Review KOTOR2 reviewed at RPGVault

[Spazmo]

Tags: Obsidian Entertainment; Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords

<A HREF="http://rpgvault.ign.com" target="_blank">RPG Vault</A> have got their very own <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/593/593380p1.html>review</a> of Obsidian's first release, Knights of the Old Republic II. The review is positive and echoes other reviews for this popular Star Wars RPG.<blockquote>The same can be said of all the other potential party members named above, although arguably to a lesser extent. At least in part, this is due to the simple reason that aside from controlling T3-M4 in the prologue, Kreia is the first one to become available. You hook up with Atton quite soon thereafter, and then T3-M4. Their respective skill sets are fairly similar. Only two can accompany you at a time, so you'll probably pick one of them or switch them in and out for each other. Meanwhile, the crone will be your constant companion. By the time you meet Bao-Dur, you'll have played for about 10 hours, perhaps a bit more. If you decide to bring him along, he's least likely to take Kreia's place because you'll have by far the most time invested in her. This pattern repeats itself through the first half of the game since that's roughly how long it takes to encounter the rest.</blockquote>Well, that's kind of wrong for two reasons. First off, the game automatically levels up NPCs so they'll match the PCs level. Second, Kreia is a vicious queen bitch who is so unpleasant I never used her except for when the damn game forced me to.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Well, it puts NPCs at one or two levels below where you are when you first meet them. It will only automatically level them up though if you turn that option on. I never did. I love having control over them, especially since it forces you to use alot of them in certain areas. Helps to have them the way you want them. And, yeah, I hated Kreia.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's not wrong for any reason. If you turn on auto-levels, then you're pretty much screwed with what the game gives you, but otherwise it allows you to use all of your NPCs at any time so those characters which you don't use don't lag behind. How awful would that be?

 

[Spazmo]

Auto level or no, it still gives the party members the levels. Then you can choose to level them up automatically or not.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Which is fine. Otherwise all those characters you seldom use would be lagging behind and THEN your party would be fucked.

 

[Sharpice]

I understand that some players might want to let their favorite NPCs stand out from the rest of the party membetr, and may not like the everyone-levels-up-no-metter-used-or-not system, it can still be acomplished by giving your favorite better equipment or attention in min-maxing. Althoughthe system is a bit unrealistic it's still not a bad thing. An advise to fellow gamer: Don't be to stubbon, the most important thing to gaming is to have fun, and trust me, you don't want a game to be too realistic.

 

[PennyAnte]

This reviewer might have felt compelled to keep Kreia around for a long time because she is the only other force user available for the party in the early game. The player doesn't get another until assuming full control of the ship, landing on another planet and starting the process of getting Visas and turning other characters into jedi.

 

[Spazmo]

Doesn't matter, PennyAnte. Kreia is a sufficiently enormous bitch and KOTOR2 is easy enough that you don't need uber characters to get by anyways.

 

[PennyAnte]

While I can see your point, Spazmo, I think the statement that Kreia is such an awful character no player would want to use her is a matter of opinion and taste. For example, one could argue that she is certainly one of the most complex and least one-dimensional characters to come along in any Star Wars medium, whether books, films or games.

Throughout the game, she provides a completely novel look at the concept of the force. This includes the notion of seemingly good acts leading to greater evils. In Star Wars novels, Grand Admiral Thrawn was a military genius and very interesting, but also a rather one-dimensional cardboard cutout of a character. Kreia isn’t.

The game overall is the first Star Wars material (that I know of) to take a good, solid look at the notion of jedi "arrogance," too, and analyze self-defeating principles in a do-gooder's code of ethics. It takes the “truth from a certain point of view” concept to a whole new level.

KOTOR 2 deserves praise for that, and Kreia is part of the approach.

 

[Volourn]

"one of the most complex and least one-dimensional characters"

Are youf riggin' nuts? While Kreia is fine; she is one of the most one dimensional and least complex characetrs I've seen.

Krea: I hate everything. The End.

 

[PennyAnte]

Maybe you haven't gone through all of her dialogue? She fell from the light side and the dark side. She's the strongest voice in the game for the existence of moral shades of gray. She's behind-the-scenes manipulative. She cleverly covers up her tracks. There's a lot of subtlety there. She's intricate rather than archetypical. I think that’s a plus.

 

[Volourn]

No.

I saw her dialogue.

She was one dimensional.

Kreia: I hate everything. The end.

 

[PennyAnte]

She is more richly drawn than most characters in Star Wars branded entertainment.

You are oversimplifying by reducing her to "I hate everything. The end."

That's like reducing HK to "I shoot everything. The end."

Cynicism leads to the Dark Side. :D

 

[space captain]

One dimensional, you say? Could you give an example?

Oh wait - you did.

 

[Greatatlantic]

I must say, the Baron of Santa Monica was the most two dimensional character I have ever come across in a title.

I think its OK to have "one dimensional" characters in a game, it keeps things cohesive. Just make that one dimension more interesting than "troubled past, must trust again" or "born to be uber evil and greedy (aka all KotOR villains)".

 

[Volourn]

"You are oversimplifying by reducing her to "I hate everything. The end."

That's like reducing HK to "I shoot everything. The end."

Um.. THAT is HK. But, with him, that's the point.

 

[PennyAnte]

Except that there’s a lot more to him, just like there’s a lot more to Kreia. He’s witty, sarcastic, the first of his kind (and nonplussed by his sequels), etc.

