Preview Gaming Excellence's opinion on Dungeon Siege 2

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Dungeon Siege 2; Gas Powered Games

Another Dungeon Siege 2 preview. This time it's <a href=http://www.gamingexcellence.com>Gaming Excellence</a>'s turn to convince us that <a href=http://www.gamingexcellence.com/pc/games/270/preview.shtml>DS2 is all you ever wanted in an RPG</a>. People with high expectations need not apply.
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<blockquote>Since the earliest text-based RPGs, combat has always been considered an integral element of gameplay. Dungeon Siege II doesn’t disappoint in this department. Players have a multitude of different weapons and armour to choose from when doing battle. As well, characters graduate to bigger and better weapons and magic spells according to their chosen specialty. The basic combat sequence itself is pretty simple. Players choose a formation for their party to take (useful in situations where you want everyone to attack one powerful enemy), equip their weapon of choice, and right-click the baddies they wish to attack. <u>From there, it’s really a matter of strategy and timing.</u> As heroes receive damage their health bar in the character panel shrinks. This is when it becomes crucial to have your characters drink health and mana potions found in little vials throughout the game to top up their physical and magical strength.</blockquote>I guess the strategy is to pick a potion to click on, unless it's also automatic.
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I like the last paragraph, here is a short version: It's a valuable addition to the RPG genre. It didn't really add anything, but the fucker is really long.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's News</A>

 

[space captain]

HUMANS SUCK

 

[Mefi]

I think this could be the perfect Christmas present for my PC. Would give it something to do while I go down the pub

 

[Fez]

The best game you'll ever watch.

 

[FireWolf]

bigger and better weapons and magic spells according to their chosen specialty.

Ph4t l3wt!!!11/1

Interestingly enough, I thought combat was a means to an end in Role Playing games, not an integral element. I wonder if there is any freedom of role in a game that forces you to be a combat class and obtain your objectives through combat. Surely this is an action game, not an RPG?

Puzzles me that the writer has dedicated a large section to the bad voice/text integration when they were forewarned that this was still work in progress. Surely a simple statement informing that this feature is not finished and thus any report on its current state is entirely irrelivant would have sufficed.

Unfortunately it appears the "combat" of this game is all about "potion timing". Yes! Strategic use of healing potions!

 

[Sol Invictus]

It's an RPG. Dungeon crawlers are RPGs.

Honestly, I don't understand the deal with you people. You get all riled up whenever we cover Dungeon Siege 2 or Restricted Area but you don't make a fuss when we cover Roguelikes, which have even less role-playing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's an RPG. Dungeon crawlers are RPGs.

Honestly, I don't understand the deal with you people. You get all riled up whenever we cover Dungeon Siege 2 or Restricted Area but you don't make a fuss when we cover Roguelikes, which have even less role-playing.

Most roguelikes allow the unprecedented level of interactions and stuff to do, from training your pet to steal stuff to digging a tunnel under a locked/trapped door to dealing with gods:

"MORTAL, YE DAREST TO SWITCH THEE ALIGNMENT AFTER *I* HAVE CROWNED YE TO BE MY CHAMPION?!? DIE FOR THIS SACRILEGE!"

A bolt of black energy hits you!
You seem to be immune to that bolt.

You hear a voice in your mind...
"*DAMN, YOU'LL PAY FOR THIS HUMILIATION, TOO*"

 

[Sol Invictus]

And the other half of them are dungeon crawlers with little to no dialogue.

 

[Vault Dweller]

True, but role-playing is not only in dialogues. If I can play any character I like in a manner that would fit such a character that's role-playing. That could be achieved via dialogues or via a truckload of actions. The problem with games like DS and other akshun RPGs is that they give you only mindless slaughter without ANY interaction and/or ability to actually role-play your character.

 

[Avin]

... trying to figure it out why the codex are talking about this crap...

 

[Saran]

While having loads of RP options is always a plus, i dont really see how good it is when the game itself is boring as fuck, roguelikes bore the shit out of me, therefore i hate it, same with dungeon siege 2, i was originally looking forward too it becuase of the promise of a decent story but it looks like that idea has been thrown out the window, but while it will probably be shit it doesnt automatically mean that it isnt an CRPG.

The silly thing about this whole "What makes a CRPG a CRPG?" is that we are arguing about limitations.

According to what your saying VD, roguelike is more of an RPG because you can do more stuff in it than you can in dungeon siege, can i rape a corpse in any of the roguelikes you have played?

