Review KOTOR2 reviewed at RPGVault

[Grifman]

The force bond isn't a lie, because one of the game mechanics is that any force power Kreia uses on herself also impacts the Exile. She uses force speed, the Exile gets force speed, she uses force armor, the Exile gets force armor, etc.

 

[PennyAnte]

No, it's lethality is a lie. The idea that the bond could kill if either person dies is one of several lies Kreia tells the player's character to make the character suspicious of Jedi.

It's an example of one of her manipulations. Other sources in the game say a force bond could never kill.

Kreia also suggests that the Jedi council cut the player character off from the force. This also is revealed to be a lie during the game.

 

[Killzig]

and of course these lies are all set up by the good ole "HALLO THAR PLAYER YOUR CHARACTER HAS FORGOTTEN HIS RECENT HISTORY AND NOW YOUR ARE ON SOME ABANDONED PRISON/SPACE PORT(OR SHIP) device. That's quality!

 

[Volourn]

'The idea that the bond could kill if either person dies is one of several lies Kreia tells the player's character to make the character suspicious of Jedi."

Huh? WTF? Do you even read? Kreia, quite clearly, states in the early game that she isn't sure if the Force Bond will actually kill the other if one dies. She says it is a POSSIBILITY. I wouldn't exactly call that a lie.

 

[PennyAnte]

Well, OK, you've got me there. She suggests it, or says she doesn't know. My mistake. But it's still one of her manipulations, I think.

And she does say the Jedi cut the character off.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, she lied about that. Of course, that's just evidence of our character having non amnesia amnesia... Either that, or the PC is stupid.

 

[Grifman]

Yeah, she lied about that. Of course, that's just evidence of our character having non amnesia amnesia... Either that, or the PC is stupid.

No, not really. It is quit clear that our character believes that his loss of the force is tied to his dismissal by the Council. Because he was thrown out of the order, and other fallen Jedi have been severed from the force by councilar action, he assumes that they did it. So it is not tied to his amnesia or lack of it at all. Now maybe he was dumb to assume it was the council that did it without asking but, then again, a Jedi had never voluntarily been able to sever himself from the force before, so perhaps it wasn't a foolish assumption on that point either.

 

[Volourn]

My chaarcter. I should be able to chose what my character believes. I *knew* it wasn't the council.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Okay, the bonuses you get from the link are easily explainable in the Star Wars D20 RPG with one little perk Kreia could have had. I still say she could easily have been lying about the link and that makes much more sense than the link existing in the first place. They never even bother to explain how the link came to be. Therefore, I feel it's all a ruse on Kreia's part. Now, maybe if they fix up the endings we'll be able to see for sure. Until then, I'm going with my beliefs, wrong or not.

 

[Volourn]

Your believes are wrong. The game explains clearly that there was a link.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

No, it just tells you what special abilities you get from the "link", something I already explained how could be without there actually being a link. They have to keep up the ruse and still let you know the benefits, after all. Show me in the game where it says "TEH LINK EXISTZORZ AND TIHS SI HOW EET HAPPEEND" and I'll admit defeat. Until then, there is NO proof the link is real. None.

 

[Volourn]

Keep spinning the nonsense. You are embarassing yourself. The 'proof' of the link's existence is all over.

 

[Grifman]

My chaarcter. I should be able to chose what my character believes. I *knew* it wasn't the council.

How did you know it wasn't the council until they told you? I don't remember that being revealed anywhere until they told you, but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Jed]

My chaarcter. I should be able to chose what my character believes. I *knew* it wasn't the council.

Like in the NWN OC how my high-wisdom Ranger PC knew that Desther was up to evil, but COULDN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT?

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Keep spinning the nonsense. You are embarassing yourself. The 'proof' of the link's existence is all over.

Show me this proof? Or are you gonna pull the "Wrong. Next. R00fles!" crap again?

NOWHERE does it prove the link actually exists. And until you prove me wrong, ACTUALLY prove me wrong, then you're embarassing yourself. I'm not saying I'm right about this. It's my belief and part of my role-play experience. Anyone got a problem with it, boo fucking hoo. But now you're telling me proof exists that the link is REAL? Tell me where. Show me this proof. Point me in the direction that will prove me wrong in my beliefs.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

Show me this proof? Or are you gonna pull the "Wrong. Next. R00fles!" crap again?

NOWHERE does it prove the link actually exists. And until you prove me wrong, ACTUALLY prove me wrong, then you're embarassing yourself. I'm not saying I'm right about this. It's my belief and part of my role-play experience. Anyone got a problem with it, boo fucking hoo. But now you're telling me proof exists that the link is REAL? Tell me where. Show me this proof. Point me in the direction that will prove me wrong in my beliefs.

he doesnt have proof. his is speculation just as much as yours is. its never proven that the link exists just as its never proven it does not exist.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

he doesnt have proof. his is speculation just as much as yours is. its never proven that the link exists just as its never proven it does not exist.

