Editorial GameSpy on Troika and publishers

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Troika Games

Two weeks ago <a href=http://www.gamespy.com>GameSpy</a> posted this <a href=http://www.gamespy.com/articles/592/592496p1.html?fromint=1>eulogy to a flawed developer</a> that put most of the blame on Troika. While there is not much left to discuss about Troika, <a href=http://www.gamespy.com/articles/596/596238p1.html?fromint=1>this new article</a> shifts the blame and explains why publishers are evil but dumb assholes.
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<blockquote>All that said, I've heard from several Troika employees, all of them off the record, about what went down there. Suffice to say that it was a combination of things on both the developer and publisher sides, which doesn't really surprise me. What I'm impressed with is how public the Troika founders have been in taking responsibility for their mistakes. But yes, there was more fault there on Activision's part than I probably indicated in the column.
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As far as the industry issues go ... you're right, although I question equating Troika's demise with gamers "refusing to buy garbage." Troika's titles had some issues, but they were by and large smarter, more creative, and more unique than 90% of what was on the market. That ain't garbage, by a long shot.
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There's a reason that publishers go out of business all the time (or come damn near it. The Tony Hawk series basically saved Activision from spiraling down the toilet). It's because the publishing model is COMPLETELY RETARDED. It makes no sense to shovel fifty pounds of crap out the door and hope that one pound of it sells enough to pay for development of the other forty-nine. Publishers employ too many people, there is too much overhead, they're poorly run, 90% of their producers are egomaniacal power-mongers ... it just goes on and on.
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The problem is that voting with your dollars more often than not kills the developers and leaves the publishers standing. Because when they luck into a good game (and the years I've spent observing publishers telling me that, yes, it's luck), then that pays for all of the previous crap that they rushed out the door, didn't allow time to finish, bankrolled even though it was clearly a bad/impossible idea, or otherwise screwed up.
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I hope that on-line forms of distribution will improve in the near future and bring us creative and innovative titles instead of all that crap we see everyday.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rpgdot.com">RPG Dot</A>

 

[Volourn]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's. Not. Troika's. Fault.

Whatever.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Volly, I don't know what's wrong with you and whether or not modern medicine can help you, but at least try to pretend that you understand posts you are replying to.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Bloodlines wasn't completely garbage but it wasn't what people wanted to play or see Troika making, either.

 

[Trash]

Rather, it's that you're more willing to look past certain issues and find the good stuff in the game. It's a subconscious, unintentional, but very visible problem with the whole concept of reviews in general, which is why I don't ever read game reviews to help me decide what to buy (I sometimes read them AFTER I've already played the game, to see what other people thought, as was the case with the KotOR II review).

Then why the fuck should I read gamespy eh?

 

[M0rphz0rz]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's. Not. Troika's. Fault.

Whatever.

Try a different auto-response from time to time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't think the issue is distribution at all. The Internet solves that problem very well.

Not that well. Downloading 3G+ games is impossible for many gamers. Besides, when I said "forms of online distribution" I meant more than just an internet connection. It's the whole thing that would include marketing, proper printable manuals, and even on-going content updates, extras, etc.

What independent and alternate games need is marketing, and unfortunately, that comes down to...wait for it...money.

There are different forms of marketing: old and new, cheap and expensive, push and pull. Printing big-ass ads and making pretty boxes facing you as you walk into a store aint the only thing that could be done.

The idea that your band can cut a song, slap it up on the web and become the next Rolling Stones is naive at best. The same can be said for independent and alternate games. What you need is exposure, exposure, exposure and a distribution channel is not going to give that to you. Marketing will.

First, nobody's talking about the next Rolling Stones, but about being able to make a living and have enough money for future projects (something that Troika couldn't get). Second, there are tons of free ways to create exposure and hype shows. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I don't think the issue is distribution at all. The Internet solves that problem very well.

Not that well. Downloading 3G+ games is impossible for many gamers. Besides, when I said "forms of online distribution" I meant more than just an internet connection. It's the whole thing that would include marketing, proper printable manuals, and even on-going content updates, extras, etc.

Here's the catch. People who cant afford to download 3 gigabyte games probably dont have the computers capable of running them in the first place, so they are NOT an issue. You might like the idea of dumbing a game down to 20mb for your game, VD, but most people who want to play your game can probably download a couple hundred megs without breaking a sweat. I don't know why you want to cater to the people with 200mhz computers when they dont even come to the Codex.