Yes, on some level you can just summarize him as “I shoot everything, the end,” just like you can summarize Kreia as “I hate everything, the end.” But the summary isn’t the whole. Just because a summary exists does not mean the character is one dimensional (though arguably HK is more one dimensional than Kreia).

Look at it this way. The character Hamlet is much more than “I hate my uncle, the end.”

And no, I’m NOT saying KOTOR 2 is Shakespeare.

 

[Volourn]

You compared HK and Kreia to Hamlet. You lose. Game over.

 

[PennyAnte]

No, I compared your leaps of logic to nonsense. BOOYA! The end.

 

[Pegultagol]

Kreia seems a bit like Ravel from Planescape.
I found her rather intriguing, but a bit of a bother nontheless. She had the most amount of dialogue and the depth of interaction is what Kreia meant to me, not particularly the character herself. I wish the other NPCs held as much exposition as committed to Kreia.





[spoilers]
Too bad that she isn't the type that can be saved, and I wonder how she could've died despite the bond that the she shared with the pc, and if turning to the dark side means that the bond is broken, could fall from neutrality in one fell swoop. I guess refusing to be saved holds as much familiarity to archetype as redemption, and Kreia at least seemed constant in that mould of 'I hate everything.'
[/spoilers]

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

My take is the bond was a lie. Another manipulative scheme on her part. After all, only that one instance of pain occurs. The rest is her talking to you telepathically. Big woop. Powerful Jedi can do that without a bond and over great lengths if powerful enough.

I liked Kreia as a character, but I didn't like her as a personality to have along.

Edit: A good sign that the bond was a lie was at the end when she went to Malachor V and told someone else to tell you rather than contact you herself through "the bond". She was too far away and not powerful enough to keep up the ruse. I could be wrong and it could all be chalked up to rushed ending stuff, but it makes sense.

 

[PennyAnte]

At least one of the Jedi masters (Vrook on Dantooine I think) also basically labels the idea of a lethal bond ridiculous. He essentially dismisses it as impossible.

 

[Killzig]

Maybe you haven't gone through all of her dialogue? She fell from the light side and the dark side. She's the strongest voice in the game for the existence of moral shades of gray. She's behind-the-scenes manipulative. She cleverly covers up her tracks. There's a lot of subtlety there. She's intricate rather than archetypical. I think that’s a plus.

If you thought she was behind the scenes manipulative then you're probably not the most observant. I think most people saw the UBER TWIST OMG YOU MEAN SHE STILL A BADDIE thing coming from a mile away. If she was meant to be 'grey' they sure as hell forgot to add the 'white' bits in. She was a boring character. To me she seemed like an aged and bitter version of Bastilla.

 

[PennyAnte]

Her being a character who is manipulative is completely different from whether or not the player sees her plot twists coming.

She doles out advice like:
Be prepared to sacrifice party members to achieve strategic goals.
Keep characters like the Handmaiden around because they might be used as weapons against their masters, or at least provide intelligence about their masters.

She takes actions like:
Admitting memory-wiping former Jedi to cover her tracks. She also has a long dialogue with Disciple where she taunts him with revealing her plans, then wiping them from his memory.
Holding Atton’s dark secret over his head to bind him more strongly to the player’s character.
Holding another life debt over Hanharr to secure his servitude.

These are just some examples. She's a manipulative, Machiavellian character. That is not really debateable.

She also makes observations which are more sophisticated than standard Star Wars fare:
Evil actions can lead to good results and vice versa. For example, helping others too much can lead them to become lazy and dependent. Thus unrestrained charity leads to sloth. Also, she notes that while war and other forms of strife can be tragic, they often cause individuals, and whole cultures, to rise to new levels of greatness.

This continues Bioware’s stab at making Star Wars less simplistic. Before these games (unless there are books I don’t know about, and there may be), the light and dark side of the force were simply just synonyms for general, archetypical good and evil. Bioware was the first to raise the possibility that the Sith Code had intellectual qualities to recommend it, and therefore show how the dark side might actually be seductive instead of merely psychopathic.

For example, Bio incorporated a theme of rigorous self-improvement and self-reliance into the code. It was about passion, strength, and breaking personal chains. Evil was almost an afterthought. This kind of intellectual sophistication is more than what George Lucas brought to the table in the films and is clearly one reason why the games have been so successful. They are artistically and intellectually superior to a great deal of Star Wars branded drek out there.

Obsidian has very competently continued to carry this torch with their own compelling game. Kreia is one key character through whom the game makers articulate their picture of the force and its role in human affairs. She is both a manipulative and an uncommonly sophisticated character (for Star Wars), and the game also is much better than the industry’s average drivel.

I’m not arguing that anybody has to like Kreia. But it’s still possible to recognize her contribution to the game in general, and to storytelling in video games as an artistic medium, and separate that from not appreciating her role in an in-game party.

The game does feature several long sections of dialogue in general, and not only with Kreia. I can see how some more action-focused gamers wouldn’t enjoy that in general, Kreia aside. Even for me, I find myself wishing I could skip purely narrative dialogues on subsequent run-throughs, just like I skip cutscenes.

 

[Killzig]

If I were focused on action there's no way I'd be interested in KOTOR. The combat system is barely a step above Dungeon Siege's. No, I too like stories in my RPGs... I just don't think cookie cutter cliched character design is interesting. Old, fallen and bitter... sounds like that character archetype is as old as the bible. It just isn't interesting to me.