Hmmm, thats a limitation, until someone makes a CRPG with the ability to skull fuck corpses and teabag imps i dont consider it a CRPG.

Whether you agree with it or not a CRPG is generally considered to be a game in which you have more freedom than your average platformer/FPS game and the ability to increase your skills and stats, Dungeon Siege 2 has both, whether it is a good game or not is down to an individuals own tastes, but whether it is a CRPG or not cant really be called into question.

While it may have more limitations than some other CRPGS that doesnt mean that it isnt one, its a CRPG, regardless of its quality, you cant really use the lack of deep RPing against it, especially since every game, no matter how open ended, has its limitations.

You said for instance that RP isnt only in dialogues, its also in the actions you are allowed to take, in that case in far cry when i crouched down over the mouth of an enemy i was RPing the role of a necrophialiac that gets off on having a corpse lick his balls, in DE:IW i was RPing a pyromaniac when i gathered up the bodies of the dead and tossed them into a fire, if a CRPG is as much, or perhaps more so, in the head than based upon a certain set of gaming conventions (Stats, E.T.C.) then every game is a CRPG.

So where does it begin or end, what makes DS2 an action game, what makes the roguelikes true CRPGS?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You said for instance that RP isnt only in dialogues

Damn straight baby, I'm everywhere.

if a CRPG is as much, or perhaps more so, in the head than based upon a certain set of gaming conventions (Stats, E.T.C.) then every game is a CRPG.

Actually no. A CRPG, unlike a pen and paper RPG, isn't more about imagination (the "in the head" part). Whereas a pen and paper game is structured around the possibility of using your imagination, a CRPG is much more limited and does not work based on your imagination, but rather on your decisions based on the choices presented to you in the game. Far Cry can't be considered an RPG because you imagine the character to be someone else, nor can you consider it roleplaying because you imagine the character's emotions or thoughts. In a CRPG, you can imagine a character's emotions, thoughts, reasons... But imagining won't achieve anything. You have to make decisions that the gameworld will recognize as being valid in the context of the game. If you pick on your example of Far Cry and apply it to, say, Bloodlines, that doens't make it necessarily a roleplaying option. If the game adequately reacted to that, however, then it would be one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

While having loads of RP options is always a plus, i dont really see how good it is when the game itself is boring as fuck, roguelikes bore the shit out of me...

Your dislike of a certain genre/sub-genre is merely a preference, the presence of RP options or lack thereof is a fact, and that's what we were discussing.

According to what your saying VD, roguelike is more of an RPG because you can do more stuff in it than you can in dungeon siege, can i rape a corpse in any of the roguelikes you have played?

No, it's not about limitations. It's about RP options. Some games have them, some don't. Some games are loaded with them, some have the bare min. The more options you have, the higher RP value of a game is.

It's not about skullfucking or shitslinging. It's not about thinking of something stupid and trying to see if the game support that. It's about RP options that fit the setting, your character, and logic of a situation.

Whether you agree with it or not a CRPG is generally considered to be a game in which you have more freedom than your average platformer/FPS game and the ability to increase your skills and stats, Dungeon Siege 2 has both, whether it is a good game or not is down to an individuals own tastes, but whether it is a CRPG or not cant really be called into question.

Easily. There are many adventure games with stats. There are even FPS and RTS games with stats. According to you, a WC3 map is an RPG, is it not? You've got your freedom, stats, and skills. What more can you ask for in an RPG?

You said for instance that RP isnt only in dialogues, its also in the actions you are allowed to take, in that case in far cry when i crouched down over the mouth of an enemy i was RPing the role of a necrophialiac that gets off on having a corpse lick his balls...

Uh, what's with you and balls licking? Anyway, FC does offer a surprising degree of freedom, but there is no RP there. Surely you realize that doing one simple action, no matter what it is, isn't role-playing?

So where does it begin or end, what makes DS2 an action game, what makes the roguelikes true CRPGS?

We've had many discussions, here are some links:

http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2543
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4315
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5546

 

[Saran]

I thought that after all of the trouble over on the obsidian boards you would have realised that this place is apparently a haven of homoerotocism, all i was doing was living up to that stereotype with my comments on ball licking. :wink:

And yes, disliking a certain genre is down to preference, but so is classification of CRPG's in many ways, as you said the more options you have to RP the better, and the closer it is to the original meaning of CRPGs, but all CRPG's have limits to just how much you can RP, which is understandable, the question im asking is when do those limitations (on Freedom to RP) stop a game from being considered a CRPG, in regards to warcraft 3, thats a hybrid, it is an RTS with RPG elements, its too restrictive to be a CRPG, the thing is Baldurs Gate is, in its own way, just as restrictive when it comes to deviation from the main story, so is Fallout, so is nearly every single game that is classified as a CRPG, im not really trying to debate anything here, im just interested in what defines a CRPG, so i apologise if all im doing is asking about something that has been argued about a hundred times over, i intend to take a look at those threads you pointed out tomorrow so maybe that will clarify what most of you consider to be a genuine RPG.