 

[Balor]

Hey, don't speak for everyone, Exitium.
I have a computer that runs Bloodlines with all it's imperfections rather flawlessly (and HL2 literally flies on my rig), but downloading 100 megs costs me 10 bucks. So, as you understand, downloading entire HL2 would cost me MUCH, much more then ordering it overseas.
And it stands true for a lot of Russians. I'm sure that situation is similar not only for people like us.
And besides, there are still people with dialup out there.
But I agree - online game distributoin will come and dominate... eventially. But not right now.
And besides, such step will have to be done hand-in-hand with upgrade of entire structure of online communications... Or whole WWW will be reduced ot more then simply World Wide Wait... Expecially since games become bigger and bigger.

 

[Reklar]

I come to the Codex daily and my computer is a 600MHz with a dial-up connection. Do you have anymore insults you want to hurl in my general direction, Exitium, or are you too busy with your broadband connection downloading warez?

I think the problem has less to do with distribution and more to do with what publishers choose to support. Many of the games being shipped nowdays barely need a manual, something I've seen attributed to well selling titles like Dungeon Siege, so I don't think that's really the issue either. The real problem seems to be catering to the lowest common denominator. Twitch gaming, uncomplicated hack-n-slash, and flashy graphics remind me too much of what Hollywood became, and for the same reasons, lowering standards to increase market-share. It seems to me if publishers supported multiple developers, each with their own specialty, there would be more quality games and less bargin-bin shovelware.

-Reklar
(a Fallout/RPG fan)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Here's the catch. People who cant afford to download 3 gigabyte games probably dont have the computers capable of running them in the first place, so they are NOT an issue.

They are when we are talking about 400-500,000 copies to sell. Every gamer counts. I did the survey thingy here awhile ago, and more than half said that their d/l limit for whatever reasons is 50-100 MB. Granted, it's not a real survey and only a handful of people posted there, but there is no need to assume that everyone has a high speed connection. For many people the difference between $0-10/m and $30-50 is a lot. Why waste them on faster internet accesss? To watch more and better porn?

You might like the idea of dumbing a game down to 20mb for your game, VD, but most people who want to play your game can probably download a couple hundred megs without breaking a sweat.

First, it's 50MB now. Second, "most" isn't a number. All I know is that Spiderweb has been in business for 10 years. I don't think Jeff is stupid or couldn't afford better graphics. There is a reason for that, and at this point I'll take his word for that.

 

[Halenthal]

The real problem seems to be catering to the lowest common denominator. Twitch gaming, uncomplicated hack-n-slash, and flashy graphics remind me too much of what Hollywood became, and for the same reasons, lowering standards to increase market-share.

Hit the nail on the head, I'd say.

 

[obediah]

As far as the industry issues go ... you're right, although I question equating Troika's demise with gamers "refusing to buy garbage." Troika's titles had some issues, but they were by and large smarter, more creative, and more unique than 90% of what was on the market. That ain't garbage, by a long shot.

"some issues"????? This gem of denial almost ruins the entire article. Anyone that thinks Troika's games suffered from minor bugs is either a rabid fanboy or one of those fucking morons that just assume all games are buggy and spouts of shit about starving children anytime anyone stands up and says games must have better QA and testing.

I know I've been hard on Troika here, but that's only because I love what they were trying to do, and I'm pissed at them for fucking up (and because I hate fanboys - and purging the codex of Troika fanboys will make it the most fanboy-free place on the net (hooray!)). We're all better served by figuring out what Troika could have done to survive and make better games. The Publisher is where gaming meets commerce - the rules of commerce are changing, so the developers need to learn how to present a more professional interface.

 

[Sol Invictus]

For many people the difference between $0-10/m and $30-50 is a lot. Why waste them on faster internet accesss? To watch more and better porn?

There's all sorts of reasons, but saving time is the primary reason why most people opt for broadband over sluggish 56k. Would you rather drive a junker from the 1920s that isn't allowed on the freeway, or even a main road for that matter, for 10 dollars a month when you can drive a Ferrari for 30 dollars a month? The difference in monetary value is 20 dollars, but what you get is a performance increase that can range from 1000% (56k -> 512kb ) to 5000% (2.5mbit)

I don't know about you, but I think time is money, and I don't particularly relish the idea of waiting 5 minutes for a graphically intense website to load up. There's all sorts of other reasons too, conveniences if you will: being able to stream select internet radio, or tv shows, listen to music while you browse the web via internet radio, upload and share your creations or personal files over the internet without any hassle, download online magazines, and yes, even browse porn. Is it terribly odd to think that people might have something more to do than simply download porn or illegal software? It's funny how some of you only seem to accuse broadband users (e.g. me) of 'downloading warez' just because you're too fucking stupid to comprehend any other reasons for using broadband. Get a life, Reklar.

