Development Info Mount & Blade 0.700 released

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Mount & Blade

If you've been following the Oblivion news lately, you'll know that the folks at Bethesda think <a href="http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=152702#152702">one programmer and one artist</a> just can't make good mounted combat. Well, <a href="http://www.taleworlds.com/">Mount & Blade</a> is the independently developed game that proves them wrong (it, quite literally, has been developed by one programmer and one artist).
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<blockquote>Combining a sophisticated, dynamic game world and intense medieval swordfighting action, Mount&Blade strives to create a game experience never seen before. Playing Mount&Blade, you will venture through a world filled with daring enemies as well as friendly groups that will come to your aid or need yours. In a land torn by constant danger, raids and skirmishes, you will raise and lead your own war band, commanding dozens of hardened soldiers. You will hunt down your enemies following the tracks they leave behind. And you will fight epic battles where arrows cut the air with deadly hisses, axes and swords hack with fury, and horses and men clash into a violent melee.</blockquote>
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With <a href="http://www.taleworlds.com/mb_ss.html">some good graphics</a> and fantastic combat, be sure to <a href="http://www.taleworlds.com/mb_download.html">download the latest version</a>. It's a try before you buy model so you can download the game and play it until your character reaches level 6 without having to buy it. While the game is currently focussed more on the combat, greater RPG and stronger story elements are planned in future updates. Be sure to check it out.
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PS: The game also has crossbows.
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Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.taleworlds.com">Tale Worlds</A>

 

[Tintin]

If you've been following the Oblivion news lately, you'll know that the folks at Bethesda think one programmer and one artist just can't make good mounted combat. Well, Mount & Blade is the independently developed game that proves them wrong (it, quite literally, has been developed by one programmer and one artist).

Cause we all know making good professional-level mounted combat in a game like Oblivion takes the exact same amount of effort as making mounted combat in a game dedicated to mounted combat.

The game also has crossbows.

omg best game ever!

 

[jasondragon]

I'm lazy. Can someone offer a good link to some ideas on how to start off in M&B? I'm irrated with the tournament because half the time I Get a bow (and I suck as bows and then lose) or I get the sword/shield and dominate.

Any suggestions?

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

Too bad the novelty of fighting on a horse runs out after an hour or two (and how repetative everything else gets). And the fact that there's barely anything to the game besides fighting (B-B-B-BUT MOUNTED COMBAT!).

But yeah, OMG MOuNTEd COMBAT ROX0rs lawl.

 

[Excalibur]

Too bad the novelty of fighting on a horse runs out after an hour or two (and how repetative everything else gets). And the fact that there's barely anything to the game besides fighting (B-B-B-BUT MOUNTED COMBAT!).

But yeah, OMG MOuNTEd COMBAT ROX0rs lawl.

BOOOM HEADSHOT!!!!

 

[MarFish]

Too bad the novelty of fighting on a horse runs out after an hour or two (and how repetative everything else gets). And the fact that there's barely anything to the game besides fighting (B-B-B-BUT MOUNTED COMBAT!).

But yeah, OMG MOuNTEd COMBAT ROX0rs lawl.

I couldn't agree more. After a few hours, it's all circle around the enemy and kill them with arrows or lance. It boils down to a very predictable and exploitable AI. It's nice to see mounted combat in a game, but really, comparing it to a game like Oblivion shows just how much certain people understand about this industry.

 

[Crichton]

Cause we all know making good professional-level mounted combat in a game like Oblivion takes the exact same amount of effort as making mounted combat in a game dedicated to mounted combat.

Why would it take more? M&B has any number of faults (graphical and gameplay-related), but in terms of its animations, it looks better than that oblivion video. I can understand why mounted combat would be such a headache for 2d-games with sprites or f*cked-up "real-time turn-based" games like NWN, but if you have a real physics engine like M&B, Oblivion or for that matter, gothic, than mounted combat isn't any harder to implement than any other set of animations. So bethesda doesn't have an excuse. They decided to spend their effort on shiny high-res armor and NPC munchables when they've got a game with horses and no mounted attack animations and a dialog system from the 1980's. That said, I may still buy oblvion because the exploration in morrowind kind of grew on me.

 

[MarFish]

Cause we all know making good professional-level mounted combat in a game like Oblivion takes the exact same amount of effort as making mounted combat in a game dedicated to mounted combat.

Why would it take more?

ROFL. HRHRHRHRHR.

 

[corvax]

Cause we all know making good professional-level mounted combat in a game like Oblivion takes the exact same amount of effort as making mounted combat in a game dedicated to mounted combat.

Why would it take more?

ROFL. HRHRHRHRHR.

I second that motion.
Can't really compare what essentially is ONLY a mounted combat simulation to a full fledged game.

 

[Crichton]

The reason all mount and blade is a combat simulation is that it only has one artist and one programmer. If bethesda were to alocate one artist and one programmer to mounted comba in oblivion, why would adding it to their 3d physics engine be any more complicated than any other 3d physics engine? Animations are animations, though they obviously aren't a priority at bethesda.....

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I couldn't agree more. After a few hours, it's all circle around the enemy and kill them with arrows or lance. It boils down to a very predictable and exploitable AI. It's nice to see mounted combat in a game, but really, comparing it to a game like Oblivion shows just how much certain people understand about this industry.

Given that most battles are fairly large, I don't think you'd want an AI that's much more advanced than it is now. When you have to face a pack of bandits that outnumber you and your puny force of low-rank, pissant men two or more to one out in the wild, exploiting the timing of the AI is about all you can do to win. In the beginning when you're fairly weak, that's about ALL you can do to win the larger battles.

 

[Section8]

I think the criticism of Oblivion with regard to its mounted combat is quite petty, all in all.

Doing mounted combat right would have involved a significant amount of dedicated time from more than one programmer and more than one artist and a good chunk of time spent in QA.

Nobody has said that mounted combat can't be done by a single programmer, the assertion that has been made by Bethesda employees is that a significant amount of effort would be involved in an Oblivion specific implementation of mounted combat. And that's exactly right.

Mount and Blade, which I quite enjoy, has the luxury of tailoring its game systems around mounted combat, while Oblivion would have to squeeze it into an existing system. Plus, Mount and Blade is, at this stage, an action game with RPG elements, which works. Oblivion, being a TES game, should be, by design, more reliant on character stats than player skill, which would mean an entirely different implementation.

Mounted combat would a whole new dimension to the game, and would require a great deal of manpower across the whole dev team to be a worthwhile feature, and so I'm hardly surprised its been cut. Besides, there are plenty of positive things to say about Mount and Blade without the pointless criticism of Oblivion.

I couldn't agree more. After a few hours, it's all circle around the enemy and kill them with arrows or lance. It boils down to a very predictable and exploitable AI.

The AI seems to be getting better with each version. It may just be the fact that I've started from scratch, but combat seems a great deal more difficult now, mainly due to better "anticipation" on the behalf of melee opponents.

Why would it take more? M&B has any number of faults (graphical and gameplay-related), but in terms of its animations, it looks better than that oblivion video. ...if you have a real physics engine like M&B, Oblivion or for that matter, gothic, than mounted combat isn't any harder to implement than any other set of animations.

Animations are hardly the only required component in adding mounted combat. Creating the animations is fairly trivial work for any competent artist, and it wouldn't be too difficult to implement them, but other systems require a lot more thought and effort. The AI alone becomes a great deal more complex when you're dealing with something that has inertia. Moving a humanoid is simple, because it can just walk/run to a point in the world. At its most complex, moving a humanoid involves plotting lines between path nodes. Moving something with a limited turn rate, rate of acceleration/deceleration, requires an exponential amount more work. All of a sudden, movement involves plotting curves that pass through path nodes, and manipulation of a much greater set of variables. And that's just movement.

 

[MarFish]

I think the criticism of Oblivion with regard to its mounted combat is quite petty, all in all.

Doing mounted combat right would have involved a significant amount of dedicated time from more than one programmer and more than one artist and a good chunk of time spent in QA.

Nobody has said that mounted combat can't be done by a single programmer, the assertion that has been made by Bethesda employees is that a significant amount of effort would be involved in an Oblivion specific implementation of mounted combat. And that's exactly right.

Mount and Blade, which I quite enjoy, has the luxury of tailoring its game systems around mounted combat, while Oblivion would have to squeeze it into an existing system. Plus, Mount and Blade is, at this stage, an action game with RPG elements, which works. Oblivion, being a TES game, should be, by design, more reliant on character stats than player skill, which would mean an entirely different implementation.

Mounted combat would a whole new dimension to the game, and would require a great deal of manpower across the whole dev team to be a worthwhile feature, and so I'm hardly surprised its been cut. Besides, there are plenty of positive things to say about Mount and Blade without the pointless criticism of Oblivion.

I couldn't agree more. After a few hours, it's all circle around the enemy and kill them with arrows or lance. It boils down to a very predictable and exploitable AI.

The AI seems to be getting better with each version. It may just be the fact that I've started from scratch, but combat seems a great deal more difficult now, mainly due to better "anticipation" on the behalf of melee opponents.

Why would it take more? M&B has any number of faults (graphical and gameplay-related), but in terms of its animations, it looks better than that oblivion video. ...if you have a real physics engine like M&B, Oblivion or for that matter, gothic, than mounted combat isn't any harder to implement than any other set of animations.

Animations are hardly the only required component in adding mounted combat. Creating the animations is fairly trivial work for any competent artist, and it wouldn't be too difficult to implement them, but other systems require a lot more thought and effort. The AI alone becomes a great deal more complex when you're dealing with something that has inertia. Moving a humanoid is simple, because it can just walk/run to a point in the world. At its most complex, moving a humanoid involves plotting lines between path nodes. Moving something with a limited turn rate, rate of acceleration/deceleration, requires an exponential amount more work. All of a sudden, movement involves plotting curves that pass through path nodes, and manipulation of a much greater set of variables. And that's just movement.

I applaud your post. And your idealistic hope that certain morons here would actually listen to facts rather than their own little imagination about how easy it is to make games

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Cause we all know making good professional-level mounted combat in a game like Oblivion takes the exact same amount of effort as making mounted combat in a game dedicated to mounted combat.

Why would it take more?

... because apparently, "Profeshunal Developers" need to do things "right" which obviously means throwing more people at a problem then it actually needs.

M&B has any number of faults (graphical and gameplay-related), but in terms of its animations, it looks better than that oblivion video.

The combat also feels much more like "guys bashing each other" than Oblivion has seemingly been able to accomplish. And remember, Oblivion needed more people to do that "right"!

Nobody has said that mounted combat can't be done by a single programmer, the assertion that has been made by Bethesda employees is that a significant amount of effort would be involved in an Oblivion specific implementation of mounted combat. And that's exactly right.

Why? Given the number of developers they've thrown at Oblivion, the only thing they've seemingly been able to do "right" so far, is the forest. Bethesda could throw hundreds of people at it and still fail. I think that's more a reflection on the company and their people, then it is on the complexity of the task their doing.

However, while doing mounted combat "right" in Oblivion would take hundreds of hours and lots of people, I'm fairly confident that putting a good story and some decent quests into M&B won't take anywhere near as long nor require as many people.

What M&B shows is that you don't need a lot of people to do an excellent job. You just need good people who know what they're doing and are willing to give it a shot.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

What M&B shows is that you don't need a lot of people to do an excellent job. You just need good people who know what they're doing and are willing to give it a shot.

Haha, kind of reminds me of Fan Made Fallout. 30+ team members and jack shit to show for it. :wink:

 

[Section8]

Why? Given the number of developers they've thrown at Oblivion, the only thing they've seemingly been able to do "right" so far, is the forest. Bethesda could throw hundreds of people at it and still fail. I think that's more a reflection on the company and their people, then it is on the complexity of the task their doing.

I don't think it's really a question of the competence of the programmers or artists, its more an issue of production and design pushing the game in questionable directions, when looking from a hardcore RPGer's perspective. But, even so, it seems that Oblivion is likely to improve upon the many, many failings of Morrowind, most of which stemmed directly from poor design decisions.

However, while doing mounted combat "right" in Oblivion would take hundreds of hours and lots of people, I'm fairly confident that putting a good story and some decent quests into M&B won't take anywhere near as long nor require as many people.

True enough, and the biggest advantage Mount and Blade holds over Oblivion is the fact that so much of its gameplay content is procedural, which is the best thing a small developmen team can strive for, since if it's done well, it reduces the demands on scripted content.

What M&B shows is that you don't need a lot of people to do an excellent job. You just need good people who know what they're doing and are willing to give it a shot.

I think that in the case of most indie developers, it's actually a boon being so limited in what you can achieve, since it keeps the focus firmly on what's simple and effective, otherwise the temptation is to substitute quantity for its superior cousin, quality. Of course, every now and then, AAA titles do actually come close to living up to their grossly bloated budgets, like GTA:San Andreas.

 

[Hazelnut]

Jeez - Why the fuck to so many people seem to care about the lack of mounted combat in Oblivion? I don't get it! Yeah, sure it'd be nice, but it's not really that important is it?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I don't think that is what Bethesda said. They said they decided that it will take considerable time of at least a small team to do this right. How long is M&B in development now, and still a beta? How many hours have those two worked on it - what ever it is, it is probably significant. Now, I think they SHOULD have invested the extra time and money, but thats different from saying they decided based on false premises.

 

[EEVIAC]

Doing mounted combat right would have involved a significant amount of dedicated time from more than one programmer and more than one artist and a good chunk of time spent in QA.

Was it MSFD who originally posted this? Anyway, its such a pissy argument. If Bethesda were only interested in gameplay functions that worked right, there wouldn't be any combat, there wouldn't be any dialogue, there wouldn't be any NPC's, and there wouldn't be a character system in Oblivion (based on their most recent work.) All you'd have is an environment, architecture, a construction set (to build your own environments and architecture) and maybe characters walking around like chickens to add some comedy.

When you can afford to send off programers to study with geologists, as well as cut features and add new pointless features, the "lack of time, money and manpower" argument is bunk.

 

[Micmu]

Oh please. Not mounted combat + Oblivion again. Isn't the game dumbened down enough already? Do you really want another action RPG with emphasis on action? What else would be removed then for the sake of hot action?

I'm downloading Mount & Blade to see why is it being compared to RP games...

 

[Pr()ZaC]

micmu, after playing M&B you'll never be the same again...

 

[corvax]

Oh please. Not mounted combat + Oblivion again. Isn't the game dumbened down enough already? Do you really want another action RPG with emphasis on action? What else would be removed then for the sake of hot action?

I'm downloading Mount & Blade to see why is it being compared to RP games...

You just gotta be talking out of your ass now. Not implementing mounted combat is nowhere near dumbing down a game. None of the previous TES games, including the" holy super advanced" Daggerfall, had mounted combat. Things that were NEVER there not being implemented is not dumbing down. Moreover including mounted combat would most likely add even MORE action than RPG elements given the nature of TES combat. The whole issue isn't even that big of a deal anyway so just stop jumping on the bandwagon here.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Any word if they fixed the "not starting" problem?

 

[Micmu]

micmu, after playing M&B you'll never be the same again...

Action games don't "change" me. Occasional quick fun only.

You just gotta be talking out of your ass now. Not implementing mounted combat is nowhere near dumbing down a game. None of the previous TES games, including the" holy super advanced" Daggerfall, had mounted combat. Things that were NEVER there not being implemented is not dumbing down. Moreover including mounted combat would most likely add even MORE action than RPG elements given the nature of TES combat. The whole issue isn't even that big of a deal anyway so just stop jumping on the bandwagon here.

I'm against mounted combat, that's what I said. I didn't bitch because it is not implemented. I bitched because implementing it will be another step towards hot actiony gameplay.

 

[kathode]

We get closer and closer to the day when every single news post on RPGCodex relates to Oblivion somehow. I can't wait