Review GameSpy Criticizes KOTOR2

[Sol Invictus]

Tags: Obsidian Entertainment; Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

GameSpy's resident cynic, <b>Christopher Buecheler</b> has taken to <a href=http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1>criticizing</a> <a href=http://www.obsidianent.com>Obsidian Entertainment's</a> Knights of the Old Republic II, <a href=http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html?fromint=1>commenting</a> that it was a game that felt that it was rushed half way through for a release in time for Christmas.<blockquote>
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I am afraid I must disagree with the esteemed Mr. Allen Rausch and his <a href=http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-2/585574p1.html>review</a> of KotOR II. While he did knock a star off for the bugs and glitches which plague the game (and which were indeed frustrating), he neglected to address one of the very real issues with the title: the storyline.
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Oh, sure, there's discussion of how the game contains a rich, full story with a plot as complex and interwoven as a tapestry. That's true. Right up until a very specific spot in the game, when all of that is tossed aside in favor of hurrying the game out for Christmas, and shoving the player through several obviously rushed endgame levels, without wrapping up half of the story threads (and that's not even getting into how damaging the influence system can be to the story).
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I'm not going to spoil the ending for you, nor even dwell too much further on what exactly the issue is, but believe me, it's there. I'm not talking about leaving the story open-ended in order to facilitate sequels. That's fine and I can thoroughly understand it. The problem is that they waste one of the creepiest bad guys in recent history, then promptly send your character off on a series of solo missions, and actually forget to even explain what's happening to the sidekicks you've spent so much time training and equipping. </blockquote>
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Could it be, that someone at GameSpy has the intelligence to say something of actual worth?
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Thanks for the news tip, <b>Aegeri</b>.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Hate to say it, but I think he might have a point in there. The only party members you get to see what happens to are Mira (light side) the remote droids. I would've liked to know what happened to the rest of the party stuck in the Ebon Hawk and why (and how) Mira and the remote droids got out in the first place. The ending is filled with holes and is somewhat unsatisfying. Then again: I guess it's to prepare for KOTOR3. Somewhat unfortunate, really, that the ending got so rushed just to leave the end open for sequels and cameos.

Rest of the game is however a solid rpg experience in my opinion. (With bugs.)

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

i agree with pretty much all of that article. the writer was spot on with much of what he said, and pretty much said the things everyone pretty much believed (ie. lucasarts part in this, obsidian not being established enough to stand up to them, a "rushed" ending, etc.).

great article.

 

[kumquatq3]

Good article, tho not exactly news at this point.

as for those "massive endgame sequences fully scripted (in the screenplay sense, not the programming sense) that give your sidekick characters much more robust endings", you should check it out on the obsidian forums.

They sounded quite good. Like in one scene, Atton is tortured and ultimately dies in the PCs arms. In another, the majority of your party is wiped out. In yet another, shunned love interests attack the others. Much more noir, Empire ending, kinda stuff.

Link (someone "cleans up" the post if you go ina page or two, making it much more readable : http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764


O, talk of K3 has already (re)started (If you recall, the LA team working on the K3 engine was fired awhile back, but that was months ago, so who knows)

Here is the March Game informers take:

Obsidian did pretty well taking over for BioWare in KOTOTRII: The Sith Lords, and it's got more up it's sleeve for the third installment. A source tells us that the game is going to reveal more about the HK series of droids, including where they are from and who makes them. Also planned is an exploration of the Outer Rim territories following in Revan's footsteps."

The HK factory thing was a cut section of K2, as was the planet it was apparently supposed to be on, btw

 

[MarFish]

This isn't surprising

Is this really surprising? Come on, why do you think Bioware skipped on this one. Probably Lucasarts presented their idea of get us the sequel xmas 2004 and got laughed out of the door on this one.

 

[Volourn]

"Is this really surprising? Come on, why do you think Bioware skipped on this one. Probably Lucasarts presented their idea of get us the sequel xmas 2004 and got laughed out of the door on this one."

No. The reason is actually clear as BIO has stated it flatly - they want to make their own IPs. No big mystery, no shadow dealings, no comspiracy. If BIO had done the game, they would have made LA bow down to them. Unlike silly little weak companies like Troika and Obsidian they don't bark when ordered - at least not without a fight. If they have a recourse; they'll take it. Just ask Interplay.

As for the cut parts; as I said elsewhere. Big frggin' deal. All games suffer cuts. KOTOR1 suffered cuts including an entire planet. Stop judging games on cut stuff or what it could have been and judge it on what it is.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

While there is some good writing there, it really depends on how they implimented it in the game. If those endings were an excuse to force the player to play one of the followers in another session of solo combat, I'm happy they didn't make it in.