First, it's 50MB now. Second, "most" isn't a number. All I know is that Spiderweb has been in business for 10 years. I don't think Jeff is stupid or couldn't afford better graphics. There is a reason for that, and at this point I'll take his word for that.

You're really missing the point here. Jeff's user base is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who download 250mb demos on a daily basis, and you're more interested in catering to a few thousand or so people who make up Spiderweb's fanbase over the millions of gamers with better internet access?

Personally I think Jeff is in fact very narrow minded for only catering to this small crowd of people when he could be making a lot more money just by making his game appeal to people whose computers don't consist of 10 year old piles of junk from their grandmother's attics. No animation or sound? Oh yeah, that'll really appeal to people. You can argue all you like about how unimportant sound or animation is in comparison to gameplay but I'll ask you to look at the sales figures of games with sound and animation, ones over 10 years old, and compare them to the games without sound and animation of that time. I'll guarantee you Syndicate sold more copies than the text game of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I know I've been hard on Troika here, but that's only because I love what they were trying to do, and I'm pissed at them for fucking up (and because I hate fanboys - and purging the codex of Troika fanboys will make it the most fanboy-free place on the net (hooray!)).

That's the stupidest thing I've read lately. Love the" I'm pissed at them for fucking up" part.

The Publisher is where gaming meets commerce - the rules of commerce are changing, so the developers need to learn how to present a more professional interface.

The only thing that developers like Troika need to learn is how to make dual-platform dumbed down games for the mainstream audience. Get a clue.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Troika did fuck up. They made a game nobody wanted to play. It has little to do with the quality of game, per se, though that did contribute quite a bit to the game's lack of appeal. It's just that I don't know anyone who's particularly interested in playing a dumbed down FPS/Action game cum RPG-lite in an idiotic gothic vampire setting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're really missing the point here. Jeff's user base is miniscule in comparison to the number of people who download 250mb demos on a daily basis, and you're more interested in catering to a few thousand or so people who make up Spiderweb's fanbase over the millions of gamers with better internet access?

One can argue that people who download 250MB demos on daily basis:

a) have no shortage of games to play, i.e. why pay for this game if I have 10 more demos to try.
b) accustomed to finest and latest graphics. You do realize that while I can make a somewhat better game, I can't compete with real development houses. I have a 4-people team: designer, 2 programmers, and an artist. Aint much. Anyway, I will release a few screens in a few days, then you'll see what I have.

Personally I think Jeff is in fact very narrow minded for only catering to this small crowd of people when he could be making a lot more money just by making his game appeal to people whose computers don't consist of 10 year old piles of junk from their grandmother's attics. No animation or sound? Oh yeah, that'll really appeal to people.

Maybe. Maybe not. I'd like to pretend that I know better then him, but I won't. At this point, his 10 years in business is impressive enough to consider as a model, at least for the first project. I do have animations though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Troika did fuck up. They made a game nobody wanted to play...

...because they were too busy playing Half Life 2.

 

[Sol Invictus]

One can argue that people who download 250MB demos on daily basis:

a) have no shortage of games to play, i.e. why pay for this game if I have 10 more demos to try.
b) accustomed to finest and latest graphics. You do realize that while I can make a somewhat better game, I can't compete with real development houses. I have a 4-people team: designer, 2 programmers, and an artist. Aint much. Anyway, I will release a few screens in a few days, then you'll see what I have.

Simple. If it's good, people will play it, and people will buy it. I recently bought Jets n' Guns for 20 dollars, because it is worth playing and I got hopelessly addicted to it. As far as I know, they don't have much of a development team, either.

I don't think anyone's asking for the latest in Havok 2.0 physics engine technology. Even Pixelshaders are pretty easy to implement, thanks to DX9, but that's not what I'm saying, either, but I don't think anyone would be particularly interested in playing a game with no sound or animations, or one without variety at that. It's one thing to have say, an animated character, but I think you should consider putting more effort into the way the character looks. Some amount of variation on par with Diablo 1: 9 player models - 3 for each character (light armor, medium armor, heavy armor), 5 weapon types per character: swords, staves, maces, axes, bows for example would make the game very appealing. I still play Diablo, to this day - even with far graphically superior games out in the market.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Troika did fuck up. They made a game nobody wanted to play...

...because they were too busy playing Half Life 2.