Exactly. As I said before, I'm not saying I'm right. I am saying however, that per the SW d20 rules, my theory makes much more sense. A bond such as that is covered nowhere in the books for the RPG. There are things that can be used against someone to make it look like a bond such as that exists, however. That's where my speculations are stemming from. Well, those and the fact that the bond is pretty damn fishy right from the start. I had Kreia die on me a couple of times while in my party and not once did I even lose health. Lethal my ass. :D

 

[AlanC9]

I had Kreia die on me a couple of times while in my party and not once did I even lose health. Lethal my ass. :D

No, she was knocked unconscious. Not the same thing. You do know the difference, right? Though if you're not KO'd when Kreia is, it makes it less likely that you'd die when she does.

As for your overall argument, it's obviously nonsense. But I'll let Volourn give you the beatdown you're asking for. I'm off to bed.

 

[PennyAnte]

Yeah, she lied about that. Of course, that's just evidence of our character having non amnesia amnesia... Either that, or the PC is stupid.

I think Volourn should be conceded this point. It's a weakness in the narrative (though not one that overrides the other points about Kreia).

It is quit clear that our character believes that his loss of the force is tied to his dismissal by the Council. Because he was thrown out of the order, and other fallen Jedi have been severed from the force by councilar action, he assumes that they did it. So it is not tied to his amnesia or lack of it at all.

I think there was some plot text suggesting the triggering of the Mass Shadow weapon of mass destruction at Malachor sent a shockwave-level echo through the force. It was caused by untold numbers of deaths at once, and the echo itself was enough to kill many jedi who didn't die directly from the weapon. The player's character, I believe, was to have instinctively cut him/herself off from the force to avoid a similar fate.

This, as Volurn suggests, is at odds with dialogue referenced above. It's a weakness. The only way to reconcile it is player character stupidity or non-amnesia amnesia. Also, I would think, losing touch with the force is such a dramatic and life-altering event one doesn't soon forget how it happened (barring amnesia).

I think the devs maybe began with some story ideas, tweaked them during product development and didn't always catch everything that needed to be edited to conform. We already know there were several cuts, including the droid planet and HK factory.

What's up, for example, with HK's perk that lets him use "droid speak?" It's a feat with a graphic of a talk bubble filled with zeros and ones.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

As for your overall argument, it's obviously nonsense.

How so? I love it when people go "YOU'RE WRONG!" and don't back it up. Back it up. Tell me how it's nonsense. I played the PnP game for a few years. I played KOTOR 2 through three times now doing things differently everytime. Still I see nothing to prove the bond truly exists.

Oh, and if your idea of a "beatdown" is the same as Volourn's then you're just as much a moron as he is. "Wrong. Next. R00fles!" Yup. That's a hell of a beatdown. It'll teach me.

And, yes, I know that she was "unconscious" so there's no need to get snide about it. In combat sense, she died. Call it what you will, she was dead to me for the duration of the fight. Yet it affected me in no way. Why?

 

[Volourn]

No, she didn't die. She was unconcious. Your characters cannot die in KOTOR unless the entire party dies. Pretending otherwise is nonsense. Don't change the game rules to fit your theory. That's plain silly.

As for proof, if I share you would just say it was a lame trick; or point to some stupid secret rare SW book that is totally irreleavnt.

Here are some facts given IN GAME:

1. Kreia can contact you from far distances.

2. If one of you uses a self effecting force power; it effects the other. I cna see Kreia being able to fake it when she uses her force powers; but not when you use yours.

3. Your character most certainly feels the connection as the PC even brings it up from time to time.

4. The only thing that's really in doubt is the actual lethality of it which Kreia herself even states she isn't sure that it is deadly. She believes it *might* be. At the end of the game, she uses the threat of the POSSIBILITY in an attempt to stop you from killing her; not because she truly believes the connection is actually deadly.

Anyways, anyone who reads this following phrase proves once and for all that youa re just spamming and trolling absolute stupidity:


"And, yes, I know that she was "unconscious" so there's no need to get snide about it. In combat sense, she died. Call it what you will, she was dead to me for the duration of the fight. Yet it affected me in no way. Why?"

She never died. She was uncocnious. You alsos eem to forget that even though the PC had a connection with Bastilla in the first game; her being uncocnious never hurt you either.


"Like in the NWN OC how my high-wisdom Ranger PC knew that Desther was up to evil, but COULDN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT?"

Exactly. Thank you. Just because it was stupid in the OC; doesn't make it ok in KOTOR2. Idiot.


"How did you know it wasn't the council until they told you? I don't remember that being revealed anywhere until they told you, but I could be wrong on that."

The fact that when they originally judged you guilty of betrayal and kicked you out they never took your powers away. Your connection to the force mysteriously disseappaeared in your random travels. Logic dictates that if the Council *had* rmeoved your force connection; they'd have done it when they gave you the boot. If they feeled that you no longer had the 'right' to it; they wouldn't have waited to punish you with the rempval until your were long gone.