I really hated the part of the game where I had to divide up two parties for a split mission. I was expecting to have to do the one with my character and the other was just a story event. So, I put all blastery people in the party that was going on a raid. Well, it turned out I had to actually do the raid myself - with blaster people - against a bunch of sith and dark jedi with light sabers. Not fun.

I also didn't like being forced to play Atton solo versus a few swordy bad guys. Nor did I like being a defenseless droid in the middle of a hostile maze filled with big, nasty critters.

I have a character that's mine. Don't force me to play others, please.

 

[FireWolf]

So judge it as a half-finished title. "poor ending" "rushed" "unfinished" seem to be words that crop up all too frequently in reviews. I will quite happily judge a game if, to my mind, it is missing a significant portion that seems integral to the story. You can't say that it is wrong to judge a product on missing portions. If a cookie has a chunk of albacore at one side, or a cheese sandwich is missing the cheese, do you judge the sandwich on the bread or that the cookie started good but soured? I think it is fair criticism to state that you feel cheated or that the ending could have been better, or parts that were obviously missing were noticable by their absence. It is fair; it is just.

Unlike silly little weak companies like Troika and Obsidian they don't bark when ordered

Congratulations to Bioware for having successful titles, years of production, recognizable names and an established lineage. Starting developers do not have the luxury to be able to turn down huge profit-spinners. That both of these developers' games have been lauded for their opening sections speaks volumes for their creative talent, that they seemed rushed and ill-thought in their final stages alludes to publishers' hurry to meet "crunch" sales periods.


The reason is actually clear as BIO has stated it flatly - they want to make their own IPs.

Are you trying to say that Bioware would turn down a hugely popular and profitable franchise just because they wanted to make their own titles? I think that's just naive. Bioware might state that they want to make their own IP, but the reasons for that are most likely due to their desire to be free from the restrictions put on them by companies like Lucasarts or wizards of the coast. Having their own IP gives them the freedom to create what they want and spend as long as they want making it, without having to meet the expectations, deadlines or restrictions of 3rd parties.

Bioware want to make their own universes, they also want to be free from the leash.

 

[Reklar]

I find it an amusing thought that BioWare "would have made LA bow down to them" considering LucasArts is backed by a hell of a lot more than BioWare. If BioWare had agreed to develop KotOR II then they would have been just as likely to be rushed by LucasArts as any other developer and just as likely to be forced to buckle under to meet the demand because of whatever contract they signed. However, it is probably more likely that BioWare would be listened to if they provided good reason to delay the release than a less influential developer. That being said though, I agree with the notion that BioWare wanted to get out from under the heel of restrictions and call their own shots with their own IPs because any developer who has come as far as BioWare is smart to go that rout.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Surlent]

I also didn't like being forced to play Atton solo versus a few swordy bad guys. Nor did I like being a defenseless droid in the middle of a hostile maze filled with big, nasty critters.

I have a character that's mine. Don't force me to play others, please.

Damn straight to the point. If I want to play stealth way, let me do that.

With premade character sidekicks they put you in a position where you are fixed to play a certain way. Now ofcourse you could level up the sidekicks like you wanted but they'd still have the personality and other unchangable attributes like nojedi class.

It's the way of console rpgs to put you in other character's shoes than your own made. That only ends up making the main pc a mute and empty shell of a character. Chronotrigger as prime example (Chrono dies in a certain point of the game and you get to play with NPCs and the main character has only one line in the game and even that's in one of the many secret endings)

 

[Volourn]

"Congratulations to Bioware for having successful titles, years of production, recognizable names and an established lineage. Starting developers do not have the luxury to be able to turn down huge profit-spinners. That both of these developers' games have been lauded for their opening sections speaks volumes for their creative talent, that they seemed rushed and ill-thought in their final stages alludes to publishers' hurry to meet "crunch" sales periods."

Devloeprs? You talking about Troika too, right? You do realzie that Troika has beena round for 7 years. And, Obsidian while new isn't some New Kid On The Block tm. They have history. When BIO started in the industry they were just a couple of silly doctors who liked games. R00fles!


"Are you trying to say that Bioware would turn down a hugely popular and profitable franchise just because they wanted to make their own titles? I think that's just naive. Bioware might state that they want to make their own IP, but the reasons for that are most likely due to their desire to be free from the restrictions put on them by companies like Lucasarts or wizards of the coast. Having their own IP gives them the freedom to create what they want and spend as long as they want making it, without having to meet the expectations, deadlines or restrictions of 3rd parties."

You are being naive.You seem willing to see the obvious - BIo wants to move, and do their own IPs. That come swith more freedom without question.Sure, they'd have 'restrictions' under LA; but I seriosuly doubt they'd be as restricted as others are simply because they are BIO.