I don't agree with that. Most of Half Life 2's fanbase isn't in any way interested in playing Vampire: Bloodlines. The game just doesn't appeal to them. It didn't appeal to most of the Codex either, if you'll look up on posts made before the game was released. I was looking forward to it, somewhat, but only because of Troika's involvement and not for any other reason.

Half Life's fanbase is interested in games like, HL2, Doom 3, Serious Sam, Pariah and yes even Painkiller. They're not interested in games like Deus Ex Invisible War, or Thief 3, much less Vampire: Bloodlines. So why did Troika try so hard to appeal to them? That's where they fucked up. The exact same can be said about BlueByte, with their most recent Settlers 5: Heritage of Kings title. They had a very strong Settlers fanbase, a powerful niche, if you will, but they tried to appeal to the Warcraft 3/Command & Conquer Generals RTS fanbase (which is much larger) and they completely failed, due to the game's blandness and genericness. The fact that it plays approximately to a poor clone of Warcraft 3 rather than a Settlers gave drove away the Settlers niche gamers, too. Settlers was never about combat or rush building. It was about maintaining a small kingdom's infrastructure (on the level of a barony or a lordship) with undetailed, and simple but cute and attractive looking cartoony characters, known as Serfs. Settlers V does away with all of the features that made the series as popular as it was, and it's also the main reason why the game is getting extremely poor reception from any crowd.

 

[Forever Cast in Deepest N]

What disappointed me the most was the fact that they had developed Bloodlines using the Source Engine instead of using their own TOEE engine which i think would have been the best idea(Facial animations was the reason i believe)

Whether Activision would have funded the project if it used the TOEE engine is something that i will never know (Most likely not though).

I never bought bloodlines since i do not have a system to run it. If it does not run properly on High End machines (as i have read on forums), i cannot even imagine how it poorly it would run on my old box.

Exitium: I have not checked any gaming news for quite a while but is it true they have "Dumbed Down" the new setters game?

 

[Kuato]

The issue should be divorcing funding for Development from Publishers and finding alternative sources for funding, I dont have any solutions yet but I think looking into pre-ordering sales data may actually provide a better clue to what consumers really want thus lowering the "risk" greatly for some games, Imagine a business model where the consumers fund a project, if you pre-invest in a game put 5$ down on the kind of game you want and when its finished you get a brand new game for only 5$ or better yet if the game does really well you even get your 5$ back,
I think games would improve greatly when Developers lose the strings and are actually able to call shots on a game, If we want innovation in games its not going to fit in the compartment(box) of predictable mediocrity that Publishers enforce, Maybe making a game that can break new ground may also need to break schedules, with the amount R&D and emerging technology that goes into games, Publishers can only realistically expect cookie cutter factory turn arounds on something where the design and tech never changes rehash after rehash...... Bleh!

 

[Greatatlantic]

Simple. If it's good, people will play it, and people will buy it.

If you believe that, I got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Games we all know are trash are constantly showing their faces on best seller lists. Some good games, like Torment, become legendary for no one buying them.

 

[Country_Gravy]

Hey, don't speak for everyone, Exitium.
I have a computer that runs Bloodlines with all it's imperfections rather flawlessly (and HL2 literally flies on my rig), but downloading 100 megs costs me 10 bucks. So, as you understand, downloading entire HL2 would cost me MUCH, much more then ordering it overseas.
And it stands true for a lot of Russians. I'm sure that situation is similar not only for people like us.
And besides, there are still people with dialup out there.
But I agree - online game distributoin will come and dominate... eventially. But not right now.
And besides, such step will have to be done hand-in-hand with upgrade of entire structure of online communications... Or whole WWW will be reduced ot more then simply World Wide Wait... Expecially since games become bigger and bigger.

I believe he was referring to real people, not Russians.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Simple. If it's good, people will play it, and people will buy it.

I agree with Greatatlantic on this one. There are many bestsellers that are utter shit, and many great games that nobody (in comparison) bought.

I don't think anyone would be particularly interested in playing a game with no sound or animations, or one without variety at that. It's one thing to have say, an animated character, but I think you should consider putting more effort into the way the character looks. Some amount of variation on par with Diablo 1: 9 player models - 3 for each character (light armor, medium armor, heavy armor), 5 weapon types per character: swords, staves, maces, axes, bows for example would make the game very appealing. I still play Diablo, to this day - even with far graphically superior games out in the market.

Well, I've never said that I'd follow the Spiderweb model to the letter. Every character is properly animated, there are 4 types of armor and 8 types of weapons that are clearly visible.