As you said doing something in an FPS between battles doesnt make it an RPG, but it does allow you to act out something, whether thats just hiding from the enemy because your "Character" is scared or teabagging ( ) a corpse becuase your "Character" is a pervert, how is that different from only robbing rich people in morrowind, or only doing quests for good guys in FO, anyways, if i continue on with this im going to sound like a stoner thats thinking a bit too much or an idiot (if i dont sound like one already) but its just that i find it pretty hard to see a concrete definition for CRPG's, in many ways one of the only ways to define the genre is its freedom compared to other genres, its stats (which i dont really give a shit about) and the ability to chose how you want to deal with a situation. (which varies from game to game, in BG all you could do in a lot of cases was say different lines before fighting, but in the first half of Bloodlines for instance you could often find multiple ways to deal with a quest.)

So ill go take a look at those threads you pointed out, maybe they point out something im missing, its just that for all intents and purposes (at least as far as gaming as a whole is concerned) CRPG= diablo, fo, roguelikes, DS2 and so on, the only difference is the sub-genres they fit into. (There is also the fact that there is a lot of cross pollination between various genres, more and more FPS's are taking bits and pieces from CRPG's, its becoming increasingly difficult to decide which genre a game fits into, i guess i just think its a bit silly saying a game isnt a true CRPG, maybe it doesnt have a lot of roleplaying, which admitedly is fairly stupid when you consider the genre has roleplaying in its name, but it has enough of the other things common in the genre to be considered one, at least by your average gamer.)

 

[Claw]

Actually, Diablo is an RTS, just like Baldur's Gate, Counterstrike and UT2k4.

 

[Shagnak]

Oh, absolutely.

In fact all non-turn-based games are RTS's

You carry out a strategy in real time, so they must be.

r00fles!

 

[Greatatlantic]

There can be no end to the discussion of what makes an RPG. On a practical level whenever a company labels their game as an RPG the industry takes their word for it. On a more technical level, crpgs are really attempts to emulate Pen and Paper rpgs on a computer, duh. Anyways, they traditionally have several elements: such as non-linearity, stat system, random "dice rolls", inventory, full figured women, and free character development. A game that has one of these is not necessarily an RPG, nor does a game require all of them to be one. Just food for thought.

 

[Sol Invictus]

DS2 is an RPG. Diablo is an RPG. Baldur's Gate is an RPG.

 

[Saran]

Thanks for the replies everyone, im going to have a good look threw all of the threads VD mentioned in a few moments, but its just that if we take freedom of choice, I.E: the ability to play any character you want freely within the confines of a setting, then surely MMORPG's are the closest thing we have to a "true" CRPG since they consist of nothing but treadmilling and gold collecting, there is no plot that drives you onwards, no drive to complete a quest, all you have to do is pick a role, get together with a few likeminded people and find a server that encourages RP and you have something that comes closer to achieving what makes a game a CRPG than any single player game to date, indeed Neverwinter Nights and its module system is probably one of the greatest examples of a single player CRPG due to the ability to create a module that allows whatever type of RP you want, whether its as a paladin or a prostitute.

So if freedom to RP is the main indicator of the quality of a CRPG then MMORPGS like EQ and single player games like Morrowind and the toolset of NWN score higher than FO, BG and Arcanum, maybe you dislike the dialogue system of Morrowind, or the OC of Neverwinter, but the abilitys they grant to the player in regard to allowing them to RP is better than all of the other "Greats" of the CRPG genre.

I dont know about you, but the crazy shit of Everquest and the (mostly) mundane modules of NWN dont strike me as the greatest examples of what a CRPG can do, but i suppose that is down to personal preferences more than anything else.

For me what makes CRPGs my favourite Genre is the depth of storytelling found in even the most crappy example of the genre, while i hate diablo for instance, i would still chose it over counterstrike any day of the week becuase while plot is thin on the ground, at least you get some feeling of accomplishment from finishing it, counter strike just goes on and on and on, the only reward at the end of a match is some 15 year old "AMERIKA IS TEH AWSOMEST0rZzZ!!!!" arsehole insulting you becuase of your accent or calling you a cheating fag becuase you killed him.

