Oblivion would be improved if the restrictions from Daggerfall were reinstated.

I haven't played Morrowind anywhere near as much as Daggerfall, so my information might not be 100% accurate, but the former seems much easier than the latter.

For example, in Daggerfall, there were more restrictions on how high skills could be developed. Only one (primary or major) skill could ever reach 100%. Other primary or major skills were capped at 95% with minor and misc skills being capped at 90%.

It might not seem like much, but it did prevent different classes maxing out at the same skill levels.

Also, two factors discouraged players from resting weights on the keyboard and wandering off for a few hours until a skill reached its max. Fatigue was one, and the other was that the character had to rest before a skill would increase by 1.

I also preferred Daggerfall's character generation process. Adding individual advantages and disadvantages made increasing skills harder or easier, and gave greater flexibility.

I must admit that I do prefer Morrowind's method of handling levelling up though. In Daggerfall the player could add points to strength, dexterity etc. regardless of whether they had performed any actions which used them. Having the increase based upon which skills have been used makes much more sense.
 

LlamaGod

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Oct 21, 2004
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Yes
Then again, you had to have a lot of gold for really powerful enchantments, and it's not like there was actually that much gold around.

Then comes in the Creeper and Talking Mudcrab "helpers".
 

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