Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #29: Armor System and Fulfillment Website

[Zed]

Tags: J.E. Sawyer; Obsidian Entertainment; Pillars of Eternity

A spooky Josh Sawyer talks about armor design in the latest Project Eternity update.

Let's talk about armor design. Taken on its own, armor design isn't of eminent importance. It's just one of many subsystems that make up Project Eternity. However, looking at it in detail can expose problems that can be found across our various subsystems: by making something work well in a new system and setting, we can often put it at odds with the nostalgia of the old games (and "realism").

Back in the days of 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, we had all sorts of quasi- or non-historical armor types like banded mail, ring mail, and studded leather. You wore the heaviest armor you could because it typically had the best Armor Class. If plate mail was available, there weren't many reasons to wear splint mail or (horror of horrors) chain.The default rules limited the viability of certain character concepts because most characters of a given class were funneled down a specific equipment path.

3E sort of solved this problem by implementing Maximum Dexterity Bonus, which meant that characters with high Dexterity scores would generally equip whatever armor gave them the maximum bonus to Armor Class without capping the Armor Class bonus they received from Dexterity. There were a few problems with this.​

The update also brings us news on the fulfillment system for backers. Darren Monahan writes:

First off, I wanted to announce that we’re developing a fulfillment site, which we’re hoping to have online in the next month or two (I was hoping to have it up sooner, but my first baby is coming into the world in the next few days, eeep!). Everyone who backed the project on Kickstarter and/or PayPal will be e-mailed details that will give you credit on that site.​

Read more about armor design and the fulfillment website in the full update on Kickstarter.

 

[villain of the story]

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering. You can't discuss any subsystem on its own in vacuum without materialising a basic concept of how combat works unless you are shooting for the mundane. What are the differences between various types of armour? FFS, real life has all the answers which is the reason shit came into existence in the first place but oh no, LARPer piece of shit running around in loincloths must be catered to.

Also, this shit talk about maintaining "character concepts": this is like Bethesda taking out locational damage in Oblivion because players felt they couldn't ROLE-PLAY! their character when they had to wear helmets and then died quickly when they received blows on the head.

 

[Mrowak]

I guess they wanted to give the impression that they work on something and that they recognize various flaws in the previously used systems. Too bad all of that is meaningless without context. It's good that they have goals, but not so awesome that they don't know how to achieve them.

 

[4too]

Moar Product Placement!

… If armor types like hide (or scale, or mail) should remain viable on their own, how should that "upgrade" be expressed to the player? Functional descriptors like "fine scale", "superior hide", etc.? Cultural or material descriptors like "Vailian doublet", "iron feather scale"? Olde tyme numerical descriptors like "scale armor +1", "half-plate +2"? …

Keying off our 21st Century Consumer Consciousness, I elect the slam dunk of BRANDING !

Ranger ensembles could be sponsored by old school yuppy L.L.Bean or blaze orange camo Cabela's.

…LARPer … loincloths …

Been quite a while since I considered the navel gazing attributes of bronze bikinis and steel cock socks.

Fredrick's of Hollywood still a player? What else could a protagonist in tights, a ranger, phish for with daring net body suits?

Maybe, American Standard or Kohler could be approached to fund an uber line of stainless …




4too

 

[Johannes]

So, they will have different armors that have different advantages and disadvantages? Exciting.

 

[Bulba]

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering. You can't discuss any subsystem on its own in vacuum without materialising a basic concept of how combat works unless you are shooting for the mundane. What are the differences between various types of armour? FFS, real life has all the answers which is the reason shit came into existence in the first place but oh no, LARPer piece of shit running around in loincloths must be catered to.

Also, this shit talk about maintaining "character concepts": this is like Bethesda taking out locational damage in Oblivion because players felt they couldn't ROLE-PLAY! their character when they had to wear helmets and then died quickly when they received blows on the head.

dunno if history is the best place to look for answers there, since your goal will be to eqip 4-6 people and not thousads. When it comes to thousads you will go for the best price/quality ratio that you can afford while for a few people with nearly unlimited funds you'll go for the ridiculesly expensive equipment.

it's not that full plate does not help you to survive early gunshots, it's too expensive to pay for the minor off chance that it might help

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering.

