Review Avadon: The Black Fortress Review

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Avadon: The Black Fortress; Spiderweb Software

<p><a href="http://www.geardiary.com/2011/03/14/mac-game-review-avadon-the-black-fortress/" target="_blank">Gear Diary has a review</a> of <strong>Avadon: The Black Fortress</strong> available, based on the recently released mac version of the game. It seems the game left a pretty positive impression:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>One thing I didn&rsquo;t mention is the length of Avadon. I would estimate it at about 40 hours based on my slow play-style. Jeff Vogel targeted a run through at 25-35 hours based on your own style of play, which is about right. For some, that is short &ndash; it is certainly shorter than Avernum 6. But Avadon is a tighter experience &ndash; as I said the trash mobs have been reduced, so the hours you spend are actually doing RPG-related things rather than battle after battle &hellip; or wave after wave within a battle!</p>
<p>Is Avadon: The Black Fortress perfect? Not at all &ndash; the story isn&rsquo;t the best Vogel has written, and some of the game elements could use more fleshing out. But it also has a great combat system, excellent balancing, great characters, and so in spite of those minor complaints this is my favorite Spiderweb game.</p>
<p>I have been very vocal about my disappointment in recent &lsquo;major&rsquo; RPG games and developers: Bioware has been moving towards story-based action games with little RPG content in Mass Effect series, and Dragon Age II also took a major step in that direction. Bethesda did a very similar thing with Oblivion compared to the much better RPG Morrowind &ndash; and I truly doubt that Skyrim will suddenly have robust RPG systems. Between Soldak, Basilisk and Spiderweb, RPG fans have three &lsquo;indie&rsquo; game studios willing to do the hard work of developing worthwhile and robust games that fill the void left behind. I applaud them in general &ndash; but with things like Din&rsquo;s Curse, Eschalon Book II and now Avadon &hellip; I can more specifically applaud their efforts.</p>
<p>Spiderweb took a chance this year &ndash; they left behind the established and well-loved worlds of Avernum and Geneforge and set out on a new adventure. Avadon: The Black Fortress is the start of a new franchise, and so far it is looking like we are in for a great series!</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Spotted at: <a href="http://www.rpgwatch.com/#16913">RPGWatch</a></p>

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I will give the demo a shot when it comes out. I am suspicious though.

 

[Micmu]

Waiting for computer version...

 

[Trash]

That's not a review. That's a fanboy gushing about his favourite toy.

Then again, Vogel has almost always delivered. Looking forward to the pc demo.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Disappointing in some ways, though I'll certainly get it. Still looks better than the mainstream, but severely disappointed by it taking the Avernum 'linear main quest with side quests' approach rather than the Geneforge branching factions+subfaction-driven approach. I've never rated Vogel as a 'great' writer - I like his efforts, but he writes like an indie developer, not a professional writer or even a game developer who has 'proven himself' as a writer ala MCA or Ziets. What he does brilliantly in Geneforge is setting and he also knows the STRUCTURE of writing well, and the geneforge games are great for originality and amazing branching, and they have terrific multi-layered themes, so that puts him ahead of many 'professional' game writers (better than any of Gaider's work, for example). But the actual execution is machine-like and mundane - think great setting, great themes, great branching but it isn't exactly the home of PS:T-style or MotB-style wonderful language.

Similarly disappointed about simiplification - more by loss of diplomacy path rather than the lockpicking part. Lockpicking was easily handled as part of a general 'tech' stat in Geneforge and it worked fine - was still a clear means of making a 'try to avoid combat by noticing patrols, using environment and sneaking through locked areas' build. But diplomacy was always an excellent trade-off in Geneforge. It was the single most useful skill in the game, giving access to great rewards, avoiding combats, opening up allies etc. BUT it was also the most expensive skill path, meaning that your character was going to SERIOUSLY suffer in open combat areas, making sneaking and avoiding combat in some parts a must, and sometimes completely shutting out the ability to kill off a boss, forcing you to work for him or around him because he was just flat out a better fighter than your silver-tongued ponce. It was exactly how a diplomacy/speech path should be done. Mainstream publishers constantly struggle with it - FO and many Black Isle / Obsidian games make it an 'easy mode' by giving huge rewards without significant sacrifice, while bethesda makes it useless. Making diplomacy powerful, but forcing you to seriously gimp your character in at least one important way (so you'll be shut out of some combats, or shut out of some trap zones) is the obvious, but rarely taken, option and it sucks that he has taken it out this time.