Then there's the fact whenever you met one of the Council; they were always surprised when you brought up the fact you had temporarily lost your connection to the orce. Of cours,e one could assume they could lie about that; but of course logic dictates that they have absolutely nothing to gain from such a lie. And, I doubt the Council would lie just because.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

As for proof, if I share you would just say it was a lame trick; or point to some stupid secret rare SW book that is totally irreleavnt.

Oh ye of little faith. And it's not a super secret rare book. It's the core SW D20 rules which is relevant considering that's the system both KOTOR's were based off of.

1. Kreia can contact you from far distances.

Explainable through other means.

2. If one of you uses a self effecting force power; it effects the other. I cna see Kreia being able to fake it when she uses her force powers; but not when you use yours.

And there we have it. See? I hadn't even thought about that. You've got a good point with that one and I will admit that it's would be virtually impossible to fake that unless Kreia was omniscient, which I seriously doubt.

3. Your character most certainly feels the connection as the PC even brings it up from time to time.

Of course you would feel it even if it was being faked.

Anyways, anyone who reads this following phrase proves once and for all that youa re just spamming and trolling absolute stupidity:

Hahaha! Now that's the pot calling the kettle black to the extreme. I was throwing out legit reasons why I felt the way I did and was not spamming or trolling in anyways until you guys started doing so. Even then I didn't, I just defended myself. So what if I think the unconscious thing is bullshit. I payed money for the game. It's mine. I can feel the way I think about it. But, of course I'm a moron for doing so and you'll point this out to me and the vicious cycle of you trying to get a rise out of people so you can have a glorious masturbation moment while reading their responses will continue.

Ah well. Back to Plan B.

 

[Volourn]

"It's the core SW D20 rules which is relevant considering that's the system both KOTOR's were based off of."

LOL Based off of is the key. So much has changed from the rulebooks; I think it's best to stick with the what the game states not some book where the rules ar enot the same.


"Explainable through other means."

Not in game, it isn't. This is the same silliness where people suggest we should go strictly by the FO Bible. I think not.


"And there we have it. See? I hadn't even thought about that. You've got a good point with that one and I will admit that it's would be virtually impossible to fake that unless Kreia was omniscient, which I seriously doubt."

Yay. You admit my victory. At least this once. Well, it's a start.


"Of course you would feel it even if it was being faked."

Eh. Not if they wer ebeing true and consistent to your character's abckground. Youa ren't some willy nilly. You have a powerful connection with the force. So much so, you were able to self inflcit the cutting off from it. I think your character should be able to feel if a such a force bond was 'faked'. Espicially since force bonds aren't exactly like someone's writing - they arne't easily faked and I doubt Ms. Kreia had the power to pull it off.


"So what if I think the unconscious thing is bullshit. I payed money for the game. It's mine. I can feel the way I think about it."

That's silly. You may dislike the unconcious thing. Hell, I hate the unconcious thing myself. I found it to be a cop out in both KOTORs. That still doesn't change the fact that's how the combat rules work in KOTOR2 work. Calling it bullshit means nothing. I cna call bullshit on how it was possible to die from one critical hit in Fo from across the screen was bullshit; but it still doens't change the fact that's how the rules work.

It seems silly to create a hypothesis about a game's story and try to make it 'right' by basically making things up about the rules.


"Back to Plan B."

LOL Plan B? Is that when you start ignoring me again? I survived the heartbreak of our seperation the last time; I'm sure to do it again.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

It seems silly to create a hypothesis about a game's story and try to make it 'right' by basically making things up about the rules.

I was not trying to make it right, nor was I making things up. I was posting my opinions and backing them up with things I new about the game system and the SW universe. But then you know this and are just doing what you do best, so I'll let it slide.

As for the unconscious thing, if they all go unconscious then it's game over. Why? If we're unconscious wouldn't the bad guys at least keep one of us to interrogate us, thus giving us the opportunity to escape at a later time? You would think so, but no, they die. And thanks to intervention from the magical RPG gods roll they are revived as soon as the last enemy is defeated. Give praise to the mighty RPG gods!

LOL Plan B? Is that when you start ignoring me again? I survived the heartbreak of our seperation the last time; I'm sure to do it arn"]gain.

No. That was Plan A.

 

[Volourn]

"I was not trying to make it right, nor was I making things up. I was posting my opinions and backing them up with things I new about the game system and the SW universe. But then you know this and are just doing what you do best, so I'll let it slide."

KOTOR series is not pnp SW. It never was. To base opinions of the KOTOR seies on pnp SW is just plain silly.


"Why? If we're unconscious wouldn't the bad guys at least keep one of us to interrogate us, thus giving us the opportunity to escape at a later time?"

Why would they need or want to interrogate anyone? You do realize it's a game mechanic. Who cares if it makes perfect sense. Well, obviously you do.


"No. That was Plan A."

Oh. Is Plan B for you to come to 644 Lakeshore Dr Unit 36, North Bay, Ontario, Kanada and kick my ass?


R00fles!