I'm very glad to hear you say this - mostly because you have been wrong on every single other prediction you made in regards to this game, so to hear you say this is reassuring.

 

[villain of the story]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL: The most versatile and the longest-in-service armour to have existed in civilised human history up until the emergence of infantry firearms.
+ Great mobility.
+ Good to excellent protection against cuts, thrusts, slashes and arrows.
+ Easy to maintain, repair, modify, carry and store.
+ Anyone can just up and wear.
+ Relatively comfortable to wear (body heat, weather conditions etc.)
- Sucks against energy transfer (blunt trauma).
- Weighs down on shoulders
- Straining to wear.
- Expensive to produce.
- Noisy.

Lethality: Exposed body parts and blunt trauma.

Upgrade options:
+ Sleeves/Leggings/Gloves/Hood
+ Double the mail.
+ Plate pieces on the desired parts of the body.
+ Leather or other material over or beneath the mail.
+ Different/fantasy materials

PLATE:
+ Excellent protection against near everything, including blunt trauma.
+ Relatively good mobility.
+ Balanced distribution of weight on the body.
- Requires training to fight with and against effectively.
- Harder to maintain, repair, modify and store.
- Uncomfortable to wear (body heat, weather conditions etc.)
- Straining to wear.
- Fucking astronomical to produce.
- Fucking loud.
Lethality: exposed body parts, openings between plates.

Upgrade options:
+ Arms/Legs/Gloves/Helmet
+ Mail to protect exposed parts or openings.
+ Different/fantasy materials
+ It's fucking plate. It doesn't get any better than this. You don't need fucking upgrades once you have plate. You might need downgrades, however.


CONCLUSIONS:

(1) Apply hit difficulty ratings to body parts and rate them accordingly. Eg. most difficult to hit someone in full plate+mail, unless using a blunt weapon, so give it the best rating. Yes, basically AC. (edit for clarification: hit difficulty as in to actually wound the flesh of someone in full plate + mail.)

(2) Apply a kinetic-transfer modifier for situations where a hit doesn't result in a wound but the energy transfer can still cause concussion or other minor injuries. Eg. Mail: protects against cut/slash/thrust/arrow but the kinetic energy still transfers, whether that translates to health damage or stamina damage or whatever.

(3) Likewise, use a damage threshold against energy transference for those situations or simply for actually cutting through the material eg. leather, mail in poor condition etc.

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering.

I'm very glad to hear you say this - mostly because you have been wrong on every single other prediction you made in regards to this game, so to hear you say this is reassuring.

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

Oh, here, have another prediction: because they want to cater to LARPER faggots, armour and damage system will be similar to the Bethesda model with emphasis on cosmetics. And remember to quote this post when the game comes out in 18+ months.

 

[godsend1989]

I guess this game will take forever to develop, get to work bitches.

 

[Bulba]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

If you think that the game will be total shit why did you donate?

 

[Mrowak]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

If you think that the game will be total shit why did you donate?

 

[oldmanpaco]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

If you think that the game will be total shit why did you donate?

It’s well known that vots cannot handle his booze and so in a fit of drunken remorse over his homo-erotic obsessions with
unnamed game developers he donated to the cause. You know, to make the shame go away.

 

[villain of the story]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

If you think that the game will be total shit why did you donate?

I don't think it will be total shit. I expect to play and enjoy the game. I didn't donate either.

 

[tuluse]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.

Obsidian: we want to make a game in the style of IE
Vots: I bet it's RTwP and like FR, r00fles!

Great job with your "prediction" buddy.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL

PLATE:
.

Examples of lamellar armor and shit, please! Curious to see how you'd represent it.

 

[ironyuri]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL

PLATE:
.

Examples of lamellar armor and shit, please! Curious to see how you'd misrepresent it.

Yes. I'm curious too. Please, vots, tell us more about shit you are ignorant of.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL

PLATE:
.

Examples of lamellar armor and shit, please! Curious to see how you'd misrepresent it.

Yes. I'm curious too. Please, vots, tell us more about shit you are ignorant of.

 

[J_C]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL: The most versatile and the longest-in-service armour to have existed in civilised human history up until the emergence of infantry firearms.
+ Great mobility.
+ Good to excellent protection against cuts, thrusts, slashes and arrows.
+ Easy to maintain, repair, modify, carry and store.
+ Anyone can just up and wear.
+ Relatively comfortable to wear (body heat, weather conditions etc.)
- Sucks against energy transfer (blunt trauma).
- Weighs down on shoulders
- Straining to wear.
- Expensive to produce.
- Noisy.

Lethality: Exposed body parts and blunt trauma.

Upgrade options:
+ Sleeves/Leggings/Gloves/Hood
+ Double the mail.
+ Plate pieces on the desired parts of the body.
+ Leather or other material over or beneath the mail.
+ Different/fantasy materials

PLATE:
+ Excellent protection against near everything, including blunt trauma.
+ Relatively good mobility.
+ Balanced distribution of weight on the body.
- Requires training to fight with and against effectively.
- Harder to maintain, repair, modify and store.
- Uncomfortable to wear (body heat, weather conditions etc.)
- Straining to wear.
- Fucking astronomical to produce.
- Fucking loud.
Lethality: exposed body parts, openings between plates.

Upgrade options:
+ Arms/Legs/Gloves/Helmet
+ Mail to protect exposed parts or openings.
+ Different/fantasy materials
+ It's fucking plate. It doesn't get any better than this. You don't need fucking upgrades once you have plate. You might need downgrades, however.


CONCLUSIONS:

(1) Apply hit difficulty ratings to body parts and rate them accordingly. Eg. most difficult to hit someone in full plate+mail, unless using a blunt weapon, so give it the best rating. Yes, basically AC.

(2) Apply a kinetic-transfer modifier for situations where a hit doesn't result in a wound but the energy transfer can still cause concussion or other minor injuries. Eg. Mail: protects against cut/slash/thrust/arrow but the kinetic energy still transfers, whether that translates to health damage or stamina damage or whatever.

(3) Likewise, use a damage threshold against energy transference for those situations or simply for actually cutting through the material eg. leather, mail in poor condition etc.

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering.

I'm very glad to hear you say this - mostly because you have been wrong on every single other prediction you made in regards to this game, so to hear you say this is reassuring.

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

Oh, here, have another prediction: because they want to cater to LARPER faggots, armour and damage system will be similar to the Bethesda model with emphasis on cosmetics. And remember to quote this post when the game comes out in 18+ months.

Since you are so clever (really, those are great points, although also arrogant), go and share them on their forums. Maybe they will use your feedback.

 

[villain of the story]

Examples of my "misrepresentations" please. Curious to see what sort of insane Hollywood bullshit you have been spoonfed, tinyuri. That is, assuming you actually have something to share. Go now, google a couple hundred references for the tiniest bit of historical anomaly to prove me wrong. Anticipating potential confusion for retards like yourself, I have presented the points as single articles so it should be easier to look up.

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.

Obsidian: we want to make a game in the style of IE
Vots: I bet it's RTwP and like FR, r00fles!

Great job with your "prediction" buddy.

Retarded strawman. Roughly 1/3 of the Codex literally expected Obsidian to make a TB game if and when they went Kickstarter. This was months before there was even a count down to the PE.

As for "wanting to make a game in the style of IE"; the last I read, there wasn't anything about "souls working as a resource" in Forgotten Realms. THEY ARE NOT MAKING A GAME IN THE STYLE OF IE, THEY ARE LIARS!

See, "wanting to make a game in the style of IE" doesn't mean they have to do a shitty FR derivative, as proven by the current state of the lore. Their races and core classes, however, are, which is sad.

Seriously, is this the best you can do? Coming up with retarded strawman trolling? You are pathetic. Even more pathetic are the losers brofisting your hollow jabs.

 

[Grunker]

First off: The fact that some people cannot into abstract mechanics instead of direct realism, even supposed fucking cRPG fans, is always most delightfully displayed in the debate of realistic armor mechanics. I'm enjoying myself, go on.

Second: I just don't get it. GURPS has been doing realistic yet functioning armor mechanics for more than a decade. Why is it still the hottest topic when people discuss realism and cRPGs?

Even in the prestigious Codex Workshop, people should sometimes accept the fact that someone has been working with their ideas for a lifetime and maybe might have solved some stuff they are considering.

This Kickstarter Update is the perfect example of what a load of bullshit the "well, P&P systems just don't fit into a digital platform..." is. GURPS' armor system would be perfectly translatable to the PC medium, there is no reason that they have to work out all this shit from the ground up. I'm not saying "use GURPS" obviously, I'm just saying: either hire someone to do this for you/with you or use an existing system, or at least base yours strongly upon one. These guys are not RPG system designers, they are video game designers. How is it they can be so reductionist in their view of another field of work that they can claim to be as good at it as people who do it professionally without bashing an eyelid?

Like herostratus, however, I'm confident that it will turn out alright, since villain's got us covered:

Disappointed. It will quite likely end up being a shitty rehash of western fantasy cliches + LARPer catering.

I'm very glad to hear you say this - mostly because you have been wrong on every single other prediction you made in regards to this game, so to hear you say this is reassuring.

 

[villain of the story]

When I mention history and real life, I do it from a practical viewpoint. To make examples using mail and plate:

MAIL

PLATE:
.

Examples of lamellar armor and shit, please! Curious to see how you'd represent it.

I don't know much about lamellar armour and shit. Or, more precisely, lamellar armour is too wide a category, it seems, including both metal and leather in exclusive or mixed variations. At any rate, I imagine it would come down to a few relatively factual parameters such as rigidity (for mobility and reflex modifiers), weight and weight distribution (for fatigue or similar), material (to rule whether a hit can reach the flesh through the armour) and configuration of the material, and derived parameters for abstraction such as susceptibility to cut/slash/thrust/blunt/missile (eg. damage threshold) and difficulty to hit exposed parts (eg. AC).

I imagine that the values for derived parameters, whatever they might be, could be calculated from the former. That's how weapon parameters are handled in JA2 1.13; the authors use real-world data to arrive at various derived stats to be used in-game.

 

[Bulba]

RTwP (before even the count-down to KS emerged) ? Check.
Forgotten Realms derivative? Check.
Cool-downs? Check.
Level-scaling? Check.
KS not making $4M? Check.
Yes, I have predicted all of these and so many others that came true, I don't even remember all of them any longer at this point. But do stick to bullshitting if it relieves you of your inferiority complex. I pity you, though.

If you think that the game will be total shit why did you donate?

I didn't donate either.

ain't good enough excuse, you'll have to make a new acc to wash off the"race traitor" shame. uahahahaha

because we never know for sure. Kiill all and let god decide whether you are real or fake.

 

[Jaesun]

He can just log into his denizsi alt.

 

[Scruffy]

The hell is going on here. It’s 2012 (2013 almost) and we’re still discussing armor penalties? Just make dexterity bonuses ACTUALLY meaningful in the way Age of Decadence does: you are agile and lightly armored? You are difficult to hit, but when they do hit you, it hurts. You are wearing a fucking tank armor? You are easy to hit, but hits deal less damage.


Medium armor should make sense only in the case of strong AND agile characters, so they can wear them as if it were light armor, but get the benefits of damage reduction if hit.


So, agile but not strong characters = difficult to hit, but when hit it hurts
Strong but not agile characters = can bear more weight, benefit from it but are easier to hit
Strong AND agile characters (YES! BARBARIANS YOU GUESSED IT! GOOD JOB!), they can use either armor with the relative benefits but a medium armor will grant them the quickness of movement and being difficult to hit WHILE providing them with a bit superior protection if actually hit.


Make every type of armor give you a “movement” penalty based on strength (if you are not strong enough to wear this, you are still benefitting from the protection, but are slower than someone who has enough strength to comfortably wear this armor, so less attacks per round or whatever) and there you go.


This way, a bunch of gibberlings attacking a heavily armored character will be hitting him more often, but dealing close to zero damage (because PLATE BEATS CLAWS) while having more difficulties hitting an agile character but dealing him more damage when hit (because CLAWS TEAR LEATHER). So, jumping in a group of even low level monsters would be dangerous for a lightly armored character, who should avoid direct combat with groups and rely on hit and run/hide/whatever tactics, but would be ok for a heavily armored character. Conversely, a big and slow ogre should be relatively easy to defeat for a lightly armored character, who can hit quickly and avoid being hit, but should be difficult for a heavily armored character who is slower and is going to get hit more easily by the ogre’s blunt force hits.


This creates a usefulness for both type of characters (and hey, rogues become useful as something else than an extra member of the group whose only job is to open chests and disarm traps!) and gives you an extra layer of complexity in fights, instead of going the retarded WOW way of “ME BIG ARMOR ME STAY IN FRONT AND GET HIT”.
Arrows and bolts should deal very little damage to plate wearers and quite more damage to cloth/leather, while averaging out on medium armor (mail still suffers against crossbow bolts for instance), so a heavily armored character should fare quite ok against rangers, thanks to shields and stuff, and should kill them easily if he can close the gap (making heavy armor in the open wilderness a less than optimal choice, but a very effective one in closed spaces). The key is, of course, that rangers have LIMITED ammos, so a heavily armored character should be able to hang in there behind his shield and then attack when the lightly armored rangers are out of ammos. An average footman’s quiver (archers on horses or behind the walls during a siege are a different matter) holds about 12-20 arrows. This makes heavy armor effective against archers and crossbowmen.


The downside of heavy armor is that you can only wear it for so many minutes/hours before becoming exhausted by the weight, now THAT would be an interesting thing to develop…


Edit
The obvious problem with Baldur’s Gate and FR in general is of course that a magical suit of plate armor weights as much as a feather pillow, so no point using anything else. Remember the plate armor +3 you found in Durlag’s Tower, that would wight LESS than a studded leather armor? Yeah, that’s… silly… Obviously if you can get metal to be lighter than leather, then no point in using anything else, and if it’s THAT light, even a mage should be able to wear it without too much difficulty.
But to me that’s just a design flaw that makes no sense at all. The natural consequence of that is that with powerful enough magic, you wear a +5 suit of armor that’s half a meter thick as a pajama. But then again, with powerful enough magic, you should be able to make chain mail to be as light as air, etcetera.
So, either drastically reduce how light magic can make metal, or armor will become a non issue the more you advance with the game, because high level plate will always be better than anything else. So, to be meaningful, armor needs to still have cons even at high “levels”.

 

[villain of the story]

First off: The fact that some people cannot into abstract mechanics instead of direct realism, even supposed fucking cRPG fans, is always most delightfully displayed in the debate of realistic armor mechanics. I'm enjoying myself, go on.

Second: I just don't get it. GURPS has been doing realistic yet functioning armor mechanics for more than a decade. Why is it still the hottest topic when people discuss realism and cRPGs?

What are you referring to? Personally, I'm not cheering for "direct realism" but rather, authenticity which is based on realism, which is also what drives the mechanics of -thanks for bringing it up- GURPS, ie. inspired by realism, something IE games DIDN'T do nor did 90% of cRPGs out there.

Even in the prestigious Codex Workshop, people should sometimes accept the fact that someone has been working with their ideas for a lifetime and maybe might have solved some stuff they are considering.

That's not always a valid reason to use any particular system. I much prefer Codex Martialis and The Riddle of Steel, which are late-comers to the party compared to GURPS, over GURPS for martial combat, especially the latter, due to the specialised focus on their fields and the very straightforward and fast applications of it. So, bringing up and discussing mechanics "supposedly already perfected by such and such" is and will always be a perfectly valid and relevant practice. As long as the participators are familiar with the pre-existing good examples and are offering subjective improvements over them or just different approaches.

This Kickstarter Update is the perfect example of what a load of bullshit the "well, P&P systems just don't fit into a digital platform..." is. GURPS' armor system would be perfectly translatable to the PC medium, there is no reason that they have to work out all this shit from the ground up. I'm not saying "use GURPS" obviously, I'm just saying: either hire someone to do this for you/with you or use an existing system, or at least base yours strongly upon one. These guys are not RPG system designers, they are video game designers. How is it they can be so reductionist in their view of another field of work that they can claim to be as good at it as people who do it professionally without bashing an eyelid?

Because they are illiterate libtards who grew up on a couple systems and now can no longer think on terms outside the mental fixedness brought on by their over-reliance on familiarity and are too apathetic to care about and study new systems. The statement that "they can do more complex calculations on PC that would be cumbersome in PnP" is a testament alone. You don't need more complex calculations. If you do, you have already fucked something up along the way. And it shows in every game Obsidian have so far developed.

Like herostratus, however, I'm confident that it will turn out alright, since villain's got us covered:

ET TV GRVNCER