What it looks like is Vogel doing an attempt at a BG2 game. And for me that is certainly dandy enough to be worth a purchase. But I'd rather a new setting in the style of Geneforge or his alternative fantasy/history Romans v Celts game. I think the failure of that game - twice, one with revamped graphics - really hit Vogel's creativity hard. He's buckled down, bitched about people not wanting to try non-standard settings, and done a standard fantasy setting. I'm confident it will be good. But not as good as it could have been.

 

[felipepepe]

Really hate these games that think that being indie and more hardcore/old-school than Wasteland is a strong (only) selling point. The reviews usually are "Its da TRUE ARPEEGEE, U no like, U Bioware/Bethesda fanboy! *drolls*" and people only play to say they are saving the world from dumbed-down games (bro tip - its not working).

There are some nice hidden gems though, so its worth to at least play the demo. This one seem promising.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Still waiting for the Master Race version to come out.

 

[Virtual Vice]

Looks very interesting. I really enjoyed Avernum 6 and Geneforge 5, although I never finished any of his older titles excluding the original exile.

The only things that I find a bit disappointing are the game length, and the fact that he is also using gender specific classes like in the Geneforge titles, I mean his engine does not display equipment worn on player characters so how hard can it be to create another male/female character model for every available class.

Looking forward to playing it in any case.

 

[latexmonkeys]

Really hate these games that think that being indie and more hardcore/old-school than Wasteland is a strong (only) selling point.

Yeah, god knows we have enough hardcore, old school rpgs being developed. Really hate it when games cater to a niche.

 

[easychord]

Quote to use on ads for the PC version release. "More hardcore and old school than Wasteland" - Prestigious RPG Codex Magazine.

 

[Ulminati]

Looks interesting. I always meant to get into geneforge/avernum, but couldn't get past how atrociously crap they looked. And that's coming from a person who plays dwarf fortress. This time around though, the interface looks like it won't be painful to stare at for prolonged periods. Will definately get the demo.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Geneforge 5 looks pretty nice. It has vastly improved graphics, including nice avatars and loading screens.

 

[Ulminati]

Geneforge 5 looks pretty nice. It has vastly improved graphics, including nice avatars and loading screens.

Sort of. But if I'm going to play a series, I would rather start from the beginning. and look at geneforge 1 and avernum 1:

....Yeah. Not happening.

 

[Zed]

Sick-snot-green is such a pleasant color.

 

[Nex]

Looks interesting. I always meant to get into geneforge/avernum, but couldn't get past how atrociously crap they looked. And that's coming from a person who plays dwarf fortress. This time around though, the interface looks like it won't be painful to stare at for prolonged periods. Will definately get the demo.

I didn't like them at first much at all either, but once you get into the game you do not notice.

 

[SCO]

Graphic whores. They never change.

 

[kofeur]

Hey, the graphics are not that bad...
I recently re played Dusk of the Gods, and it seems to be on a similar level

 

[Konjad]

Graphic whores. They never change.

 

[Azael]

The first two Geneforge games are pretty damn amazing. The rest aren't bad either.

Avernum/Exile 3 is my favorite in that series.

 

[Virtual Vice]

Graphic whores. They never change.

And the codex has not forgotten.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Geneforge 5 looks pretty nice. It has vastly improved graphics, including nice avatars and loading screens.

Sort of. But if I'm going to play a series, I would rather start from the beginning.

Why? Each Geneforge and Avernum is a separate game. They just happen in one world. They aren't series in BG1-2-ToB sense.

 

[Raghar]

A I-III have continuity. G I-V have loose continuity.

Mem edit helps. You could quick play these first, then you can finish these last.

 

[Azrael the cat]

The amount of continuity in the Geneforge series is nice, but it is more a case of having cool little (sometimes big) details for those playing through, without costing anything to folks who just play one or two. You play a completely new character each time. Personally, if you wanted to get the full details of every little easter egg, you could do G2, then G4-5 and lose virtually nothing (skipping the crappier G3 and the ugly but awesomely original, yet certainly the most linear, G1).

The kind of progression you get is that things start off with a discovery by an expedition to an isolated island where they discover something that could really shake the world up (the Geneforge), and different folk have different ideas what to do. In G2 it's the Shapers (unquestioned world dominators, with no real resistance anywhere) sending a 'wtf-happened-investigate-and-clean-up' squad to check out this Geneforge thing. Some of the original mission may have gone a bit native, some regret their role and are born-again-loyalist, and a few slave races are waking up to the fact that this might create an opportunity for a genuine rebellion - basically multifaction game over who gets the geneforge (4 or 5 factions from memory, with a couple being hard/difficult to find). Even though it relates to the G1 events, it is supposed to be an entire generation or so later - there is no direct plot cross-over that isn't directly relayed to you without missing much. Personally, I played G2 before G1 and actually prefered that order, as it meant that I was finding things out at the same pace as the character (like not having a clue what the Geneforge was at the start).

G3 a bunch of boring stuff happens. Things move off the island to have larger ramifications.

G4 is where the game turns awesome in its branchings (G1-2 I give marks for serious setting originality, but G4 and G5 are objectively much much better in gameplay and C+C). The rebellion has started and it's in full swing. You suddenly get different starting locations and different classes available to you depending on your starting faction, though you can rat and re-rat between factions and subfactions.

G5 starts with the war still going on, but you start off with only 1 starting location and it uses the amnesiac PC trope. You don't know which of the endings from G4 was 'cannon', but from the start you get the impression that some of the palm-face-stupid things were chosen: shaping tech is leaking everywhere and to everyone with a political agenda, weapons races are getting out of hand, the alliances on both sides are splintering and now things are on the edge of apocalypse. Like with G4, you're now dealing with the whole continent, and it's a massive map. Depending on factional and strategic choices, you'll skip entire zones and end up in entirely different parts of the map. Quest hubs for one faction will be dungeons for others. And I can't say this strongly enough: G5 is freaken awesome. I'd put it somewhere in my 'best games ever' list.

All of which is explained to you in the 'tutorial'/intro section to each game. There are some nice touches - some pants-on-head-insane cult in an early game might end up morphing into a serious and major faction in later games, and from G2 on there are some characters who rise through the ranks from apprentices/infantry in G2 to leaders and generals by G5, many of them swapping sides along the way. You get slaves who started minor uprisings in G2 becoming legendary heroes by G5, but this isn't a bioware game - that kind of stuff is basically easter egg fluff. Ignore the reviewer who raved about Vogel's writing - he's an indie amateur, and anyway he simply isn't making those kind of NPC-relationship games. He writes well in terms of setting and themes, but this isn't a game where you're going to sob and reload because your favourite companion got killed - party members are strategic units, that's all. You get some interesting characters from time to time, but not in a crossing-across-games sense.

I seriously wouldn't recommend that you force yourself to play from G2 unless you love that kind of game - like I do. If you are happy with turn-based, decent, combat and a really original / tactical party and class system based on summoning, with a reasonable amount of factions and variety (different factions have different goals, but you mostly end up at the same locations regardless), and you don't mind the shitty graphics, then it's fine. But I'd hesitate to recommend G1, and don't force yourself to play G2 if you can't stand the graphics.

Don't play G3, full stop.

By G4 it's getting decent. But G5 works really really well as a complete standalone game. Frankly I'd just say forget the others and jump straight into G5. Work backwards if you wish - the games don't really spoil the previous ones' endings (b/c there are usually quite a few different outcomes for the individual character, as well as the 'state of the war' depending on your actions) and there usually isn't a 'canon' ending anyway - just a mixed progression of events.

 

[felipepepe]

Really hate these games that think that being indie and more hardcore/old-school than Wasteland is a strong (only) selling point.

Yeah, god knows we have enough hardcore, old school rpgs being developed. Really hate it when games cater to a niche.

If you like to think of yourself as a proud member of a niche that plays a game ONLY becase its hardcore (as I posted), congratulations. You are as deep as the guy playing a game cause "you press a button and something awesome happens", except he may be having fun.

 

[latexmonkeys]

If you like to think of yourself as a proud member of a niche that plays a game ONLY because its hardcore (as I posted), congratulations. You are as deep as the guy playing a game cause "you press a button and something awesome happens", except he may be having fun.

What's your definition of hardcore anyway? I don't consider the rpgs I like hardcore or niche, just good. You know, you might consider the possibility that some folks genuinely like complex, oldschool rpgs. Your incredulity stems from your inability to appreciate these kinds of games and that's your prerogative, but has no bearing on the games I and others choose to play.

 

[Disconnected]

But if I'm going to play a series, I would rather start from the beginning.

There's no reason you should. The amount of spoilage you'll be subjected to by playing them in reverse order, is no greater than what's already posted in this thread. It really does make more sense to start at the end and only work your way back to the beginning if you like the games enough to do so.

Also, without intending to add to the more/less-HC-than-thou silliness, if you consider yourself a RPG nut you owe it to yourself to at least play one of the Geneforge games.

Vogel's games aren't the most polished, pretty or accessible, but his approach to game design & genres is almost uniquely purist. The Geneforge games are about as close to tabletop RPG that video games have come, and the Avernums are some of the most thoroughbred crawlers around.

And yeah, I pretty much promise that if you like Fallout & the Gold Box games, you'll want to have Vogel's babies. So badly you'l end up claiming the painful fugliness of all involved, is "actually charming & stuffs, honest."