"I find it an amusing thought that BioWare "would have made LA bow down to them" considering LucasArts is backed by a hell of a lot more than BioWare."

It has really nothing to do with power. Obviously, LA is bigger and more "powerful" than BIO; but I seriosuly doubt they'd have forced BIo to make the game in a year or so. As for contracts; I seriously doubt BIO would have signed a contract that handicapped so much. Afterall, Interplay tried to bully BIo too and we all know where Interplay went and what BIo is doing. BIo literally grabbed the NWN license from Interplay and handed it to Atari on a silver platter. Would LA had tried to rush BIO? Perhaps; but I doubt BIo would have limped along with it.


As for KOTOR2; it's been made clear that BIo had first option on it. They passed on it for one specific reason - they arne't interested in working on others' Ip for the moment. Period. This is why they probably won't be working on BG3 either.


As for SP's point. i hate that about KOTOR2. Wayyyy toooo oftennn are you forced to play other characters. They took a nice little cool aspect of KOTOR1 and beat it like a dea dhorse..

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

I really hated the part of the game where I had to divide up two parties for a split mission. I was expecting to have to do the one with my character and the other was just a story event. So, I put all blastery people in the party that was going on a raid. Well, it turned out I had to actually do the raid myself - with blaster people - against a bunch of sith and dark jedi with light sabers. Not fun.

from a rpg standpoint i can relate to what youre saying. but from a "star wars" point of view, i really liked the separating of party members into two "squads" for missions. it gave it the movie feel, like when luke would be on dagobah and han/leia would be on cloud city, or how luke fought vader on the death star while han/leia were on endor.

of the new features, that was one of the ones i really enjoyed. *shrugs*

 

[Volourn]

KOTOR2 is not amovie. It's a game. It's a role-playing game where you supposed to role-play the Not Last Non Jedi Jedi.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

KOTOR2 is not amovie. It's a game. It's a role-playing game where you supposed to role-play the Not Last Non Jedi Jedi.

if youre going to repeatedly whine about that one thing about the game all the time, at least get it right.

it is the last KNOWN jedi. i have no clue what a non jedi is.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

KOTOR2 is not amovie. It's a game. It's a role-playing game where you supposed to role-play the Not Last Non Jedi Jedi.

if youre going to repeatedly whine about that one thing about the game all the time, at least get it right.

it is the last KNOWN jedi. i have no clue what a non jedi is.

Someone who is not a jedi, you fucktard

 

[Volourn]

Hahahahaha.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

KOTOR2 is not amovie. It's a game. It's a role-playing game where you supposed to role-play the Not Last Non Jedi Jedi.

if youre going to repeatedly whine about that one thing about the game all the time, at least get it right.

it is the last KNOWN jedi. i have no clue what a non jedi is.

Someone who is not a jedi, you fucktard

wow thanks.

i was talking about volourn saying that obsidian sold the game as you being "the last non jedi" when in fact that was NOT what they sold it as. the exact line was the last KNOWN jedi.

thanks for your contribution though. :wink:

 

[Gromnir]

major complaint of folks who played kotor1:

i had no reason to use most of the joinable npcs bioware made available to me. they joined my party and then i left them on the ebon hawk.

obsidian came up with a solution... sorta. they made so that more members would have to be utilized. unfortunately, this aspect caught many off guard. we were not particularly in favor of this aspect of the game when we had to have atton face off with the twin suns harlots... and we had built atton as a blaster wielding character. took lots of mando melee shields and healing packs to survive that encounter.

we thinks that the idea were good. the total amount of time in game where your pc is not leading or part of the party is small... is not like you got stuck playing t-3 for even 1/10th of the game. you were forced to approach a small number of quests different than you would normally do so... which we think is a good thing. unfortunately, the way some of those non-pc quests were handled was... suspect.


also, we do not think that the end of the game (save for the epilogues,) were really rushed. chris a notes that he were going for an Empire feel. he failed miserably, but that is what he were trying to do. 'course, 'stead of leaving the player wondering, "what will happen next," we were left asking, "what the hell just happened?" is very different things. was not rushed so much as simply fumbled.

now, as to the way in which the epilogues were handled... that felt rushed. have vader do 10 minutes of exposition at the end of Empire... just after he lops off lukes hand he explains how hoth will be transformed into a winter resort planet with profits used to maintain a nature preserve for the planet's rare indigenous species, and that cloud city would greatly benefit... its mining operation would expand ten-fold once the city were fully integrated into the imperial infrastructure. would that have seemed awkward?

am not sure how the epilogues was originally designed or planned, but we hope that the UBG (ultimate bad guy) exposition were simply a result of too little time and resources... 'cause it seemed like a really crappy way to do such a thing.

HA! Good Fun!