So for the most part i think GreatAtlantic has hit the nail on the head, it has more to do with the things that most games have in common rather than a single trait that has come to define CRPGS, regardless of the original meaning of the term, if stats and so on are unimportant then stalker, with its vast freedom of movement and the ability to behave in whatever manner you wish within the limitations of the setting is the next great event in the history of CRPG's, but while im really looking forward to the game i wouldnt consider it a CRPG regardless of the freedom you have to RP.

Ohh, and claw, fair enough, if thats how you view all CRPG's with a real time combat system, then surely you feel just as outraged that FO, a game that is nothing more than a glorified TB strategy game like the MOO series, is considered a CRPG!

Anyhow, i suppose this is a pretty pointless arguement since its as much a debate about personal tastes as it is about the genre itself, CRPGS are games with a number of common traits, what these traits are is decided by the publishers, its just that saying a game isnt a true CRPG isnt really that much of an insult, as far as im concerned all that matters is whether the game is genuinely good, or a turd with a shiny coating of hype and advertising. (And as far as DS2 is concerned, its looking more and more like a turd. :wink: )

Edit: I cant believe i completely missed RolePlayer's post just before VD's, sorry about that, i know what you mean, i was just using Far Cry as an example of the sort of freedom VD was talking about, a clumsy as hell example, thats why in the above post i stuck to what is considered by most to be games that fit into the CRPG category (well, one of the genres atleast.), What im clumsily trying to say is that i think CRPGS cant be judged by freedom to RP alone, maybe they should, but the realities of how games are put into a category is very different, and IMHO, most games that offer total freedom tend to be shit, but thats more a personal taste issue than anything else.

Now off i go to read some of those threads VD mentioned (At last!), my internet connection was cut off earlier today due to some problems with my ISP's server so i didnt get around to reading them as quickly as i would have liked, ohh, and looking back over the start of this post i look like a retarded game host or something with my "Thanks for your replys everyone..." by that i meant thanks for replying to my question because it appears as if you have debated this issue into the ground and probably the last thing you want is a noob setting it off again. :wink:

Edit 2: I just started reading and ive already found Vosh's post, and right after it is EEVIAC's , thats how i feel summed up better than i ever could have myself, that CRPGS have two main branches, the Linear story/hack n'slash driven side and the non linear side found in games like morrowind and the various MMORPG's, while both games are fairly different they all stem from the same sort of starting point, they mostly deal with skill progression and missions/quests in the same way but apart from that they take seperate paths in how they deal with exploration, plot, and other elements that revolve around progression within the game, so yea, DS2 is a CRPG, a different branch perhaps, but it has enough of the staples of the genre (not just a smattering of them like most hybrids) to be considered a CRPG, or then again, maybe not, i dont really give a shit to tell the truth, i think we can all agree when i say that a game with RPG on the back of the box doesnt mean quality, but just becuase a games shit doesnt mean it isnt a CRPG.
(Then again, according to Rosh im an "Uneducated Kiddie" , but id just like to clarify that i wasnt stating that i believe Far Cry is a CRPG, i was just using it as an example of what i think makes the freedom to RP=CRPG arguement silly.)

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Dungeon Siege isn't much of anything, honestly. Other than the seemless world, it really offers very little of anything remotely cool for any genre. You should probably call it a CRPG just because there's really nothing else you can call it in terms of gaming genres, but that's kind of like saying that Duck Hunt when you're two feet from the TV is a first person shooter. It boils down to about the same thing.

I'm hoping Dungeon Siege 2 is better, but I'm not sure how it couldn't be. Adding a bit of a character system would make it leaps and bounds better. Giving some options in combat would make it a lot better as well. They've added dialogue trees with a few choices to make, which helps. When you consider the first one, though, I don't think they could build on it and not make it better because Dungeon Siege is barely a game at all.

 

[Astromarine]

Stolen!

 

[Claw]

Ohh, and claw, fair enough, if thats how you view all CRPG's with a real time combat system, then surely you feel just as outraged that FO, a game that is nothing more than a glorified TB strategy game like the MOO series, is considered a CRPG! )

Oh yeah, and combat was pretty crappy at that. I really don't see how this game has any redeeming feature!
I would like to skin the reviewer who made me buy this game alive. :evil: